Expansion 3rd Western Australian club

[TWLS]

There are 9 WAFL teams.
South Fremantle, East fremantle and Peel identify heavily with the Dockers.
West Perth, Subiaco and Claremont are on the west coast and might lean to the Eagles.
East Perth, Perth and Swan Districts could technically be the feeders for WA3.
East of Perth you have the strongest Noongar representation - red yellow and black boomerangs.

Well despite the best efforts of some on here who for their own reasons cannot accept the idea that a 3rd team will likely come from North of the River just watch it happen. God for bid dont mention Joondalup as a possible base which is not certain at this time.
Where do you think the future growth will happen in Perth. Why have State Govts of both persuasions poured money into the Northern Corridor very roughly starting at around Mindarie.
When the rail line and Freeway get to Yanchep that corridor will expand quicker - People expect services no matter where they live.
Think about the Wanneroo Council growing from a outer suburban set up to a full blown city with an expanding population. The long long time mayor pulled up stakes and moved into federal politics at the recent federal election. Very curious moves people make in their careers.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

Well despite the best efforts of some on here who for their own reasons cannot accept the idea that a 3rd team will likely come from North of the River just watch it happen. God for bid dont mention Joondalup as a possible base which is not certain at this time.
Where do you think the future growth will happen in Perth. Why have State Govts of both persuasions poured money into the Northern Corridor very roughly starting at around Mindarie.
When the rail line and Freeway get to Yanchep that corridor will expand quicker - People expect services no matter where they live.
Think about the Wanneroo Council growing from a outer suburban set up to a full blown city with an expanding population. The long long time mayor pulled up stakes and moved into federal politics at the recent federal election. Very curious moves people make in their careers.

The population centre of Perth is drifting southwards.

 

[RedV3x]

Well despite the best efforts of some on here who for their own reasons cannot accept the idea that a 3rd team will likely come from North of the River just watch it happen.

I don't think WA3 is likely at all.

Where do you think the future growth will happen in Perth.

Mostly where they building the new railway line - N.E. but also N.W., S.W., S.E. and don't forget infill.

Why have State Govts of both persuasions poured money into the Northern Corridor very roughly starting at around Mindarie.

And reneged on building a railway station near Joondalup Arena !

When the rail line and Freeway get to Yanchep that corridor will expand quicker

You mean like Mandurah and peel have provided a WAFL powerhouse ?

People expect services no matter where they live.

Like expecting to win Lotto.

Think about the Wanneroo Council growing from a outer suburban set up to a full blown city with an expanding population.

Wanneroo and Joondalup have HAD great expansion for no football result. They will continue to grow with little relevance.
If there is going to be a WA3 then it will be east of Perth.

 

[Coolangatta]

I don't think WA3 is likely at all.

Who do you think team 20 will be?

 

[RedV3x]

Who do you think team 20 will be?

It's a matter of timing.
They just renewed the contract for Canberra so Canberra is iffy - more likely just to have more AFL games.
If new Zealand picks up the pace again then it could be Auckland but no whispers yet and that also would be a relocation.
The N.T. have suggested a model but i can see the AFL bauking at relying on that model - they are bauking at Tasmania
and have set up conditions as an out/bonus.
Nobody is talking about West Brisbane but the AFL have invested in that large population growth area.
The Lions have outdrawn the broncos when their form is good and the ideal model is two teams per city.

 

[madmug]

I don't think WA3 is likely at all.

I think the biggest problem is too many clubs in the Port Phillip Bay area.

Tas1 & ACT1 are prime new team places.

That apart, how can anyone justify the second biggest football market in the country staying with only 2 clubs. Also having the newest large stadium in the nation.

Yet at the same time people discuss a 3rd Sydney, a 3rd SE Queensland team or even a team from NZ!!!!.

It makes no sense to me at all.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Wanneroo and Joondalup have HAD great expansion for no football result. They will continue to grow with little relevance.
If there is going to be a WA3 then it will be east of Perth.

What do you determine as a result? What does no football result mean? Just don't understand that statement.

 

[Walshawk]

Who do you think team 20 will be?

There is no need for team 20. 19 works really well. Plenty of great fixturing options. We already have two byes so no change there. We already have too many overlapping time slots so 20 teams creates new problems.

Reckon we will still have 19 teams for around a decade. Unless there is a serious push from Canberra I think that we will be at 19 for at least a decade or two.

 

[Rob]

Well despite the best efforts of some on here who for their own reasons cannot accept the idea that a 3rd team will likely come from North of the River just watch it happen. God for bid dont mention Joondalup as a possible base which is not certain at this time.
Where do you think the future growth will happen in Perth. Why have State Govts of both persuasions poured money into the Northern Corridor very roughly starting at around Mindarie.
When the rail line and Freeway get to Yanchep that corridor will expand quicker - People expect services no matter where they live.
Think about the Wanneroo Council growing from a outer suburban set up to a full blown city with an expanding population. The long long time mayor pulled up stakes and moved into federal politics at the recent federal election. Very curious moves people make in their careers.

Firstly more people live South than North, and it appears that the population centre of Perth is moving further South.
Secondly, the only reason you'd base WA3 in the North is to damage the Eagles given that's their heartland. That's why it might hold some appeal for AFL house. IMO very few Eagles fans will switch because very few people in Joondalup or Wanneroo actually identify with Joondalup or Wanneroo. It's just general Perth suburbia.

 

[Coolangatta]

There is no need for team 20. 19 works really well. Plenty of great fixturing options. We already have two byes so no change there. We already have too many overlapping time slots so 20 teams creates new problems.

Reckon we will still have 19 teams for around a decade. Unless there is a serious push from Canberra I think that we will be at 19 for at least a decade or two.

Yeah, 19 teams for at least a decade or two is probably better.

Give the Giants an actual generation to make or break. If they're no good by 2042, the AFL must decide: fold them or relocate them to Canberra. Then bring in the South West Sharks a few years later to make it 20 teams, but it wouldn't surprise me if the AFL choose NT instead, even though I also share your doubts about them ever working.

 

[RedV3x]

What does no football result mean?

Joondalup and Wanneroo have grown immensely with no tangible result for football.
West Perth has moved to Joondalup but hasn't really grown.
Wanneroo had a powerful Sunday league side that has now ceased.
These two regions aren't bursting at the seams to get any type of football
and those that are football fans have already committed to an AFL side one would think.

 

[RedV3x]

I think the biggest problem is too many clubs in the Port Phillip Bay area.

Apart from Frankstown there is a reasonable spread of locations.
The problem is unequal distribution and not the number of Melbourne teams.

Tas1 & ACT1 are prime new team places.

if they were "prime' then it would have happened a long time ago.

That apart, how can anyone justify the second biggest football market in the country staying with only 2 clubs.

Well hopefully we'll have two strong and successful AFL clubs.

Also having the newest large stadium in the nation.

It costs loads of money to play at the new stadium.
WA3 would only have been viable at Subiaco oval.

Yet at the same time people discuss a 3rd Sydney, a 3rd SE Queensland team or even a team from NZ!!!!.

New Zealand were well on track for an AFL team but a lack of a stadium followed by Covid stopped that dead.
The AFL have invested in West Brisbane and that's where games will be played during Gabba renewal.
BR2 would create a much desired derby situation.
Sydney already has a successful derby situation so Syd3 is not needed anytime soon.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Joondalup and Wanneroo have grown immensely with no tangible result for football.
West Perth has moved to Joondalup but hasn't really grown.
Wanneroo had a powerful Sunday league side that has now ceased.
These two regions aren't bursting at the seams to get any type of football
and those that are football fans have already committed to an AFL side one would think.

Can you name me a State League club in Australia that has grown that is not in the AFL? West Perth has done well considering how hard it is outside of the AFL, West Perth are still the WAFL's biggest club by quite some distance.
The Sunday league ended over a decade ago, Wanneroo are a powerful amatuer club who are in A grade 2023, Kingsley, and Kingsway are also strong Amatuer clubs.

Busting at the seams I don't understand either, like I have said before you can give the smallest footy club in australia into the AFL and people will just gravitate to it. The Eagles and Dockers can't get full houses and you are expecting Joondalup to be full every week at the WAFL, 2-3k turning up to watch Wanneroo in the amateurs?? Is that what you mean by bursting at the seams?

I am not saying you are wrong I am just saying I don't think it's as clear as you might think. I am a West Perth man, I have been a member also of the Eagles for 27 years. Handed it in2 years back as was not attending. If West Perth came in as the Joondalup Falcons I would change tomorrow without even a though about it. How many West perth fans support Freo and West Coast? How many would go back and adopt the club they grew up with?
How many Young people will a new club attract?

I don't know the answers to these questions, I do think if it was reality and it was West Perth then I have no doubt 15k would sign up within a few weeks. Just being in the AFL gets thousands.

I don't see any other area in WA that can compete with Joondalup, it won't be Bunbury so count that out and all other country areas are to far away.

Would West Perth and East Perth work? Very possibly but I just can't see those two clubs getting together. Maybe for the AFL they would as it would secure their futures. But then would supporters of each club be happy to get on board?

Look I don't see WA 3 happening, but if it did it would be a no Brainer in my opinion for it to be Joondalup.

 

[Coolangatta]

Can you name me a State League club in Australia that has grown that is not in the AFL? West Perth has done well considering how hard it is outside of the AFL, West Perth are still the WAFL's biggest club by quite some distance.
The Sunday league ended over a decade ago, Wanneroo are a powerful amatuer club who are in A grade 2023, Kingsley, and Kingsway are also strong Amatuer clubs.

Busting at the seams I don't understand either, like I have said before you can give the smallest footy club in australia into the AFL and people will just gravitate to it. The Eagles and Dockers can't get full houses and you are expecting Joondalup to be full every week at the WAFL, 2-3k turning up to watch Wanneroo in the amateurs?? Is that what you mean by bursting at the seams?

I am not saying you are wrong I am just saying I don't think it's as clear as you might think. I am a West Perth man, I have been a member also of the Eagles for 27 years. Handed it in2 years back as was not attending. If West Perth came in as the Joondalup Falcons I would change tomorrow without even a though about it. How many West perth fans support Freo and West Coast? How many would go back and adopt the club they grew up with?
How many Young people will a new club attract?

I don't know the answers to these questions, I do think if it was reality and it was West Perth then I have no doubt 15k would sign up within a few weeks. Just being in the AFL gets thousands.

I don't see any other area in WA that can compete with Joondalup, it won't be Bunbury so count that out and all other country areas are to far away.

Would West Perth and East Perth work? Very possibly but I just can't see those two clubs getting together. Maybe for the AFL they would as it would secure their futures. But then would supporters of each club be happy to get on board?

Look I don't see WA 3 happening, but if it did it would be a no Brainer in my opinion for it to be Joondalup.

Yeah my dad is like you, he's an East Perth supporter; if the Royals were joining in 10 years he'd support them over West Coast, and probably over Carlton, his favourite team.

At this stage I'm keeping an open mind about all sorts of different expansion ideas, weighing the pros and cons of each. I think it's exciting and my only concerns are expanding with too many teams too soon, a problem Tasmania has brought on but it's now or never for them, and what they're going to do about the fixtures if we get more than 24 teams.

I'm not sure expansion will keep happening every 15-20 years, though, so I probably won't be alive to see the day where there's 24 teams, and that goes for most of us, so I guess it's not really a concern.

If they move to conferences (if it were me I wouldn't lock in the same teams every year but have a rotational system in place) or promotion/relegation, we won't be able to complain about it.

Case in point, I wouldn't be against a Joondalup Falcons team because I could see it working, and even though that's not who my 20th team choice would be for expansion, I wouldn't think the AFL are clowns if they opted for that option.

 

[Coolangatta]

New Zealand were well on track for an AFL team but a lack of a stadium followed by Covid stopped that dead.
The AFL have invested in West Brisbane and that's where games will be played during Gabba renewal.
BR2 would create a much desired derby situation.
Sydney already has a successful derby situation so Syd3 is not needed anytime soon.

Really? I thought their numbers were s**t weren't they? Wouldn't make much sense to have a NZ team without the figures to support it unless you're going for an underrepresented market that you know gives a toss about footy i.e. WA, ACT.

I hate to s**t on my own team here, but let's look at the facts.

1. Brissy have the highest debt in the AFL.
2. Brissy have 43,319 members. That's less than North if we're using them as a yardstick for s**t returns, although they've been around a LOT longer than we have; then again, we're only a one team city and they're competing with 8 other teams in the same city.
3. Brissy average home attendances last year: 25,818

These aren't numbers that inspire me a lot of confidence for a second team in Brisbane.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a rival club in Brisbane, but Brisbane isn't Perth or Melbourne. If they were, the Lions would have 100k members and already have a new stadium with at least 60k capacity.

I don't think BR2 or Syd3 is needed anytime soon.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Yeah my dad is like you, he's an East Perth supporter; if the Royals were joining in 10 years he'd support them over West Coast, and probably over Carlton, his favourite team.

At this stage I'm keeping an open mind about all sorts of different expansion ideas, weighing the pros and cons of each. I think it's exciting and my only concerns are expanding with too many teams too soon, a problem Tasmania has brought on but it's now or never for them, and what they're going to do about the fixtures if we get more than 24 teams.

I'm not sure expansion will keep happening every 15-20 years, though, so I probably won't be alive to see the day where there's 24 teams, and that goes for most of us, so I guess it's not really a concern.

If they move to conferences (if it were me I wouldn't lock in the same teams every year but have a rotational system in place) or promotion/relegation, we won't be able to complain about it.

Case in point, I wouldn't be against a Joondalup Falcons team because I could see it working, and even though that's not who my 20th team choice would be for expansion, I wouldn't think the AFL are clowns if they opted for that option.

Money has not really touched AFL as yet as much as we think it might have. The future is going to involve greedy players, greedy managers and that leads to only one thing. Much more money, less teams, private ownership, and probably no salary cap. Not tomorrow of course I am talking maybe a decade or two down the track. But it is pure fantasy for anyone to think that in 50 years there will be 24 teams, a salary cap, no private ownership.

We do everything America does and everything the AFL learn is from the USA. We will follow the same models eventually. I will probably not be around but I also think player transfers are the future.

The AFL is decades behind most sports in the world, trying to hang on to a suburban team model from another century. It will not stand the course of time and money will be the only tool that matters.
We are already seeing the total lack of loyalty players have for their clubs now, once their managers convince them they should be getting more money then watch out if you are not a big powerful club in the future because you won't survive in the league.

And here i am advocating for the Joondalup Falcons lol. Glad I won't be around to see the mess it will all end up as.

 

[Coolangatta]

Money has not really touched AFL as yet as much as we think it might have. The future is going to involve greedy players, greedy managers and that leads to only one thing. Much more money, less teams, private ownership, and probably no salary cap. Not tomorrow of course I am talking maybe a decade or two down the track. But it is pure fantasy for anyone to think that in 50 years there will be 24 teams, a salary cap, no private ownership.

We do everything America does and everything the AFL learn is from the USA. We will follow the same models eventually. I will probably not be around but I also think player transfers are the future.

The AFL is decades behind most sports in the world, trying to hang on to a suburban team model from another century. It will not stand the course of time and money will be the only tool that matters.
We are already seeing the total lack of loyalty players have for their clubs now, once their managers convince them they should be getting more money then watch out if you are not a big powerful club in the future because you won't survive in the league.

And here i am advocating for the Joondalup Falcons lol. Glad I won't be around to see the mess it will all end up as.

Hope not, sounds awful.

Maybe just bite the bullet, go Canberra Kangaroos, leave it at 19 teams for a long time, bring in NT, and cap it at 20 teams. Sell more games to Bendigo etc for smaller Vic clubs, and use NQLD etc as secondary markets.

Oh well, embrace the chaos, I guess.

 

[madmug]

Apart from Frankstown there is a reasonable spread of locations.
The problem is unequal distribution and not the number of Melbourne teams.



if they were "prime' then it would have happened a long time ago.



Well hopefully we'll have two strong and successful AFL clubs.



It costs loads of money to play at the new stadium.
WA3 would only have been viable at Subiaco oval.


New Zealand were well on track for an AFL team but a lack of a stadium followed by Covid stopped that dead.
The AFL have invested in West Brisbane and that's where games will be played during Gabba renewal.
BR2 would create a much desired derby situation.
Sydney already has a successful derby situation so Syd3 is not needed anytime soon.

A reasonable spread yet an unequal distribution? Please explain what that means to you?

Apart from all being based close to the city centre (except for Geelong) they are all in greater Melbourne. So its about 500k people per team. Whereas Perth has over 1million people per team.

'Prime new' teams. Thus 'new' is the emphasis. ie possibly 19th & 20th. NOT in the first 16 or so clubs in the AFL

Define successful derby situation in Syndey? For a city of 5million plus people I don't see such crowds as anything spectacular.

 

[Coolangatta]

A reasonable spread yet an unequal distribution? Please explain what that means to you?

Apart from all being based close to the city centre (except for Geelong) they are all in greater Melbourne. So its about 500k people per team. Whereas Perth has over 1million people per team.

'Prime new' teams. Thus 'new' is the emphasis. ie possibly 19th & 20th. NOT in the first 16 or so clubs in the AFL

Define successful derby situation in Syndey? For a city of 5million plus people I don't see such crowds as anything spectacular.

I understand your case but if the AFL had to be dragged kicking and screaming into adding Tasmania, why would they even bother with team 20 for another decade or two after them?

Unless they think adding a 10th game will give them more media rights money and that supersedes all their concerns.

 

[RedV3x]

A reasonable spread yet an unequal distribution? Please explain what that means to you?

A reasonable spread of teams but with unequal support.

Apart from all being based close to the city centre (except for Geelong) they are all in greater Melbourne.

Yes, the nominal association are the historical locations - not an issue.

So its about 500k people per team. Whereas Perth has over 1million people per team.

So, what's your point ?

'Prime new' teams.

There were submissions ages ago. If they were prime then they would have been taken up.
Canberra had a better case when first mooted.

Define successful derby situation in Syndey?

Sydney vs GWS produces very good crowds - well above the GWS average.

 

[RedV3x]

I don't think BR2 or Syd3 is needed anytime soon.

Or WA3.

 

[Coolangatta]

Or WA3.

With the exception of Canberra, you could say that of everyone else, too. And unless Canberra fights hard for a seat at the table we might not see a 20th team for a long time.

 

[RedV3x]

Can you name me a State League club in Australia that has grown that is not in the AFL?

Southport.

West Perth are still the WAFL's biggest club by quite some distance.

Really ? And yet they are still really really small.

The Sunday league ended over a decade ago,

With the Northern clubs struggling first.

Wanneroo are a powerful amatuer club who are in A grade 2023, Kingsley, and Kingsway are also strong Amatuer clubs.

Are you trying to make a case for AFL on that ?

Busting at the seams I don't understand either,

There is just no demand. Proportionally the new regions should be huge - but they aren't.

like I have said before you can give the smallest footy club in australia into the AFL and people will just gravitate to it.

Zero credibility there.

The Eagles and Dockers can't get full houses and you are expecting Joondalup to be full every week at the WAFL, 2-3k turning up to watch Wanneroo in the amateurs?? Is that what you mean by bursting at the seams?

I'd expect much better support than there is a.t.m.

I am not saying you are wrong I am just saying I don't think it's as clear as you might think. I am a West Perth man, I have been a member also of the Eagles for 27 years. Handed it in2 years back as was not attending. If West Perth came in as the Joondalup Falcons I would change tomorrow without even a though about it.

Congratulations - one member.

How many West perth fans support Freo and West Coast? How many would go back and adopt the club they grew up with?

I knew a number of W.P. members who torpedoed the idea of "Joondalup".

How many Young people will a new club attract?

That's the question.

I don't know the answers to these questions, I do think if it was reality and it was West Perth then I have no doubt 15k would sign up within a few weeks. Just being in the AFL gets thousands.

Didn't do it for Fremantle did it. I reckon you'd be lucky to get 10k and very lucky to sustain 10k.
Regardles, where are you going to play out of - Perth Stadium is a big loss maker.

I don't see any other area in WA that can compete with Joondalup,

The East of Perth has no direct representation - from Swan valley down to Armadale.

Would West Perth and East Perth work? Very possibly but I just can't see those two clubs getting together.

They actually sounded that out a long time ago.

Look I don't see WA 3 happening, but if it did it would be a no Brainer in my opinion for it to be Joondalup.

Look I don't see WA 3 happening, but if it did it would be a no goer in my opinion for it to be Joondalup.

 

[Coolangatta]

What if East Perth joined the VFL?

Even many AFL fans are unaware that towards the end of 1980, WAFL club East Perth put in an application to join the VFL.…

www.theroar.com.au

Interesting comment about East Perth as a WA3 candidate.

"The final note to this story is that given East Perth were the first club coin the idea of interstate clubs competing, which set the spark for a national comp they should therefore be the 3rd Western Australian team in any future expansion. There are several other considerations that would make this the sensible option and to list a few:

WA is the only state in the AFL without its capital’s city’s name appearing in a club’s name and East Perth is the real city club in WA not Perth who dropped South from their name, and while the 2 teams shared the WACA for a while EP’s old homeground was Perth Oval which sums up who is the city’s club.

Without a WCE reserves team, there would be nine clubs that could be split into 3 geographically based feeder clubs. Anyone knowing Perth would know of the freeway which runs south-north and of the Swan River. Thus Peel (current Freo affiliate), EF & SF whose junior zones fill the area south of the Swan and West of the freeway would feed Freo. North of the Swan and west of the freeway would be Subi, Claremont & WP, would feed WCE; and EP, P & SD zones and all areas east of the freeway would feed East Perth.

Although P & SD fans may not be warm to the idea, the reality is in the AFL there is already a Swans team, a B&W stripes team, a Demons team and black & red team, whilst there is no Royals team, nor black & blue colours. Also EP has won 17 premierships (plus 3 as Union) while SD & P only 15 between them. Not to mention SD was carved out of EP’s zone anyway, granted there was Midland Junction for a while, but after they became defunction it was EP’s, that’s why EP pushed back on SD’s entry into the WAFL.

In regards to team names and colours the other WA teams would not be suitable either. There is already a blue & white stripes team, red V on white, a bulldogs team, a lions team, a tigers team, a thunder bolt icon – Power & Thunder (too close) and blue & red colours, furthermore WP have the same anthem as Melbourne; and there are already Eagles, Hawks, and Saints so Falcons or Cardinals just wouldnt work."

 

[kranger]

If TAS get a team, I don’t think there will be a team 20. 19 teams has a lot of positives for the AFL. Especially when no one is working hard to be team 20.

Which means I don’t think there should/will be a WA3.

But if there was a WA3 team, it should be called Perth. As it provides the largest number of people to tap into their parochialism. Look how many went to the BBL grand final on the weekend (53,000) to watch a ‘Perth’ team. Any other region specific name is just limiting the size of your potential catchment.

Have them play at Optus Stadium, but with the top tier closed to reduce hiring fees, until such time that the crowds are large enough to warrant it being used. With the top tier closed Optus Stadium has a capacity of 37,000 which is more than enough for a WA3, whilst still providing all of the corporate facilities.

Co-locate the WA3 HQ and training ground with an existing WAFL club. This allows the WAFL field to be upgraded, and have a second tenant paying leasing fees to help pay for upkeep. Possibly Leederville Oval due to its centrality, or Bassendean Oval as one of the last grounds yet to get a redevelopment.

If it was to be Leederville Oval, then perhaps relocate East Perth to be co-tenants at Bassendean Oval with Swan Districts, meaning WA3 are co-tenants with Subiaco. With the upgraded Leederville Oval becoming a State Footy Centre where the state youth teams train and play, all 3 AFLW teams play, potential to host country carnivals.

Make such a team work to the benefit of WA Footy, with more content at Optus Stadium, helping with it’s financial sustainability, more people employed in the footy industry, upgraded WAFL fields benefiting teams and fans, and the potential for a State Footy Facility, like what soccer is getting out in Cannington.