Zaharakis, how good do u think he can be.

[Kong]

You don't have to be a star, or even an above average player, to be in a premiership team.

 

[ant555]

You don't have to be a star, or even an above average player, to be in a premiership team.

No but to continually make the side most weeks you have to be above average, even more so when the side you play in is based around a roster of very good players that have a game plan that requires everyone to do their part on the day which takes well above average work rate and concentration.
Even more so when you are asked to do a bit in the midfield.

 

[Kong]

Alan Toovey. Above average player is he?

 

[Smyth94]

Yes you also have to be good to get into a premiership side but Collingwood weren't a premiership side when Beams was drafted.

There are other things that come into play such as team balance, ability to play a specific role, weakness in a specific position etc etc. Collingwood needed a medium foward/mid who could kick goals and also push into the midfield to put pressure on the likes of Medhurst etc Beams was the guy, he got his chance and held his spot and became an important player in a premiership side two seasons down the track. Who's to say Zaharakis couldn't have done the same thing had he been drafted by Collingwood? I don't see why not personally, he has speed, balance, skill and good overhead ability.

With the amount of I50's Collingwood generate IMO Zaka would look like a million bucks in that side.

 

[ant555]

Alan Toovey. Above average player is he?

Yes he is above average. Has played 50 games in the last two seasons in a side that has only lost 12 games in that period.
Sorry but if you have played every game in a two year period in a side that has finished 3rd and then 1st then you must be above average.

 

[ant555]

Yes you also have to be good to get into a premiership side but Collingwood weren't a premiership side when Beams was drafted.

There are other things that come into play such as team balance, ability to play a specific role, weakness in a specific position etc etc. Collingwood needed a medium foward/mid who could kick goals and also push into the midfield to put pressure on the likes of Medhurst etc Beams was the guy, he got his chance and held his spot and became an important player in a premiership side two seasons down the track. Who's to say Zaharakis couldn't have done the same thing had he been drafted by Collingwood? I don't see why not personally, he has speed, balance, skill and good overhead ability.

With the amount of I50's Collingwood generate IMO Zaka would look like a million bucks in that side.

The fact that Collingwood where not a premiership side when he was drafted has nothing to do with anything, so what they where a top 4 side which is still a fair stretch in front of where we are at.

My whole argument is you have to have something going for you if you can break into a top 4 side in your first year and then play 43 games in that two year period compared with breaking into a middle of the road side.

The quality of the sides has to be different as one is playing in prelim finals and one is changing coaches as they only won 8 games.
The problem here is people do not like question marks being raised....

 

[Kong]

Agree to disagree on Toovey.

Don't get me wrong, I know Beams can play, but so could Ashley Hansen during 2006.

Zaka's got a long way to go, I just think he has a lot more potential than Beams.

 

[ant555]

Agree to disagree on Toovey.

Don't get me wrong, I know Beams can play, but so could Ashley Hansen during 2006.

Zaka's got a long way to go, I just think he has a lot more potential than Beams.

Hanson also had a heap of injuries, lots of reasons why players lose form.
As far as Toovey goes recruiters manage to keep their jobs if the keep finding players who have played 60 plus games at the end of their 4th season.

 

[Kong]

Lightly off topic, but do you guys have KPIs like that?

Eg games played, awards won etc

Or is I more just an overall assessment of your performance?

 

[Smyth94]

The fact that Collingwood where not a premiership side when he was drafted has nothing to do with anything, so what they where a top 4 side which is still a fair stretch in front of where we are at.

How is it not relevant? Collingwood of 2010 are miles ahead of where they were at the start of 2009, it was easier to get a game at Collingwood in 2009 than it was in 2010. Yes they were a top four side in '09 but they still seemed a fair way off the pace - Geelong smashed them by over 10 goals in the prelim, it was men vs boys.

My whole argument is you have to have something going for you if you can break into a top 4 side in your first year and then play 43 games in that two year period compared with breaking into a middle of the road side.

I agree entirely. Beams has performed magnificently to date. Whoever is saying that Beams is overrated has no clue. My point is that had Collingwood drafted Zaka instead of Beams, I would see not much difference in their performance apart from the fact that Beams hit the ground running in Year 1. Beams had much more impact in his first year due to his ability to contribute in the midfield rotations, this is where he had the edge over Zaka in Year 1 - last year Zaka made himself a lock in Essendon's side from Round 1 - I would say that he would be in just about every side's best 25 comfortably.

The quality of the sides has to be different as one is playing in prelim finals and one is changing coaches as they only won 8 games.
The problem here is people do not like question marks being raised....

What question marks? The only thing I see here is Zaka is getting a little overhyped because we are so desperate for that next star to come through we begin to pump the living daylights of the tyres of our promising types.

 

[ant555]

Lightly off topic, but do you guys have KPIs like that?

Eg games played, awards won etc

Or is I more just an overall assessment of your performance?

Always good to have the players in your top 80 lists each year playing as many games as possible as all clubs keep a record over a period so they can question your input over a period of time.
Not an official KPI of mine but it is good for your reputation when they come looking for an opinion on a call between players.

 

[Summer Nights]

Yes he is above average. Has played 50 games in the last two seasons in a side that has only lost 12 games in that period.
Sorry but if you have played every game in a two year period in a side that has finished 3rd and then 1st then you must be above average.

Absolutely rubbish statement. Laughable.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

A lot of the kids got into the Pies side almost by default, there were players like Lockyer, O'Bree, Medhurst, Marty Clarke, Burns, Wakelin, Anthony, who played in the 08 prelim and were out of favour or completely gone by half way through 09. They needed to be replaced and kids got games just cause they were there.

One thing the Pies have done exceptionally well is had senior players all over the park to give the kids very little responsibility and aloud them to play freely.

 

[yaco55]

Alan Toovey. Above average player is he?

You need to compare like with like.

Toovey think was a fourth year player, and Beams a second year player when they played in a premiership.

Anyway, Toovey is a good, ordinary player.

Yes average players play in premiership teams - Sometimes they play in a couple of games at the right time of the year - Beams played every game.

And people rap Sidebottom - with justification - But Sidebottom finished 8th in the B and F - and Beams finished 6th in the B and F.

Good effort by a young average player - Gee, Collingwood must have produced the most average Premiership team in recent history.

 

[yaco55]

Yes you also have to be good to get into a premiership side but Collingwood weren't a premiership side when Beams was drafted.

There are other things that come into play such as team balance, ability to play a specific role, weakness in a specific position etc etc. Collingwood needed a medium foward/mid who could kick goals and also push into the midfield to put pressure on the likes of Medhurst etc Beams was the guy, he got his chance and held his spot and became an important player in a premiership side two seasons down the track. Who's to say Zaharakis couldn't have done the same thing had he been drafted by Collingwood? I don't see why not personally, he has speed, balance, skill and good overhead ability.

With the amount of I50's Collingwood generate IMO Zaka would look like a million bucks in that side.

I agree with Ant's argument.

Too much denigration of selected Collingwood players and pumping up of Essendon players.

I rate both beams and Zaharakis highly - Posted earlier that i expect Zaharakis to be a slightly better player.

 

[Smyth94]

You need to compare like with like.

Toovey think was a fourth year player, and Beams a second year player when they played in a premiership.

Anyway, Toovey is a good, ordinary player.

Yes average players play in premiership teams - Sometimes they play in a couple of games at the right time of the year - Beams played every game.

And people rap Sidebottom - with justification - But Sidebottom finished 8th in the B and F - and Beams finished 6th in the B and F.

Good effort by a young average player - Gee, Collingwood must have produced the most average Premiership team in recent history.

Who is saying Beams and Sidebottom are average? The argument is whether a player such as Zaharakis could've made such an impact (vs Beams) at Collingwood if he were drafted by them. Based on his 2010 season I suggest that he would've performed extremely well.

 

[Slattery_20]

I think there's spliff all between them on talent/potential (a bit harder to quantify, admittedly), but Beams is way, way ahead on ability to produce every week.

 

[ant555]

Absolutely rubbish statement. Laughable.

Quality response
next time why not just wheel out the old bigfooty standard, "he is s**t"

Sorry but the laughable thing is you have NFI

 

[Summer Nights]

You think Toovey is above average. Laughable.

Apparently this means a player is above average:

"Sorry but if you have played every game in a two year period in a side that has finished 3rd and then 1st then you must be above average."

Rubbish. It's a team game. Great teams can carry average players. If that's your justification then you have NFI mate.

No you are.

 

[Slattery_20]

Thread's going really, really, really well now. Would recommend.

 

[Kong]

Once this little interval's done, it'll get back on topic to Zaka.

 

[Summer Nights]

Sorry, back on topic...

Zaka may not be a star, but he will have special games.

I think he'll be an A+ grader sometimes, and a B grader others.

 

[ant555]

You think Toovey is above average. Laughable.

Apparently this means a player is above average:

"Sorry but if you have played every game in a two year period in a side that has finished 3rd and then 1st then you must be above average."

Rubbish. It's a team game. Great teams can carry average players. If that's your justification then you have NFI mate.

No you are.

Lets look at things , we are talking above average are we not ? not good, or very good or super star, above average.

Average players play 50 odd games over a 6 or so year period, below average players generally play 20, 30 games (baring injury stopping them from playing more of course) while poor players only ever play a few games if any.
Great teams tend have more above average players on their lists as it is what gives them the depth to be a great team.

I really suspect that personal bias has a lot to do with how fans rate players in other sides. I do my own ratings based on the fact i have seen 80% of the current players come through the system before being drafted.
To get back onto topic a bit here is a comparison, i rate Beams as very good, Zaka as good and Toovey as above average and someone like Nahas who is a fringe player as the standard for average.

When you see 150 plus kids at under 18 level every year you get an appreciation for those who can consistently make AFL sides as above average and it is a simple fact that those who continually make good sides in the 16 to 22nd spots are better than those who make the same spots week in and week out in the bottom sides.

 

[coleman10]

I liken Zaka to a young Mark Mercuri, but with probably more ground level pace. And remember, Mercs debuted in 1993 and it was not until 1999 that he peaked with a 2nd place in the Brownlow.
I wouldn't expect Zaka to hit his peak until about 2013/2014 and then I think he will be among the elite in the comp.
Too much expectation is heaped upon young players these days.

 

[lamaros]

I think he could be a decent player, but he had to get a lot more of the ball first.

As for the whole Collingwood thing... He seemed to get picked ahead of Prismall last year, and Prismall was making one of the great Geelong sides on form before he was injured.

I think Zaha would get picked for Collingwood easily. Though not in direct competition for Beams' spot or anything like that.