Destination clubs - an equalisation loophole?

[beta_condition]

but the youth at the Hawks is even less promising than Geelong's over the past couple of years. .

How old to you consider youth?

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Yeah everyone here is patting Hawthorn on the back for being awesome at trading but this deal wouldn't be possible without North agreeing to give up pick 15 for Jed Anderson which is ridiculous considering he isn't even in Hawthorn's best 22 and has played just 10 AFL games in the past 3 years.

You can't really blame St Kilda for not being able to compete with an offer of pick 15 and pick 18 for Carlisle which is massive overs, the only way we could trump that offer is to give up pick 5 for Carlisle and that would be as ridiculous as North giving up pick 15 for Anderson.

It would be disappointing to miss out on Carlisle but he isn't good enough to give up pick 5 for, we're better off using it to draft a quality youngster and save our money and picks to throw at some other established player.

north are in that similar 'win now' mode that hawks, geelong, freo etc are in. they haven't got the time a first round pick to develop into a gun. by then boomer, waite, dal santo, higgins will probably retire. they're taking a chance on jed anderson because while he's an unproven talent, he at least has the couple years of pre season and footy club experience under his belt which they're hoping will combine with more first team playing time will see him become a great player. to clubs like ours draft picks are more valuable than players.

 

[Moggy]

Yeah everyone here is patting Hawthorn on the back for being awesome at trading but this deal wouldn't be possible without North agreeing to give up pick 15 for Jed Anderson which is ridiculous considering he isn't even in Hawthorn's best 22 and has played just 10 AFL games in the past 3 years.

You can't really blame St Kilda for not being able to compete with an offer of pick 15 and pick 18 for Carlisle which is massive overs, the only way we could trump that offer is to give up pick 5 for Carlisle and that would be as ridiculous as North giving up pick 15 for Anderson.

It would be disappointing to miss out on Carlisle but he isn't good enough to give up pick 5 for, we're better off using it to draft a quality youngster and save our money and picks to throw at some other established player.

Paying a future 1st rounder for Henderson (very likely pick 11 or later) is looking like better and better business now that the market for similar players is forming.

Hendo doesn't even have any WADA issues

Edit: Left out the quote

 

[Tulip]

How old to you consider youth?

Anyone in the system for 5 years or under is what I meant in the case of those two sides. Frawley and I. Smith, for example, are far from retiring but couldn't be called youth. The question is - if these guys replace Lake and Burgoyne; are the players replacing these two good enough?

 

[Ant85]

Yeah everyone here is patting Hawthorn on the back for being awesome at trading but this deal wouldn't be possible without North agreeing to give up pick 15 for Jed Anderson which is ridiculous considering he isn't even in Hawthorn's best 22 and has played just 10 AFL games in the past 3 years.

You can't really blame St Kilda for not being able to compete with an offer of pick 15 and pick 18 for Carlisle which is massive overs, the only way we could trump that offer is to give up pick 5 for Carlisle and that would be as ridiculous as North giving up pick 15 for Anderson.

It would be disappointing to miss out on Carlisle but he isn't good enough to give up pick 5 for, we're better off using it to draft a quality youngster and save our money and picks to throw at some other established player.

north are in that similar 'win now' mode that hawks, geelong, freo etc are in. they haven't got the time a first round pick to develop into a gun. by then boomer, waite, dal santo, higgins will probably retire. they're taking a chance on jed anderson because while he's an unproven talent, he at least has the couple years of pre season and footy club experience under his belt which they're hoping will combine with more first team playing time will see him become a great player. to clubs like ours draft picks are more valuable than players.

And North have been very active this trade period trying to lure established players - Treloar, Aish, Howe, Seedsman, Freeman, Henderson, now Anderson.

That they've largely struggled to get players to nominate them, and they're so desperate as a result they'll throw away a first round pick, reinforces my point.

 

[wallyt99]

Hawthorn are ruthless bad ass motherfuc.kers. Massive respect.

Lol

 

[Scotland]

Complaining about the salary cap is kinda pointless when players sign front and back ended deals.

Hawthorn could for all intents and purposes sign Carlisle on $150k for 2016. Out: Anderson, In: Carlisle. No worries. It's what happens in 2017, 2018... that is the unknown.

The only way Carlisle gets to Hawthorn is if he wants to and Essendon agree a trade with Hawthorn. He won't be demanding to go there and walking there for free because he's not a FA and Hawthorn probably don't have the cap space to outbid other clubs in the PSD with a two year offer. Until yesterday he was set on the Saints anyway. I doubt either Seaford or 14th can be considered 'destinations'.

I think the current system is pretty fair. I like clubs being able to pay less than 95% of the cap if they're struggling, but I don't like the idea of being able to spend 80% one year then 120% the next. That will only encourage buying players like clubs did in the 70s and 80s.

We could make all contracts standard (ie no back or front ending) but all that's doing is punishing good salary cap management - which is probably what some people want from 'equalisation'.

I look at our own list and we've gone In: Jetta, Redden, Out: Sinclair, Main, Waters, Selwood, and we may lose Rosa. On those changes we've probably gained cap space, but I have no idea what our planned TPP looked like going into 2016 before trade week.

 

[ScrewInStuds]

Seems the only way to fix the problem is a 2 year trade ban for the pies and hawks

 

[master bate]

Complaining about the salary cap is kinda pointless when players sign front and back ended deals.

Hawthorn could for all intents and purposes sign Carlisle on $150k for 2016. Out: Anderson, In: Carlisle. No worries. It's what happens in 2017, 2018... that is the unknown.

The only way Carlisle gets to Hawthorn is if he wants to and Essendon agree a trade with Hawthorn. He won't be demanding to go there and walking there for free because he's not a FA and Hawthorn probably don't have the cap space to outbid other clubs in the PSD with a two year offer. Until yesterday he was set on the Saints anyway. I doubt either Seaford or 14th can be considered 'destinations'.

I think the current system is pretty fair. I like clubs being able to pay less than 95% of the cap if they're struggling, but I don't like the idea of being able to spend 80% one year then 120% the next. That will only encourage buying players like clubs did in the 70s and 80s.

We could make all contracts standard (ie no back or front ending) but all that's doing is punishing good salary cap management - which is probably what some people want from 'equalisation'.

I look at our own list and we've gone In: Jetta, Redden, Out: Sinclair, Main, Waters, Selwood, and we may lose Rosa. On those changes we've probably gained cap space, but I have no idea what our planned TPP looked like going into 2016 before trade week.

The thing is by bouncing up to 2nd place on the ladder and having so many players having improved years their should be several players from West Coast's best 22 signing contracts for big pay rises.

Gaff and Shuey had some forms of breakout year. McGovern for sure. Veterans like Le Cras and Kennedy probably out played their contracts. Sheppard for sure. Sheed came off his draft contract with a big year. Welligham, Schofield and so on.

The combination of players keen for success, the talk of 'culture' and egalitarian method of player payments and injuries being a big enough risk to get guys to sign in advance but not so big as to ruin most players earning potentials if they don't lock up a good deal seems to undermine the salary.

That's all ok. In fact in a lot of ways it's healthy. Just makes it hard for bottom clubs to get guys out of top clubs by offering big offers.

Any average player makes over 300 grand with match payments whilst most good players only make 500k max and then only a small handful at each club make over that. In most salary cap leagues the stars make huge money (sometimes meaning they become marquee cap exempt players) and just as importantly there's a big gap between the mid tier guys and the 'just another guys'.

 

[Biscut]

Hawthorn/Geelong are always willing to pay slight overs just to get their man. This is another example.

Carlisle could very well be in the Saints colours if they were willing to pay the price.

I disagree that geelong are always willing to pay slightly overs. We didn't with Danger, Selwood was free, Hendo is worth the 16 1st rounder and smith will be cheap. Where did we ever pay overs????

 

[lethal03]

All this talk of the Geelong/Hawthorn dominance: I just can't agree about it being an ongoing thing.


Hawthorn is losing Lake, Hale, Anderson and Suckling. Three of those played on Grand Final day. Carlisle is a good coup to play CHB and elongate Gibson's career, but the youth at the Hawks is even less promising than Geelong's over the past couple of years. A big benefit of their core being the same age was that they peaked together and won flags; an issue is that they'll retire together over a couple of years and the Hawks will lose those mercurial players.

Geelong missed the finals this year, and is no monty for them next year. The Hawks probably have another year in them, but then maybe they don't.

Box Hill Hawks have played in the VFL GF the last 3 years. So how do you come to this?

 

[TheCoach16]

Aren't Collingwood getting Treloar, Aish and Howe?

Sounds like a legal firm...

Treloar, Aish and Howe, no win, no charge.

 

[Ab__]

I won't lie when I say I'm annoyed but they're an amazing club that recruit very well. Draft well and then you trade in a couple of players to fill gaps and then you have success and with that long term success, players leave and you pick up players to replace them. It's not their fault that their players aren't greedy but I'm a greedy supporter and I don't want Hawthorn to get our 4peat

 

[Tulip]

Box Hill Hawks have played in the VFL GF the last 3 years. So how do you come to this?

Who are the stars? VFL players, or Sicily, Howe, O'Rourke and Hartung? Hasn't Simpkin won the last couple of B&Fs there?

 

[telsor]

Seems the only way to fix the problem is a 2 year trade ban for the pies and hawks

Absolutely, same terms as Sydney's ban...It ends as soon as they're back under the salary cap.

 

[Astro_]

If you are a St. Kilda supporter, you haven't seen a flag since 1966, a Bulldogs one with 1954 & Melbourne 1964. Those clubs are great but how long until the motivation goes?

It's sad and I cried when Fitzroy died but there are simply too many clubs.

The motivation never goes. Stupid comment

 

[telsor]

There is another side to the 'destination club' thing...

Those clubs tend to be successful, so their players have a lot more currency on the trade table, allowing them to get more done.

If Jed Anderson (10 games over 2 years for 97 disposals) was from Carlton, do you think he'd get nearly as much interest?

 

[Arc1]

Strikes me that one problem here is that players don't earn enough. If you can't retire on your playing earnings, then you have to have a career after footy, so in a sense, you're better off earning less money at a successful club.

 

[lethal03]

Who are the stars? VFL players, or Sicily, Howe, O'Rourke and Hartung? Hasn't Simpkin won the last couple of B&Fs there?

Add Langford. Name me any AFL stars playing VFL?

 

[Tulip]

Add Langford. Name me any AFL stars playing VFL?

There's plenty of VFL stars. I'm asking whether they're the ones carrying Box Hill, or if the younger end of your list are dominating?

 

[Jaeger]

Sounds like a legal firm...

Treloar, Aish and Howe, no win, no charge.

You listen to too many SEN commercials

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Hawthorn are doin' bidness it's smart

*For Port if the Dixon trade drags on & another club starts sniffin' around I'll be pissed but once again it's bidness.. Nothing is set in stone in trade week

 

[Rhayader]

Absolutely, same terms as Sydney's ban...It ends as soon as they're back under the salary cap.

Do we get COLA? I could think of a few ways to spend that extra million per year ...

 

[StevenwellerHFC]

Who the * would want to play for St Kilda?

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Who the **** would want to play for St Kilda?

The 40 odd players we have on our list, Nathan freeman, jake carlisle, bailey rice, draftees, young st kilda supporters, shane warne, erica bana.

Quite a lot of people actually.

Also people are deluding themselves if they think Hawthron would trade pick 5 for Carlisle or rebuilding club in that matter.