List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade & FA 2024

[manicpie]

I included Yeo and Kennedy as they would have been worth every cent of a first rounder - just as you included Lynch despite him not costing a trade at all.

Dismissing Dangerfield and Prestia because they were behind two all time greats in Martin and Selwood is a bit ridiculous. The respective talls were behind those blokes too.

Yep, Dunkley is a much better player than McCluggage. Ashcroft will probably end up better though.

Hold your horses fonzie. McCLuggage is a much more damaging player than Dunkley. If it came down to choice, I reckon everyone would pick McCluggage over Dunkley

 

[doofdoof]

Lucked out on Checker moving forward, although he had history of playing there, lost out on Moore moving back. Swings and roundabouts.

What does it matter whether they’re on the list via draft or trade? Clubs can only carry so many on a list and if you’ve got as many as us why would you add another via the draft?

I think (admittedly anecdotally given I'm not digging up data points) that it is much harder to find a key forward via trade than a mid, runner, small forward, back or ruck.

Drafting isn't easy, by any means, but the more bets you place the more likely you are to hit. We've drafted so many mids and runners over the years (with success!), but typically good mids come onto the trade market more regularly than key forwards.

 

[loki04]

Actually I’m talking about winning flags. Success is not exclusive about Top picks.
As others have pointed out, Carlton should have been dominating the flag count if that was the case.

Using Picks to lower risk ( ie using for the known quantity of established players) is far more sensible than the roulette of the draft.
I really can’t understand why this simple risk management strategy is so difficult for you to grasp.

Because no team has built a team without hitting the draft and purely trading out. So quite obviously you need to establish a talented core before going all crazy vossy with your picks every year.

 

[sr36]

Thinking more about our long term and medium term lately, what player would compliment Nick?

HR

Tom Green would be ideal. Although I'd love to see Nick paired with a similar player to Nick to watch them flick it around and cut teams up - so Sheezel, Gulden, Rozee would be fun. Butters or Walsh would be great.

 

[loki04]

If you look at the last 20 years of Premierships, it's been the teams who tried to be as high up the ladder as possible who've won them. Sure they all had a couple of s**t years where they netted stars with early picks or luck with fayher sons, but Geelong, Sydney, WCE, Hawthorn, Collingwood and Ninthmond would be pretty low in terms of number of early picks per club in the years that built up to their flags.

Melbourne did it with a high number of early picks. But what it took was in 3 drafts getting the best player in the draft: Gawn(who wasn't an early pick), Petracca and Oliver. But even then they wouldn't have won without trading out early picks for Lever and May.

Maximizing early picks hasn't generally led to success. It's led to really long periods of being s**t and many of the early picks not developing very well.

20 years huh? the 00s were filled with Hawks, Richmond, Pies and WC all benefiting from low finishes and building core lists from them.
Using Sydney is an utter joke not only have they used low picks they have a 900k extra cap space for poaching stars typically one of the best kpf in comp aka lockett hall Franklyn.
They get a raft of early picks in each year through exclusive academy selections mills heeney etc. They have been afforded the ability to stay relevant due basically getting quality first round talents cheap every other year. As the years go on Syd GWS and GC are getting better and better at building these academies and talent pools.


Eventually you stop because you are on the rise and looking to consolidate, make finals and hopefully contend for years before the wheels fall off. This is where trading in both along the way cheap but savvy trades and also needs potentially stars with firsts.
Should you have enough high end players still capable of extending that window you rebuild on the run and trade in mature player to fill gaps. Father’s sons have helped us a lot in this regard.

Our use of future first trading to date has backfired and poor use of them.

 

[loki04]

Thinking more about our long term and medium term lately, what player would compliment Nick?

HR

Tom Green gws. Someone willing to get physical, do the dirty work, cover the defensive run a bull etc. likely 2 of them.

 

[sr36]

20 years huh? the 00s were filled with Hawks, Richmond, Pies and WC all benefiting from low finishes and building core lists from them.
Using Sydney is an utter joke not only have they used low picks they have a 900k extra cap space for poaching stars typically one of the best kpf in comp aka lockett hall Franklyn.
They get a raft of early picks in each year through exclusive academy selections mills heeney etc. They have been afforded the ability to stay relevant due basically getting quality first round talents cheap every other year. As the years go on Syd GWS and GC are getting better and better at building these academies and talent pools.


Eventually you stop because you are on the rise and looking to consolidate, make finals and hopefully contend for years before the wheels fall off. This is where trading in both along the way cheap but savvy trades and also needs potentially stars with firsts.
Should you have enough high end players still capable of extending that window you rebuild on the run and trade in mature player to fill gaps. Father’s sons have helped us a lot in this regard.

Our use of future first trading to date has backfired and poor use of them.

2002/3 wasn't from early picks. We had a s**t year when they gave you a second top 5 pick if you were s**t enough - that doesn't happen anymore - but we then got lucky to nab two stars. Overall though 2010 was full of rookies, late picks a couple of recruits, and a few early picks - we've had just as many early picks in 2023.

 

[loki04]

Dangerfield - what a player - do cats flag without him?
Yeo - bargain but would have been worth a first - WCE wouldn't have won without him
Prestia - more important than Lynch to their flags - fantastic use of pick 6
Neale - haven't flagged yet but what a fantastic use of Pick 6
Dunkley - fabulous player who hasn't flagged with Lions yet, but well worth an early pick
Sydney's Josh Kennedy - gotten on the cheap but would have been worth a first round pick - do Sydney flag without him?

THat's just some mids off the top of my head - probably more and some flankers that would also fit the bill too

Elite mids and KPP are worth future first rounders, as if you do fall they still were worth it typically.

Josh Kennedy struggled at Hawks to get consistent games which is why he sort out a trade to Swans, who got him cheap as chips.

Richmond had a bevy of mature top 10 picks in the team and lacked grunt spent pick 6 on gun GC hard nut on baller who was an original pick 9 himself.

We are not in the same phase of list building as some of the teams you listed, we are coming off a flag with 9 of our best 22, 30 ~ 36 years old.
On Malthouses famous premiership clock we are edging closer to 1am.

 

[brysie]

20 years huh? the 00s were filled with Hawks, Richmond, Pies and WC all benefiting from low finishes and building core lists from them.
Using Sydney is an utter joke not only have they used low picks they have a 900k extra cap space for poaching stars typically one of the best kpf in comp aka lockett hall Franklyn.
They get a raft of early picks in each year through exclusive academy selections mills heeney etc. They have been afforded the ability to stay relevant due basically getting quality first round talents cheap every other year. As the years go on Syd GWS and GC are getting better and better at building these academies and talent pools.


Eventually you stop because you are on the rise and looking to consolidate, make finals and hopefully contend for years before the wheels fall off. This is where trading in both along the way cheap but savvy trades and also needs potentially stars with firsts.
Should you have enough high end players still capable of extending that window you rebuild on the run and trade in mature player to fill gaps. Father’s sons have helped us a lot in this regard.

Our use of future first trading to date has backfired and poor use of them.

The club should institute some kind of sponsored player breeding program … a bit like Howard’s baby bonus scheme, only perhaps we can open an academy run by Peters Daicos and Moore, with every baby receiving a free Sherrin, a pair of boots and a flat screen tv that plays only Pies highlights … oh, and Jamie’s goal in rd. 23, 2022.

 

[brysie]

Elite mids and KPP are worth future first rounders, as if you do fall they still were worth it typically.

Josh Kennedy struggled at Hawks to get consistent games which is why he sort out a trade to Swans, who got him cheap as chips.

Richmond had a bevy of mature top 10 picks in the team and lacked grunt spent pick 6 on gun GC hard nut on baller who was an original pick 9 himself.

We are not in the same phase of list building as some of the teams you listed, we are coming off a flag with 9 of our best 22, 30 ~ 36 years old.
On Malthouses famous premiership clock we are edging closer to 1am.

Our clock is the closest thing to a Time Machine anyone’s ever seen

 

[sr36]

Elite mids and KPP are worth future first rounders, as if you do fall they still were worth it typically.

Josh Kennedy struggled at Hawks to get consistent games which is why he sort out a trade to Swans, who got him cheap as chips.

Richmond had a bevy of mature top 10 picks in the team and lacked grunt spent pick 6 on gun GC hard nut on baller who was an original pick 9 himself.

We are not in the same phase of list building as some of the teams you listed, we are coming off a flag with 9 of our best 22, 30 ~ 36 years old.
On Malthouses famous premiership clock we are edging closer to 1am.

Sorry Loki, but we wouldn't have won last year if it was up to your preferences. Wouldn't have had that fantastic ride 2022. Wouldn't have had that fantastic ride in 2018. Perhaps we would be on the verge of becoming a dynasty team - but I doubt it - getting the most top picks hasn't come close to equating with success. Build a good team, develop your recruits in a good team and hope that you get good enough to win has been the dominant model over recent years. Perhaps that's due to the monopoly that GC and GWS had - time will tell if dynasty teams rise up out of getting the most early picks - but it hasn't happened yet, despite a few teams having a crack at it.

 

[loki04]

Sorry Loki, but we wouldn't have won last year if it was up to your preferences. Wouldn't have had that fantastic ride 2022. Wouldn't have had that fantastic ride in 2018. Perhaps we would be on the verge of becoming a dynasty team - but I doubt it - getting the most top picks hasn't come close to equating with success. Build a good team, develop your recruits in a good team and hope that you get good enough to win has been the dominant model over recent years. Perhaps that's due to the monopoly that GC and GWS had - time will tell if dynasty teams rise up out of getting the most early picks - but it hasn't happened yet, despite a few teams having a crack at it.

When we had those discussions in the past I was not suggesting spending 4 plus seasons bottom 3 deliberately like Melbourne tried with a fire sale, never did, this was always you guys putting words in my mouth. I do think you need to dip to rise stronger but not in the exaggerated way you pretend I view it.

I’ve explained it many times.

I’ve also explained I’m not against trading in players at the right time, price or need filled, again you putting words in my mouth to exaggerate.


My rebuild ideal is a core of early picks, developing general talents and rookies, savvy trades along the way like your Josh Kennedy to syd for a 3rd rounder or Bobby hill for us last year. Keep hitting the draft whilst rising into the 8 then look at holes in the team and look to trade in from there.

No team ever in modern AFL has done it without the early drafting.

 

[sr36]

I’m not suggesting spending 4 plus seasons bottom 3 deliberately like Melbourne tried with a fire sale, never did, this was always you guys putting words in my mouth. I do think you need to dip to rise stronger but not in the exaggerated way you pretend I view it.

I’ve explained it many times.

I’ve also explained I’m not against trading in players at the right time, price or need filled, again you putting words in my mouth to exaggerate.


My rebuild ideal is a core of early picks, developing general talents and rookies, savvy trades along the way like your Josh Kennedy to syd for a 3rd rounder or Bobby hill for us last year. Keep hitting the draft whilst rising into the 8 then look at holes in the team and look to trade in from there.

No team ever in modern AFL has done it without the early drafting.

Most team in the modern have had some early picks. It's not just the Premiers - it's the wooden sponners as well. We've got Nick, Darcy, JDG - it's pretty much what Richmond had in terms of top early draft picks that came good. What we had. What most teams who've won have had. Most teams who have won haven't have had more cracks at getting stars from early picks.

You just get some early picks without having to force it or worry too much about it. What you need to worry about is developing a good team. If we didn't have those 3 stars already locked in for the next 5 and longer with Nick, you might have a point - we'd need to go star hunting - be it through the draft or trade - but we've got some stars - we need to flesh out the team around them to make us as good as possible to try to win another flag in the next 5 years.

 

[carndapies]

If things keep going the way they are… f**k it, we should ask for compensationary picks like North got

 

[No SPIN]

Because no team has built a team without hitting the draft and purely trading out. So quite obviously you need to establish a talented core before going all crazy vossy with your picks every year.

I’ve already offered the example of Carlton, and will add Melb, Ess, all burning 1st rounder,s. Rich missed finals for decades before finally breaking through. And I could go on.

Meanwhile we’ve won flags and stayed competitive with far less top picks.

I think I’ve made my point, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[sr36]

Elite mids and KPP are worth future first rounders, as if you do fall they still were worth it typically.

Josh Kennedy struggled at Hawks to get consistent games which is why he sort out a trade to Swans, who got him cheap as chips.

Richmond had a bevy of mature top 10 picks in the team and lacked grunt spent pick 6 on gun GC hard nut on baller who was an original pick 9 himself.

We are not in the same phase of list building as some of the teams you listed, we are coming off a flag with 9 of our best 22, 30 ~ 36 years old.
On Malthouses famous premiership clock we are edging closer to 1am.

Sounds like a silly rule to me. Don't see why it would be different than for current year firsts where a guy like IQ, Luke Jackson or Cyril ******* Rioli can be a fantastic selection with a first round pick.

 

[stormskye]

If this is our trade page 6 months after a flag, and 18 after a prelim, I wonder what the saints page is like

 

[adammania9]

Sounds like a silly rule to me. Don't see why it would be different than for current year firsts where a guy like IQ, Luke Jackson or Cyril ******* Rioli can be a fantastic selection with a first round pick.

The difference is a future first pick can be pick 1 or pick 18+. With a current first, you know what you're paying.

 

[sr36]

The difference is a future first pick can be pick 1 or pick 18+. With a current first, you know what you're paying.

I don't think it matters. You evaluate it's likely range and then trade it if you think the trade is worth it. Sometimes you'll gain because you've thought it was going to be a better pick - sometimes you'll lose because you thought it was going to be a worse pick. Unless you're terrible at predicting the range - it'll square up in the long run.

 

[sam_e]

2002/3 wasn't from early picks. We had a s**t year when they gave you a second top 5 pick if you were s**t enough - that doesn't happen anymore - but we then got lucky to nab two stars. Overall though 2010 was full of rookies, late picks a couple of recruits, and a few early picks - we've had just as many early picks in 2023.

In the golden era of 'In Hine We Trust', he (or his team**) picked six (6) out 'n out rookies that played in the 2010 GF / Premiership team: Maxwell, Toovs, Blair, Heritier, Caff & Wellingham (note: all flankers & running players) ..outstanding!

** = the recruiting fella (part of Hiney's team ..can't remember his name), who went to Melb, was reputedly a quality talent spotter too.

However, that GF team was also chock fulla 1st rounders (9 in total):

• 6 we directly DRAFTED in: Dids (3, 2000), Thomas (2, 2005), Pendles (5, 2005), Reidy (8, 2006), Brown (10, 2006), Sidey (11, 2008),
• 2 we TRADED in w/o using 1st rounder: L.Ball (#2, 2001) from StK for pick 30 (2nd rounder; nb: this was actually a draft pick given he 'walked' uncontracted but we were willing to trade for him) and L.Brown (#5, 1999) from Nth for pick 73
• 1 we TRADED in using a 1st rounder: D.Jolly (#31, rookie) from Swans for pick 14.

Surprisingly now (maybe not back then), the spine of that team was prioritised (& invested in) through the draft: 2 * 1st rounders for Reidy & Brown as key backs and 2 * 2nd rounders for Cloke (F/S #39, 2004; but realistically a 1st rounder in open market) & Dawes (#28, 2006).

In the years leading up to 2010, we had certainly not yet discovered our aversion to sourcing KP players through the draft (and ones that genuinely display big man skills) nor our penchant for valuing & throwing around 1st rounders like confetti.

 

[sr36]

In the golden era of 'In Hine We Trust', he (or his team**) picked six (6) out 'n out rookies that played in the 2010 GF / Premiership team: Maxwell, Toovs, Blair, Heritier, Caff & Wellingham (note: all flankers & running players) ..outstanding!

** = the recruiting fella (part of Hiney's team ..can't remember his name), who went to Melb, was reputedly a quality talent spotter too.

However, that GF team was also chock fulla 1st rounders (9 in total):

• 6 we directly DRAFTED in: Dids (3, 2000), Thomas (2, 2005), Pendles (5, 2005), Reidy (8, 2006), Brown (10, 2006), Sidey (11, 2008),
• 2 we TRADED in w/o using 1st rounder: L.Ball (#2, 2001) from StK for pick 30 (2nd rounder; nb: this was actually a draft pick given he 'walked' uncontracted but we were willing to trade for him) and L.Brown (#5, 1999) from Nth for pick 73
• 1 we TRADED in using a 1st rounder: D.Jolly (#31, rookie) from Swans for pick 14.

Surprisingly now (maybe not back then), the spine of that team was prioritised (& invested in) through the draft: 2 * 1st rounders for Reidy & Brown as key backs and 2 * 2nd rounders for Cloke (F/S #39, 2004; but realistically a 1st rounder in open market) & Dawes (#28, 2006).

In the years leading up to 2010, we had certainly not yet discovered our aversion to sourcing KP players through the draft (and ones that genuinely display big man skills) nor our penchant for valuing & throwing around 1st rounders like confetti.

THe 2006 draft where we got Brown, Reid and Dawes was chock full of tall talent. Of the first 17 taken - 10 KPPs and 2 rucks. I don't think we developed an aversion to taking talls - I think it's just that we stuck to best available under our rankings and that year was a strange one where the best available were talls.

So we've seen two flags during the Hine era - one where we drafted in some early pick talls and one where we didn't - I liked them both. Why are you so certain that the early pick tall drafts were the better way to go?

Making a big deal about Leigh Brown and Ball having previously been first rounders is a bit silly when we didn't use a pick close to get them. It'd be like talking up WHE and Mitchell as first round selections for us.

 

[memoryofmchale]

Poults is co-owner, with McCreery, in an apparel biz called 'Rager'. Looks like it's starting to take-off so ..

RAGER (@ragerragerr) • Instagram photos and videos

8,648 Followers, 2 Following, 24 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from RAGER (@ragerragerr)

www.instagram.com

Beau's been repping it a lot, seen other players in it, too. Probably do well, even if it is in a crowded market.

Trenna had a brand called TB Threads when he played, Swan had one a while ago.

 

[sam_e]

THe 2006 draft where we got Brown, Reid and Dawes was chock full of tall talent. Of the first 17 taken - 10 KPPs and 2 rucks. I don't think we developed an aversion to taking talls - I think it's just that we stuck to best available under our rankings and that year was a strange one where the best available were talls.

So we've seen two flags during the Hine era - one where we drafted in some early pick talls and one where we didn't - I liked them both. Why are you so certain that the early pick tall drafts were the better way to go?

Making a big deal about Leigh Brown and Ball having previously been first rounders is a bit silly when we didn't use a pick close to get them. It'd be like talking up WHE and Mitchell as first round selections for us.

one man's garbage is another man's treasure

i'm not sure 'silly' makes for a good argument or rationale. it's just definitional ..at some point, the market has valued those players as 1st rounders and since we don't mark-to-market their value, i'll use it as a baseline. they're also examples where you can find (and we have found) value pick-ups that have worked in our favour, without offloading 1st round draft picks.

not suggesting 'early pick tall drafts are the way to go' ..my point & strong preference is simply that we should go to the draft (more often than not) with our 1st rounders in-tact and only trade em out (current &/or future 1sts) if there's genuine quality KP or bonafide gun on the table.

 

[Aussie pie]

Ok so I’ve been reading through the posts re the tall KPF debate in drafting them early etc blah blah blah.
So in the AFL team our KPF is 193cm Reef who’s a midfielder or AJ who’s a third tall at best. So let’s go to the VFL, oops we can’t because we have no one but Krueger who if he sneezes to hard breaks a rib and is really a crap forward.
My point being that they don’t draft them in any round and if they make a trade they get McStay who again is not really a key forward but we give him a long contract and a truck load of money.

We know Dekka is the problem and we get pushed around with trades either paying too much or accepting too little. The Grundy deal was terrible as was Treloar. We got screwed by other clubs and by terrible list management and we’re expected to deal with it.

I’ve said it many times I’m so glad we won the flag but what’s the cost long term. I have to remind myself that we won in 2023 and not go all “sack them all” “burn the place down” like Ive sometimes done. Mind you I was right about getting rid of Eddie and Bucks.

 

[Ugene41]

Ok so I’ve been reading through the posts re the tall KPF debate in drafting them early etc blah blah blah.
So in the AFL team our KPF is 193cm Reef who’s a midfielder or AJ who’s a third tall at best. So let’s go to the VFL, oops we can’t because we have no one but Krueger who if he sneezes to hard breaks a rib and is really a crap forward.
My point being that they don’t draft them in any round and if they make a trade they get McStay who again is not really a key forward but we give him a long contract and a truck load of money.

We know Dekka is the problem and we get pushed around with trades either paying too much or accepting too little. The Grundy deal was terrible as was Treloar. We got screwed by other clubs and by terrible list management and we’re expected to deal with it.

I’ve said it many times I’m so glad we won the flag but what’s the cost long term. I have to remind myself that we won in 2023 and not go all “sack them all” “burn the place down” like Ive sometimes done. Mind you I was right about getting rid of Eddie and Bucks.

Ned Guy was in charge of trading out Treloar and Graham Wright was in charge of trading out Grundy.