Destination clubs - an equalisation loophole?

[Ry009]

No disrespect but how do you link North with the Anderson deal with Crows/hawks/cats ? You guys have just taken a huge risk with your pick 15 for a kid who bottom line has not done much, even in the VFL. Its not like Anderson was a dangerfield and you just got s**t done.

By virtue of the fact clubs I mentioned got stuff done relatively quickly without saying a word and are realistic about each respective trade.

Meanwhile Dons/Tigers/Blues are playing s**t out in the media and still not getting deals done when they've had ample time to get it sorted.

 

[Tiger71]

By virtue of the fact clubs I mentioned got stuff done relatively quickly without saying a word and are realistic about each respective trade.

Meanwhile Dons/Tigers/Blues are playing s**t out in the media and still not getting deals done when they've had ample time to get it sorted.

That is what I dont get. Hawks would snap up pick 15 for anderson, the only delay is convincing North....how that credits North has me stumped. Put it this way, we are about to sign jacob Townsend, a kid highly rated by GWS who offered him a 2-3 year deal to stay, other clubs wanted him but he came to us, all confirmed by Leon Cameron, yet we part with pick in the third round....deals done quickly.

Yarran deal is taking time as we have work to do with getting them what they want, that does not make us incompetent, just smart. Doing a deal fast is down to two factors, 1 a win/win for both side or 2 one side clearly wins and the other side have no idea there pants have been pulled down.

Again this is not a attack at your club, just your point of view.

 

[Ry009]

That is what I dont get. Hawks would snap up pick 15 for anderson, the only delay is convincing North....how that credits North has me stumped..

That's subjective and your view (of which you are entitled to)

Put it this way, we are about to sign jacob Townsend, a kid highly rated by GWS who offered him a 2-3 year deal to stay, other clubs wanted him but he came to us, all confirmed by Leon Cameron, yet we part with pick in the third round....deals done quickly.

Yarran deal is taking time as we have work to do with getting them what they want, that does not make us incompetent, just smart. Doing a deal fast is down to two factors, 1 a win/win for both side or 2 one side clearly wins and the other side have no idea there pants have been pulled down.

Again this is not a attack at your club, just your point of view.

Im not comparing players, im just pointing out that trades require two parties to both be realistic about the situation in front of them not playing the 'dont screw us' card.

Ill put my hand up and retract my comment on Blues and Tigers haven't really played s**t out in the media, its more Essendon and Collingwood. Yarran deal isnt as relevant to my point.

Props on discussing without getting into a slanging match btw.

That being said, we're getting a bit off topic though, I think it is laughable that the OP suggested Collingwood as a destination club for stars.

Outside of Luke Ball who didn't have much gas in the tank anyway, who have they landed that isn't above 'good solid player'?

Missed out on Judd and Nick Stevens, so can they not attract players or are they just difficult to trade with?

 

[Mick39]

Outside of Luke Ball who didn't have much gas in the tank anyway, who have they landed that isn't above 'good solid player'?

Missed out on Judd and Nick Stevens, so can they not attract players or are they just difficult to trade with?

Ball & Jolly turned us from a Top 4 team to a premiership team in 1 season, something your club is unable to do with your recent recruiting efforts.

As for Judd, it was a blessing we missed on him. We wouldn't have won a premiership if he chose us.

 

[Tiger71]

That's subjective and your view (of which you are entitled to)



Im not comparing players, im just pointing out that trades require two parties to both be realistic about the situation in front of them not playing the 'dont screw us' card.

Ill put my hand up and retract my comment on Blues and Tigers haven't really played s**t out in the media, its more Essendon and Collingwood. Yarran deal isnt as relevant to my point.

Props on discussing without getting into a slanging match btw.

That being said, we're getting a bit off topic though, I think it is laughable that the OP suggested Collingwood as a destination club for stars.

Outside of Luke Ball who didn't have much gas in the tank anyway, who have they landed that isn't above 'good solid player'?

Missed out on Judd and Nick Stevens, so can they not attract players or are they just difficult to trade with?

Thanks for taking my post and questions/opinion the right way.

Nobody can say North got a raw deal or a great deal till 3 years imo. North might very well have got a steal, time will tell. I will say its a brave move by your recruiters.

 

[Ry009]

Ball & Jolly turned us from a Top 4 team to a premiership team in 1 season, something your club is unable to do with your recent recruiting efforts.

As for Judd, it was a blessing we missed on him. We wouldn't have won a premiership if he chose us.

OP is talking about 'stars' going to Collingwood.

Neither of those players were at their peak or at 'star' status when they came to you.

Not a dig at the Pies, just outlining that the OP has his head up his arse.

 

[Mick39]

OP is talking about 'stars' going to Collingwood.

Neither of those players were at their peak or at 'star' status when they came to you.

Not a dig at the Pies, just outlining that the OP has his head up his arse.

Ball got 24 disposals in an AFL Grand Final the last game he played for St. Kilda, was a former club captain and All Australian. Kicked the winning goal in one of the greatest ever PF's in history and was a vital player in a premiership. That is a star player in anyone's book.

As for Jolly, he was at his peak when he transferred to Collingwood. Kicked 2 goals and had over 40 hitouts in a GF.

 

[MC_9]

Well this has backfired.

Carlisle still wants to play for St Kilda over a destination club.

Otherwise the deal would be done.

 

[B4Bear]

Well this has backfired.

Carlisle still wants to play for St Kilda over a destination club.

Otherwise the deal would be done.

Not really though.

You have two picks in the top 20. As your club said, first time in forever since that has happened.

Hawthorn use their picks as currency, a means unto an end.

They place no emotional attachment to the pick number, they are looking for an increased capability on the field, they draft if needed, but trade them away (very successfully) when they see an opportunity.

If they do not get Carlisle, what has changed?

They lose a player that would make their best 22 all things being equal - but are not desperate for it to happen.

They gain two picks that they can use to get youngsters into their system, who with a bit of luck will be ready made AFL quality as your aging stars start to retire.

And I am sure there is defensive backup for the loss of Lake, which they would have to be Carltonesque in their management for there not to be.

 

[doppleganger]

The 'Destination' club talk is dribble.

The Hawks built their dynasty from the draft - Hodge, Mitchell, Roughy, Buddy, Lewis, Birchall, Rioli, Smith, Breust, Poppy

Thank * that their 2005 was basically a washout - 3 Xellis, 6 Dowler, 14 Birchall, 18 Bailey and 22 Muston

They then were happy to trade out of weaker draft positions to bring in mature talent - Burgoyne, Hale, Gibson, Gunston

They have probably lost more players to FA than any other, and only picked up Frawley.

When Clarko started out he played the draft and traded out key players, with a strong core and weaker draft position they then went the mature path as clubs tend to over-rate draft picks.

Collingwood have lost plenty of mature players recently - Beams, Thomas, Wellingham, Dawes, H.Shaw etc and now appears Freeman, Seedsman, and Kennedy all want out too.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Thanks for taking my post and questions/opinion the right way.

Nobody can say North got a raw deal or a great deal till 3 years imo. North might very well have got a steal, time will tell. I will say its a brave move by your recruiters.

I agree that you need to wait to decide who wins/loses a trade long-term... But you can compare a trade to market value: which is what decides someones worth right now, and really is what determines someones value.

My opinion is that North has massively overpaid compared to market value. It is hard to judge that without knowing exactly what was offered, but if the only other offers Hawthorn recieved were mid-2nd rounders, and they suddenly scored pick 15 - then thats a massive score for them.

 

[Tiger71]

The 'Destination' club talk is dribble.

The Hawks built their dynasty from the draft - Hodge, Mitchell, Roughy, Buddy, Lewis, Birchall, Rioli, Smith, Breust, Poppy

Thank glory be that their 2005 was basically a washout - 3 Xellis, 6 Dowler, 14 Birchall, 18 Bailey and 22 Muston

They then were happy to trade out of weaker draft positions to bring in mature talent - Burgoyne, Hale, Gibson, Gunston

They have probably lost more players to FA than any other, and only picked up Frawley.

When Clarko started out he played the draft and traded out key players, with a strong core and weaker draft position they then went the mature path as clubs tend to over-rate draft picks.

Collingwood have lost plenty of mature players recently - Beams, Thomas, Wellingham, Dawes, H.Shaw etc and now appears Freeman, Seedsman, and Kennedy all want out too.

Agree with this. The Tigers have been brought up as not being a destination club, IMO they are just following a different model then the pies. The pies traded depth to rejuvenate there list and in turn with those in's had outs. Tigers, yes we chased the cream of the crop in hartlett, hannerbury, treloar etc and missed out, as indeed other clubs missed out but on the other hand, we re signed our top line players, as well as getting Lennon to re commit AND still managed to attract yarran who has nominated us as well as getting Townsend who had an offer from GWS to stay as well as other clubs hunting him, as confirmed by Cameron.

Both avenues to rebuild a list are viable imo.

 

[MC_9]

Not really though.

You have two picks in the top 20. As your club said, first time in forever since that has happened.

Hawthorn use their picks as currency, a means unto an end.

They place no emotional attachment to the pick number, they are looking for an increased capability on the field, they draft if needed, but trade them away (very successfully) when they see an opportunity.

If they do not get Carlisle, what has changed?

They lose a player that would make their best 22 all things being equal - but are not desperate for it to happen.

They gain two picks that they can use to get youngsters into their system, who with a bit of luck will be ready made AFL quality as your aging stars start to retire.

And I am sure there is defensive backup for the loss of Lake, which they would have to be Carltonesque in their management for there not to be.

Non of that has anything to do with being a destination club though.

You are right Hawthorn use the picks as means to an end, because almost everyone in football vastly overrates drafts picks. The draft is an inaccurate science, so if you can trade some speculative picks for a proven player, do it. Yet most clubs and fans are so worried about picking up that possible (yet unlikely) super star in the draft. Even though there are only ever a couple in each draft.

Also every club also has the ability to trade one of their talented youngster for a late first round pick if they wish.

Again non of that has anything to do with being a destination club.

Carlisle may end up at the Hawks, if the Saints fail to make a trade. But that is the Saints fault, not the Hawks.

 

[B4Bear]

Non of that has anything to do with being a destination club though.

You are right Hawthorn use the picks as means to an end, because almost everyone in football vastly overrates drafts picks. The draft is an inaccurate science, so if you can trade some speculative picks for a proven player, do it. Yet most clubs and fans are so worried about picking up that possible (yet unlikely) super star in the draft. Even though there are only ever a couple in each draft.

Also every club also has the ability to trade one of their talented youngster for a late first round pick if they wish.

Again non of that has anything to do with being a destination club.

Carlisle may end up at the Hawks, if the Saints fail to make a trade. But that is the Saints fault, not the Hawks.

But it has everything to do with the comment I was replying to.

 

[Plugger35]

It's not like he is going to say he was better.

It's called humility.

There wasn't much between Harvey and Crawf. Would have been fascinating to see them go head to head over 10km. Both unbelievable endurance athletes.

Crawford was a great player too with great endurance but he went head to head with Harvey a number of times and said he struggled to keep up with him.

I don't think it was just humility on Crawford's part as Harvey was a freak endurance athlete compared to other mids of his time, Crawford was one of the few mids that was in the same ballpark as him in terms of endurance.

Your tears say more than real evidence ever could.

It's not tears, it's just pointing out the bullshit in the media about how Hawthorn are awesome at trading and St Kilda are dunces even though the Hawks are relying on the generosity of North being a third party in the deal to make it attractive to Essendon.

Without North involved Hawthorn wouldn't be in any better position to land Carlisle than St Kilda.

 

[Rioli magic]

It's not tears, it's just pointing out the bullshit in the media about how Hawthorn are awesome at trading and St Kilda are dunces even though the Hawks are relying on the generosity of North being a third party in the deal to make it attractive to Essendon.

Without North involved Hawthorn wouldn't be in any better position to land Carlisle than St Kilda.

What's stopping St Kilda trading out one their talented youngsters to get the currency to satisfy Essendon?

 

[Tiger2709]

I'd like to thing Geelong are becoming a destination club but I know Henderson, Selwood and Dangerfield are coming partly for family reasons, I mean if we were on the bottom the ladder they wouldn't move across - so we are partway there.

I don't understand how Richmond keep missing out - maybe the coach doesn't present well or something? Or they are in that win spot of trying to offer Cats/Hawks type wages but without the history of success to justify it.

We wont pay them 750k a year is one reason, but also look at Collingwood, as many leave as come in, whereas we have kept our team together as a unit by having a fixed pay scale, so the players we have must believe as a number have turned down bigger offers at other clubs.

There is also the simple fact of the destination clubs at the moment are also the most recent Premier teams and we at this stage can't even win an EF.

 

[manboob]

We wont pay them 750k a year is one reason, but also look at Collingwood, as many leave as come in, whereas we have kept our team together as a unit by having a fixed pay scale, so the players we have must believe as a number have turned down bigger offers at other clubs.

There is also the simple fact of the destination clubs at the moment are also the most recent Premier teams and we at this stage can't even win an EF.

yeah as i said you're in the awkward position of getting players to buy into something you don't have to sell.

 

[Plugger35]

What's stopping St Kilda trading out one their talented youngsters to get the currency to satisfy Essendon?

Why would we trade out one of our talented youngsters when we're rebuilding?

Essendon were looking to get Billings for Carlisle which would be even more crazy than us trading pick 5 for him given that Billings was pick 3 and has already shown he is going to be a gun player.

 

[Moggy]

We'll get Jimmy Toumpas a former pick 4

Ironic, and sad for the Demons, that Toumpas ends up at Port for peanuts when Melbourne picked him over Ollie Wines in the first place - a player every team would love to have.

I'm sure you remember the heart-warming puff pieces before that draft about Wines and Jack Viney being best mates, developing nicely together under Todd Viney's tutelage...

Jeez, Melbourne screwed the pooch on that one...

 

[Tiger2709]

Ironic, and sad for the Demons, that Toumpas ends up at Port for peanuts when Melbourne picked him over Ollie Wines in the first place - a player every team would love to have.

I'm sure you remember the heart-warming puff pieces before that draft about Wines and Jack Viney being best mates, developing nicely together under Todd Viney's tutelage...

Jeez, Melbourne screwed the pooch on that one...

Well its not the first time, two first picks and they miss Martin for Trengove and Scully, surely they will get it right one day, when you think of the list of talent they could have had they would have been Premiership contenders, just show high draft picks are not the be all and end all unless you nail them.

 

[Rioli magic]

Why would we trade out one of our talented youngsters when we're rebuilding?

Essendon were looking to get Billings for Carlisle which would be even more crazy than us trading pick 5 for him given that Billings was pick 3 and has already shown he is going to be a gun player.

"We're not trading pick 5, Billings or any other talented kid for Carlisle but we're just like Hawthorn at the trade table".

 

[frem23]

Hilarious that those flogs at Hawthorn thought they could pinch Carlisle by swooping in. Thanks for the time you spent on a deal that had no worth.

 

[Scotland]

Hilarious that those flogs at Hawthorn thought they could pinch Carlisle by swooping in. Thanks for the time you spent on a deal that had no worth.

Worth it for the frothing.

Noes they can't afford him the rules need to change the top clubs only get stronger boooooo.

 

[Plugger35]

"We're not trading pick 5, Billings or any other talented kid for Carlisle but we're just like Hawthorn at the trade table".

You haven't got Carlisle yet and according to this tweet you won't get him.


Hawthorn has played their best hand early at the trade table while we just sit back quietly and collect the chips, maybe Hawthorn aren't as awesome at the trade table as everyone says they are.