NFL 2014/15 NFL Honors Night

[royals1922]

No

LT was close to the greatest. This isn't retrospect, people knew what they were witnessing at the time

Different rules. No defensive player can get away today with what they got away with 20 years ago. The NFL has brought in rule after rule which has impacted on defensive players and conversely given offensive players more ease of movement.

 

[Blacky]

That might be true of the secondary, but is far less true about linemen

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

True

But how many sacks has he had against top teams?

He had 10 against Tenn and Jax

I'm playing devils advocate here, but let's put it in perspective

Rodgers had 15 TDs and 0 ints in 4 games against Bears and Vikings.
29 of his 38 TDs against teams with losing records. Actually they only played 5 games against teams with winning records and went 2-3.

 

[arakaan]

Rodgers had 15 TDs and 0 ints in 4 games against Bears and Vikings.
29 of his 38 TDs against teams with losing records. Actually they only played 5 games against teams with winning records and went 2-3.

ooh thats gotta hurt.

 

[Blacky]

Rodgers had 15 TDs and 0 ints in 4 games against Bears and Vikings.
29 of his 38 TDs against teams with losing records. Actually they only played 5 games against teams with winning records and went 2-3.

I am not advocating Rodgers though.

I think Romo or Brady are the deserving candidates.

My main point though is the overall win loss without the relevant player

Chances are Houston would have beaten Jax and Tenn even without the 10 sacks

 

[Blacky]

Houston won one game all year against teams with a winning record (the Bills 9-7)

Easier to rack up sacks when you're ahead

As I have said before I would be happy for him to win it, but let's not try to say he is the GOAT just yet

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

I am not advocating Rodgers though.

I think Romo or Brady are the deserving candidates.

My main point though is the overall win loss without the relevant player

Chances are Houston would have beaten Jax and Tenn even without the 10 sacks

We could go around in circles, there's a few games we would have lost without Watt, last weekend's game against the Jags was one of them. A few we lost by close margin where he did all he could to get us close.

I mean we say the QB is the most valuable player but there were losses where Watt did all he could and our QB farked it up.

Just on QBs you mentioned, if we go records v winning teams, Romo slightly ahead of Rodgers and Brady tops them both.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

We could go around in circles, there's a few games we would have lost without Watt, last weekend's game against the Jags was one of them. A few we lost by close margin where he did all he could to get us close.

I mean we say the QB is the most valuable player but there were losses where Watt did all he could and our QB farked it up.

Just on QBs you mentioned, if we go records v winning teams, Romo slightly ahead of Rodgers and Brady tops them both.

The reason you lost is because your QB farked it up


That's what makes them so valuable


The result rides on them 85% of the time

 

[royals1922]

Watt GOAT defensive player, I am not saying that . MVP of this year, he at least should get strong consideration.

 

[nobbyiscool]

I am not advocating Rodgers though.

I think Romo or Brady are the deserving candidates.

My main point though is the overall win loss without the relevant player

Chances are Houston would have beaten Jax and Tenn even without the 10 sacks

Please.

This "Romo for MVP" storyline is growing more and more ridiculous. He wasn't even the most valuable player on his own team until the last month of the season.

It's meant to be a season-long award. Which for me adds a LOT of weight to the notion that JJ Watt is the rightful MVP this season - he did it for 16 weeks. Most agree that Brady was rubbish for the first month - but Rodgers was nearly as bad over the 3 weeks.

Watt didn't have any of the types of games that Brady had against KC or Rodgers had against Seattle or Detroit - he brought it every week, and was the best player on field nearly every week.

 

[royals1922]

I am feeling mischievous.

LT got the MVP in 1986 getting 20.5 sacks and 0 interceptions and 0 returns. The tackles were not recorded.

So who did he get his sacks against:

Sides 12-4 wins

Washington 3 sacks
Washington 3 sacks
6 sacks

Sides 9-7 wins

Minnesota 2 sacks
2 sacks

Sides 7-9 wins

1.5 Dallas
1 Dallas

2.5 sacks

Sides 5-10-1

4 Philadelphia
3 Philadelphia

7 sacks

Sides 4-11-1

2 St Louis
1 St Louis
3 sacks

So 8 sacks against teams with a winning record and 10 sacks against sides that won less than 6 games and 2 sacks outside his own conference.

Just for comparison sake.

 

[Exe Gesis]

A sack is a sack is a sack

 

[royals1922]

And JJ Watts stats remembering he got 1 interception for an 80 yard TD against Buffalo to give the Texans the lead in the 3rd quarter 14-10 ( therefore winning them the game) and a fumble return for a 45 yard TD against Indianapolis and 3 TDs as a tightend and sacked Bortles in the end zone for a safety. He also got 20.5 sacks made up as follows.

11.5 win sides

2 Indianapolis
1 Pittsburgh
2 Indianoplis

10.6 win sides

1.5 Philadelphia

7-9 win sides

1 Cleveland

6-10 win sides

1 Giants

4 -12 win sides

1. Washington

3-13 win sides

3 Jax
3 Jax

2-14 sides

2 Tenn
2 Tenn

Against the sides in his conference he got 14 sacks and against sides 6-10 or worse he got 12 sacks.

I'm being even handed here but he deserves to be up there.

 

[royals1922]

A sack is a sack is a sack

Fairpoint see my post then about Watt.

 

[royals1922]

A sack is a sack is a sack

The point was made that Watt beat up on weak sides. I was just comparing Watts 20.5 to LT's 20.5.

 

[Exe Gesis]

The point was made that Watt beat up on weak sides. I was just comparing Watts 20.5 to LT's 20.5.

I was backing you up....a sack is a sack no matter against who.

 

[royals1922]

I was backing you up....a sack is a sack no matter against who.

That is appreciated. I did not want to be accused of cherry picking numbers and wanted to go back to the source data.

 

[Exe Gesis]

That is appreciated. I did not want to be accused of cherry picking numbers and wanted to go back to the source data.

Still keen to see the comparison between Watt's and Justin Houston's overall defensive stats, and breaking down the opposition those stats came from. Not nudge nudge wink winking you to do the legwork, maybe someone will.

 

[royals1922]

Still keen to see the comparison between Watt's and Justin Houston's overall defensive stats, and breaking down the opposition those stats came from. Not nudge nudge wink winking you to do the legwork, maybe someone will.

Happy to provide as I don't have a barrow to push for Watt or any other player.

Houston got 22 sacks and 1 interception.

His 22 sacks were against:

12-4 teams

New England 2
Denver 1

3 sacks

11-5 teams

Arizona 2
Pittsburgh 1

3 sacks

9-7 teams
San Diego 4
San Diego 1

5 sacks

8-8 teams

49ers 1
Miami 2

3 sacks

6-10 teams
St Louis 3

3 sacks

4-12 teams

Jets 2

2 sacks

3-13 teams

Oakland 1

1 sack

2-14 teams

Tennessee 2

2 sacks

Half came against teams with 9-7 or more but more than a few came against teams with a record of 6-10 or worse.

 

[Blacky]

The big difference in all of this being that Giants went to the play offs (and won the Super Bowl)

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

It's not just sacks though. When you add up hits, pressure and sacks I think Watt had 30 more than the next best. So judged against his peers he's further ahead than any boring old over protected, OL reliant QB.

 

[Blacky]

I don't know how many more ways it can be said

Yes, he is by far the best player at his position.

However, he isn't the most valuable and a case can be made to illustrate this.

I actually think he would have been a shoo in if they made play offs and think he is a pretty good chance to win it now. (mostly because it's been so long since a defender won)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Who gives a * about the MVP anyway?

 

[LeverPuller]

Hang on

are you saying Romo was doing he gosh darnedest in previous years and was let down by his supporting cast?

Lol

I'm saying that Romo has finally had the problems of previous years (see the O-line) solved and thus is showing just what he can do.
I'm also saying that Luck is a damn good QB but has a s**t D and no O-line and that's what's stopping him...furthermore, I think the weakness of the AFC South is helping the Colts a lot.

The last non-QB player to have such a significant impact on the fortunes of a team was AP when he won the MVP two years ago. JJ Watt is having that same impact.

 

[Blacky]

I'm saying that Romo has finally had the problems of previous years (see the O-line) solved and thus is showing just what he can do.
I'm also saying that Luck is a damn good QB but has a s**t D and no O-line and that's what's stopping him...furthermore, I think the weakness of the AFC South is helping the Colts a lot.

The last non-QB player to have such a significant impact on the fortunes of a team was AP when he won the MVP two years ago. JJ Watt is having that same impact.

No, he isn't having the same impact.

Vikings had a similar roster to the texans (probably worse) but ADP put them on the back and dragged them to the play offs

I also find it strange that playing in the AFC south helps Luck, but you don't seem to have the same opinion of Watt...

PS. Romo's previous capitulations were basically all on him. He has put it all together this year, and a lot of that is his current situation being favourable, but he is not absolved of the previous failings