List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade & FA 2024

[ThePheonix]

Teams like StKilda have their goal to win a premiership, which is admirable, though Collingwood have achieved that, in 1990, 2010 and now again in 2023.

In my life time I’ve seen Carlton’s , Essendon’s, Hawthorn’s dynasty's of the 80’s, then Geelong’s, Hawthorn's (their second) and Richmond’s dynasty’s. Considering we are the biggest in the land and that we haven’t had a dynasty since the 1930’s, nearly a century ago, I’ve expected to witness at least one Collingwood dynasty in my life time.

I don’t know maybe I’m asking too much.

 

[brysie]

Unless you have early draft picks (and lets face it the Northern and emerging clubs will always get the best of those) then the only other way to get priority players (guns) is through recruitment.

The "myth" about Geelong having the best recruiters is just that....a myth. Truth is they have a POOL of players every year from their ever burgeoning districts down here (Colac to Queenscliff) that are identified early and then fast tracked via the football factory private schools (Geelong Grammar, College and St.Joey's) straight into the NGA's and The Falcons programs where the very best are then linked to "Geelong Friendly" player managers and sponsors that see to it that these young lads are made very comfortable in their Geelong based communities. When drafting time arrives, sure some of them get picked by oppo and interstate clubs but they are always made aware that "if they ever want to come HOME"...then they'll be very well looked after. And the cream of the Falcons who don't get picked up (who maybe need another year or two to mature physically or who haven't been played in position by the Falcons hierarchy) well they get well remunerated local positions amongst GFL and GDFL teams where they can always be redrafted by the Cats as they see fit...(think Tom Stewart).

So the real crux of Geelong's "brilliant" recruiting has been:
(a) their links to their local footy comps and in particular their local private schools who can provide the Falcons with a never ending stream of top line talent

and

(b) their establishment of a series of "Geelong friendly player managers" who get the players they want when they want them. (Think Patrick, Jeremy Cameron, Ollie Henry)...they've played the go home card on many occasions.

For Collingwood (or indeed any other large Melbourne based club) to emulate this type of scheme we'd be up against 6-7 other clubs all fighting for the same talent. Our links to the Chargers are obvious but as they play and train in a city of 3+ million people, they're obviously more open to being seen and much harder to hide players in a local competition than it is here down in sleepy hollow. We (all the Melbourne clubs) also have no "go home factor" because our lads are already in the biggest footy city in the country and there's only "other" places to go.

Our only hope IS and has been for quite a while to establish a network of "Pies friendly player managers" that steer their proteges towards us instead of interstate or down Geelong road. The arrival of Graham Wright and now Ned Kelly have me hoping that finally (after more than a decade of watching Stephen Wells and his gang manipulate player movement amongst the AFL) that we'd finally start getting our share of the GUN players who want to test the market.

I'm tired of watching trade periods where we hold no sway, where the Locketts, Quinlan's, Lynch's, Daniher's and Cameron's get traded all around us and we don't ever stand a chance.

Player managers hold the keys to the kingdom now and in Wright and Kelly we should have a pretty good guide into how best to deal with them.

It's also interesting how Geelong seem to be able to afford everything - part of this I think is more an illusion than reality, but it doesn't stop the media linking every returning player to Geelong, irrespective of what their cap space might actually be.

Still, rumours about large tracts of land and farms being set aside for players remain persistent.

 

[Aussie pie]

Dekka isn’t to blame for trades. That was Wright.

Grundy and Treloar were Ned Guy specials. He was a player agent and acted like one in a role where you have to try and secure players at the lowest price.

We have the tallest player in AFL history (allegedly - Cox isn’t sure of his height) and a proud tradition of key forwards.

Fair enough on the Ned Guy part, i think I had some misplaced anger there your right, still some crap list management.

A proud tradition of key forwards? if you missed what I’ve been saying forever, my point is we don’t draft key forwards. Cloke our last one was f/s and we had to draft the other two to make sure of him. The last decent forward we drafted was 2 decades ago, Taz and we got rid of him and got him back as a backman, before that mid 90’s Sav Rocca.
We got Reid and Brown and made them into backs then when Reid was completely shot re his body we play him forward.
My gripe is that we don’t develop key forwards, as I’ve heard the club say many times that they’d prefer to trade for them but when you have no trade capital because of poor list management you get players like McStay not Cameron or Lynch for example. Now I’ve heard rumours that Lobb is being looked at, if that’s true then Ive had enough, I’m out.

 

[Horaceg]

Teams like StKilda have their goal to win a premiership, which is admirable, though Collingwood have achieved that, in 1990, 2010 and now again in 2023.

In my life time I’ve seen Carlton’s , Essendon’s, Hawthorn’s dynasty's of the 80’s, then Geelong’s, Hawthorn's (their second) and Richmond’s dynasty’s. Considering we are the biggest in the land and that we haven’t had a dynasty since the 1930’s, nearly a century ago, I’ve expected to witness at least one Collingwood dynasty in my life time.

I don’t know maybe I’m asking too much.

It’s what we all want, everyone else fighting for second place.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

It's also interesting how Geelong seem to be able to afford everything - part of this I think is more an illusion than reality, but it doesn't stop the media linking every returning player to Geelong, irrespective of what their cap space might actually be.

Still, rumours about large tracts of land and farms being set aside for players remain persistent.

So really that's no different to Carlton & the paper bags full of cash under the table?

 

[Aussie pie]

I'd qualify this slightly by asking whether Hine is the best recruiter for our current circumstances and future needs.

Regardless, I don't think it's a binary proposition. Hypothetically, Hine may be the best recruiter across the last 20 years of picks between 20 and 40; if you can attract the best recruiter of picks between 1 and 20 across the last 20 years, and Hine is prepared to work with that recruiter, you just conclude that a dual recruitment strategy is the best to go forward with.

If Hine isn't prepared to work with that person, then the pros and cons need to be considered and ultimately Wright and the Board will need to make a decision on whether to stick with Hine, or go in a new direction.

As has been pointed out to me Hine recruits re “best Available list” rather than position specific. I’d say when you’re in our current position of no key forwards, picking another flanker because he might be next on the list seems pretty stupid. Sure there’s no guarantee on any player but when you have no depth in a position you don’t ignore it because someone else is higher on the list.

 

[memoryofmchale]

Fair enough on the Ned Guy part, i think I had some misplaced anger there your right, still some crap list management.

A proud tradition of key forwards? if you missed what I’ve been saying forever, my point is we don’t draft key forwards. Cloke our last one was f/s and we had to draft the other two to make sure of him. The last decent forward we drafted was 2 decades ago, Taz and we got rid of him and got him back as a backman, before that mid 90’s Sav Rocca.
We got Reid and Brown and made them into backs then when Reid was completely shot re his body we play him forward.
My gripe is that we don’t develop key forwards, as I’ve heard the club say many times that they’d prefer to trade for them but when you have no trade capital because of poor list management you get players like McStay not Cameron or Lynch for example. Now I’ve heard rumours that Lobb is being looked at, if that’s true then Ive had enough, I’m out.

Historically, we have had some of the best keys including one of the GOATS (his height for the time was that of a key).

 

[brysie]

As has been pointed out to me Hine recruits re “best Available list” rather than position specific. I’d say when you’re in our current position of no key forwards, picking another flanker because he might be next on the list seems pretty stupid. Sure there’s no guarantee on any player but when you have no depth in a position you don’t ignore it because someone else is higher on the list.

My post was in response to whether Hine is the best recruiter going around. This in my opinion is highly subjective.

I don't really have a view on Hine's drafting strategy, as I don't definitively know if he has one, hence why I said hypothetically. The club and football department would know whether he has certain rules or preferences and if so, what they are.

As others have pointed out, our current position has netted us 2 flags and we have, in Hine's time, remained consistently competitive. While he's not the sole reason for our success, or our failure, Hine deserves to take some credit for this.

I'm merely advocating for the club to continually consider and review whether the people that are currently in place are the right people to take us forward from this point in time. If picking another flanker or the best available is deemed an unsuitable strategy going forward, and Hine either refuses or can't change his methods, then I expect the club to act to remedy this.

 

[brysie]

So really that's no different to Carlton & the paper bags full of cash under the table?

Possibly. Until proven though, Carlton's previous indiscretions are largely irrelevant.

I'm not familiar with the measures the AFL takes to audit clubs' player payments etc., however I've never really heard anyone in the media raise it either, whether it's in relation to Geelong or anyone else. I expect the AFL likes to keep things that way.

 

[sr36]

As has been pointed out to me Hine recruits re “best Available list” rather than position specific. I’d say when you’re in our current position of no key forwards, picking another flanker because he might be next on the list seems pretty stupid. Sure there’s no guarantee on any player but when you have no depth in a position you don’t ignore it because someone else is higher on the list.

Strategy decisions are always going to be committee based (unless someone above Hine is into captain's calls). He's not the boss - if he gets told from a committee or his boss that he has to draft a KPF with our next pick - he will. He wouldn't have survived 3 different footy departments if he was my way or the highway.

 

[sam_e]

Collingwood recruiting history of talls since 2001

• Tall = anyone recruited at or > 192 cms
• HIT ie. success = anyone who played 50 games or more at COLL once drafted or traded in (or went on to play > 50 games elsewhere). The definition of a HIT is arguably set at reasonably LOW bar of circa 2 seasons of AFL.
• +HIT ie. real success = anyone who played 100 games or more at COLL once drafted or traded in (or went on to play > 100 games elsewhere).

Observations:

• 213 players (total) brought in to the club 2001-23
• Of those, 67 (31%) have been TALL (192cm or >)
• Of the 67, 58 recruited 2001-19 and 9 recruited since 2020 (for latter cohort, too early to determine HIT or FAIL)
• Of the 67 TALLS, 19 (28%) have been National Draft (ND) selections; 36 (54%) rookie /int'l rooks /MSD /SSP etc; and 12 (18%) traded in (trade/UFA)
  • Of the 19 Tall ND selections, 12 came before 2008
  • In last 10-yrs, only 5 Talls came from ND selections, with 2 of those Father-Sons (Moore, Kelly)
• Of the 58 TALLS (up to 2019), 19 (33%) have been HITS (ie. played >50 games)
• Of the 58 TALLS, (up to 2019), 14 (24%) have been +HITS (ie. played >100 games)
• Of the 14 TALL +HITS (ie. played >100 games), 8 (71%) were ND selections (Reid, Brown, Grundy, Moore, Witts, Goldsack, Dawes, Cloke); 2 were traded in (J.Ceglar, D.Cameron ..only played 74 games but i'm projecting 100+) and 4 were rookies (Miho, Cox, Keeffe, Maxwell)

		Ttl Games /Coll games	HIT/ FAIL	age	hght	wght	origin club	goals	votes	awards
2001​	11 players in; 5 talls (2 ND); 0 HITS
National Draft pick 27	Tom Davidson	1	FAIL	18yr	192cm	87kg	Geelong U18	0​	0​
National Draft pick 72	Tristen Walker	28	FAIL	17yr	195cm	100kg	Claremont	8​	0​
Pre-Season Draft pick 4	Scott Cummings	5	FAIL	27yr	194cm	105kg	Swan Districts	6​	0​
Rookie	James Podsiadly	104 (0)	FAIL	20yr	193cm	100kg	Geelong (VFL)	195​	23​	Prem '11
Rookie	Justin Crow	1	FAIL	18yr	196cm	92kg	Oakleigh U18	0	0​
2002​	12 players in; 2 talls (1 ND as F/S); 1 HIT (Rooks)
National Draft (F/S)	Cameron Cloke	58 (21)	FAIL	17yr	196cm	100kg	Eastern U18	36​	1​
Rookie Draft p	Nick Maxwell	208	HIT	19yr	193cm	93kg	St Joseph's College/	29​	3​	AA: 2009; Prem: 2010
2003​	8 players in; 3 talls (2 ND); 0 HITS
National Draft pick 17	Billy Morrison	0	FAIL	17yr	192cm	98kg	North Hobart	0​	0​
National Draft pick 35	Brent Hall	1	FAIL	17yr	198cm	97kg	South Fremantle	0	0​
Rookie	David Fanning	14	FAIL	19yr	204cm	97kg	Aberfeldie	4​	0​
2004​	8 players in; 1 tall (1 ND as F/S); 1 HIT (ND F/S)
National Draft (F/S)	Travis Cloke	256 (246)	HIT	17yr	196cm	108kg	Eastern U18	452	48​	AA: 2011, 2013; B&F: 2007; Prem: 2010​
2005​	9 players in; 1 tall (1 ND); 0 HITS
National Draft pick 37	John Anthony	51 (43)	FAIL	17yr	192cm	94kg	Northern U18	83​	1​
2006​	10 players in; 5 talls (4 ND); 4 HITS (all ND)
National Draft pick 8	Ben Reid	152	HIT	17yr	195cm	102kg	Murray U18	73	9​	AA: 2011; Prem: 2010​
National Draft pick 10	Nathan Brown	183 (130)	HIT	17yr	195cm	101kg	Ballarat FC/St Patrick's College/North Ballarat U18	7​	0​	Prem: 2010
National Draft pick 28	Chris Dawes	121 (71)	HIT	18yr	193cm	105kg105kg	Sandringham U18	130	3​	Prem: 2010​
National Draft pick 63	Tyson Goldsack	165	HIT	19yr	193cm	92kg	Pakenham/Gippsland U18	50​	0​	Prem: 2010
Pre-Season Draft pick 8	Chris Bryan	30	FAIL	24yr	197cm	99kg	U18/Sandringham	10	1​
2007​	6 players in; 3 talls (0 ND); 0 HITS
Trade	Cameron Wood	72 (48)	FAIL	20yr	204cm	105kg	Goodwood/Glenunga HS/West Adelaide	28​	0​
National Draft pick 47	Tobias Thoolen	0	FAIL	17yr	196cm	95kg	Bendigo U18	0​	0​
Rookie	Luke Casey-Leigh	0	FAIL	18yr	196cm	88kg	Sandringham U18	0​	0​
2008​	11 players in; 3 talls (0 ND); 2 HITS (1 trade /1 rooks)
Trade	Leigh Brown	65	HIT	26yr	194cm	104kg	Gippsland U18	54	1​
Rookie	Lachlan Keeffe	111 (40)	HIT	18yr	204cm	102kg	Marist College Ashgrove/Old Trinity	18​	0​
Rookie	Scott Reed	0	FAIL	18yr	192cm	85kg	NSW-ACT U18	0	0​
2009​	8 players in; 3 talls (0 ND); 1 HIT (trade)
Trade	Darren Jolly	71	HIT	27yr	200cm	108kg	North Ballarat	52	8​	Prem: 2010​
Rookie	Jack Carter	0	FAIL	17yr	194cm	88kg	West Adelaide	0	0​
Intl Rookie	Shae McNamara	0	FAIL	24yr	204cm	104kg	USA	0​	0​
2010​	14 players in; 6 talls (0 ND); 1 HIT (trade)
Trade	Jonathon Ceglar	110 (0)	HIT	19yr	204cm	94kg	Wodonga Raiders/Murray U18	43​	4​
Rookie	Tom Young	28 (9)	FAIL	18yr	192cm	90kg	5	0​
Rookie	Thomas Gordon	0	FAIL	18yr	194cm	90kg	NSW-ACT U18	0​	0​
Rookie	Declan Reilly	0	FAIL	17yr	193cm	85kg	Sandringham U18	0​	0​
Rookie	Jack Perham	0	FAIL	20yr	192cm	86kg	East Fremantle	0​	0​
2011​	10 players in; 3 talls (2 ND); 1 HIT (ND)
National Draft pick 65	Corey Gault	6	FAIL	18yr	198cm	94kg	Swan Districts	4	0​
National Draft pick 67	Jarrod Witts	165 (40)	HIT	19yr	208cm	113kg	NSW-ACT U18	33​	10​	B&F: 2019; AA40: 2022
Rookie	Michael Hartley	49 (0)	FAIL	18yr	199cm	100kg	NSW-ACT U18	2​	0​
2012​	13 players in; 5 talls (1 ND); 2 HITS (1 ND, 1 Rooks)
Un Free Agent	Quinten Lynch	18	FAIL	29yr	192cm	103kg	Gibson/Aquinas College (WA)/West Perth	9​	0​
National Draft pick 18	Brodie Grundy	194 (177)	HIT	18yr	202cm	101kg	Unley/Cabra Dominican/Sturt	70​	65​	AA: 2018, 2019; B&F: 2018, 2019
Rookie	Jack Frost	56 (54)	HIT	20yr	194cm	89kg	Williamstown	0	1​
Rookie	Ben Hudson	7	FAIL	33yr	199cm	106KG	Werribee	1	0​
Rookie	Ben Richmond	0	FAIL	19yr	196cm	97kg	Basketball	0​	0​
2013​	8 players in; 2 talls (1 ND); 1 HIT (trade)
Trade	Jesse White	56	HIT	25yr	196cm	102kg	Southport	75	0​
National Draft pick 77	Jonathon Marsh	26 (15)	FAIL	17yr	193cm	87kg	Augusta Margaret River/East Fremantle	3​	0​
2014​	10 players in; 2 talls (1 ND as F/S); 2 HITS (1 ND, 1 rooks)
National Draft (FS)	Darcy Moore	150	HIT	18yr	199cm	93kg	OAKLEIGH U18	67​	12​	AA: 2020, 2023; Prem: 2023
Intl Rookie	Mason Cox	113	HIT	23yr	211cm	110kg	USA	117	8​	Prem: 2023​
2015​	10 players in; 1 tall (0 ND); 0 HITS
Rookie	Darrean Wyatt	0	FAIL	22yr	203cm	98kg	Basketball	0​	0​
2016​	12 players in; 5 talls (1 ND); 0 HITS
Trade	Lynden Dunn	33	FAIL	29yr	192cm	98kg	Moonee Valley/Calder U18	2​	0​
National Draft pick 30	Sam McLarty	0	FAIL	18yr	193cm	93kg	Yarra Valley Grammar/Beverley Hills/Oakleigh U18	0​	0​
Rookie	Mitch McCarthy	0	FAIL	18yr	196cm	87kg	Langwarrin/Mount Eliza/Frankston HS/Basketball/Dandenong U18	0​	0​
Rookie	Henry Schade	8	FAIL	22yr	196cm	86kg	Sandy Bay/North Hobart/Tasmania U18	1​	0​
Rookie	Max Lynch	11 (3)	FAIL	18yr	200cm	96kg	Murray U18	4	0​
2017​	7 players in; 2 talls (0 ND); 1 HIT (rooks)
Unregistered Player Selection	Jack Madgen	49	FAIL	24yr	196cm	95kg	Basketball	2​	0​
Rookie	Brody Mihocek	126	HIT	24yr	192cm	97kg	Port Melbourne	212​	17​	Prem: 2023
2018​	9 players in; 5 talls (1 ND); 1 HIT (trade)
Trade	Jordan Roughead	63	HIT	27yr	200cm	101kg	North Ballarat	1​	0​
Unregistered Player Selection	Tom Wilson	8	FAIL	21yr	194cm	77kg	Basketball	2	0​
National Draft pick 29	Will Kelly	5	FAIL	18yr	196cm	87kg	Oakleigh U18	1	0​
Int'l Rookie	Mark Keane	10 (5)	FAIL	18yr	194cm	96kg	County Cork	0	0​
Int'l Rookie	Anton Tohill	1	FAIL	18yr	198cm	86kg	County Derry	0	0​
2019​	4 players in; 1 tall (0 ND); 1 HIT (trade)
Trade	Darcy Cameron	71	HIT	24yr	204cm	101kg	North Albany/Hale School/Claremont	51​	4​	Prem: 2023
2020​	10 players in; 3 talls (1 ND); TBC
National Draft pick 31	Liam McMahon	0	FAIL	18yr	194cm	80kg	Northern U18	0​	0​
Mid-Season Draft pick 3	Ash Johnson	24	TBC	23yr	193cm	85kg	Sturt	36​	0​
Mid-Season Draft pick 18	Aiden Begg	3	TBC	17yr	197cm	87kg	Eastern U18	0​	0​
2021​	8 players in; 2 talls (0 ND); TBC
Trade	Nathan Kreuger	7	FAIL	22yr	196cm	86kg	South Adelaide	4​	0​
Rookie	Charlie Dean	0	TBC	20yr	195cm	86kg	Williamstown	2​	0​
2022​	9 players in; 3 talls (0 ND); TBC
Trade	Billy Frampton	16	TBC	25yr	200cm	90kg	South Fremantle	16​	7​	Prem: 2023
Un. Free Agent	Daniel McStay	14	TBC	27yr	196cm	87kg	Eastern U18	14​	20​
SSP	Oscar Steene	0	TBC	19yr	201cm	85kg	West Adelaide	0​	0​
2023​	6 players in; 1 tall (0 ND); TBC
SSP	Josh Eyre	0	TBC	20yr	197cm	85kg	Calder U18	0	0​
		Ttl players 'in'	Ttl TALLS 'in'	ND Talls	HITS >50	Source of 'HITS'
2001​	11 players in; 5 talls (2 ND); 0 HITS	11	5​	2​	0​
2002​	12 players in; 2 talls (1 ND as F/S); 1 HIT (Rooks)	12	2​	1​	1​	Rooks
2003​	8 players in; 3 talls (2 ND); 0 HITS	8	3​	2​	0​
2004​	8 players in; 1 tall (1 ND as F/S); 1 HIT (ND F/S)	8	1​	1​	1​	ND F/S
2005​	9 players in; 1 tall (1 ND); 0 HITS	9	1​	1​	0​
2006​	10 players in; 5 talls (4 ND); 4 HITS (all ND)	10	5​	4​	4​	4 * ND
2007​	6 players in; 3 talls (0 ND); 0 HITS	6	3​	0​	0​
2008​	11 players in; 3 talls (0 ND); 2 HITS (1 trade /1 rooks)	11	3​	0​	2​	1 Trade, 1 rooks
2009​	8 players in; 3 talls (0 ND); 1 HIT (trade)	8	3​	0​	1​	Trade
2010​	14 players in; 6 talls (0 ND); 1 HIT (trade)	14	6​	0​	1​	Trade
2011​	10 players in; 3 talls (2 ND); 1 HIT (ND)	10	3​	2​	1​	ND
2012​	13 players in; 5 talls (1 ND); 2 HITS (1 ND, 1 Rooks)	13	5​	1​	2​	1 ND, 1 Rooks
2013​	8 players in; 2 talls (1 ND); 1 HIT (trade)	8	2​	1​	1​	Trade
2014​	10 players in; 2 talls (1 ND as F/S); 2 HITS (1 ND, 1 rooks)	10	2​	1​	2​	1 ND, 1 rooks
2015​	10 players in; 1 tall (0 ND); 0 HITS	10	1​	0​	0​
2016​	12 players in; 5 talls (1 ND); 0 HITS	12	5​	1​	0​
2017​	7 players in; 2 talls (0 ND); 1 HIT (rooks)	7	2​	0​	1​	Rooks
2018​	9 players in; 5 talls (1 ND); 1 HIT (trade)	9	5​	1​	1​	Trade
2019​	4 players in; 1 tall (0 ND); 1 HIT (trade)	4	1​	0​	1​	Trade
Totals '01/'19	180	58	18	19​
32%​	31%​	33%​
TBC ie. too early to tell
2020​	10 players in; 3 talls (1 ND); TBC	10	3​	1​
2021​	8 players in; 2 talls (0 ND); TBC	8	2​	0​
2022​	9 players in; 3 talls (0 ND); TBC	9	3​	0​
2023​	6 players in; 1 tall (0 ND)	6	1​	0​
33	9	1
27%	11%
TOTALS	213	67	19
31%​	28%​

********************************************
Geelong recruiting history of talls since 2001

• Tall = anyone recruited at or > 192 cms
• HIT ie. success = anyone who played 50 games or more at GEE once drafted or traded in (or went on to play > 50 games elsewhere). The definition of a HIT is arguably set at reasonably LOW bar of circa 2 seasons of AFL.
• +HIT ie. real success = anyone who played 100 games or more at GEE once drafted or traded in (or went on to play > 100 games elsewhere).

Observations:

• 200 [v Coll. 213] players (total) brought in to the club 2001-23
• Note: numbers in [parenthesis], square brackets, represent Coll. comparatives
• Of those 200, 68, 34% [v67, 31%] have been TALL (192cm or >)
• Of the 68 [v67], 56 [v58] recruited 2001-19 and 12 [v9] recruited since 2020 (for latter cohort, too early to determine HIT or FAIL)
• Of the 68 TALLS, 38 or 56% [v19, 28%] have been National Draft (ND) selections; 19, 28% [v36, 54%] rookie /int'l rooks /MSD /SSP/UFA etc; and 11, 16% [v12, 18%] traded in (trade)
  • Of the 38 [v19] Tall ND selections, 16 [v12] came before 2008
  • In last 10-yrs, 15 Talls came from ND selections [v COLL with only 5, and 2 of those Father-Sons]
• Of the 56 [v58] TALLS (up to 2019), 23, 41% [v19, 33%] have been HITS (ie. played >50 games) + J.Cameron a HIT (recruited 2020)
• Of the 56 [v58] TALLS, (up to 2019), 14, 25% [v14, 24%] have been +HITS (ie. played >100 games) + J.Cameron a projected +HIT (recruited 2020)
• Of the [v15] TALL +HITS (ie. played >100 games), 8, 53% [v8, 71%] were ND selections; 3 [v2] were traded in and 4 [v4] were rookies

CONCLUSION(S):

• In period 2001-2023, Geelong recruited 68 talls v Coll 67
• Geel recruited 38 (56%) of those talls via ND vs Coll 19 (28%)
• Geelong twice more likely to use ND selection on a tall and they have done this consistently over the period with average 2-3 ND talls brought in each year'ish
• Coll reliant more heavily on non-ND (Rookies / Int'l /MSD / SSP) selections for recruiting talls
• Comparative success:
  • Geelong have had 24 [19] of those TALLS play 50 games & 15 [14] play 100 games
  • Geelong have won 4 premierships (2007, 09, 11, 22) vs Collingwood 2 (2010, 23)

*****************************************

	Ttl IN	TALLS IN	# ND Talls	HIT	Source	+HIT	Source
2001​	13	3	2	1	ND
2002​	8	3	2	2	2*ND	2	2*ND
2003​	9	3	2	1	ND	1	ND
2004​	7	3	1	2	ND, Trade	1	Trade
2005​	7	3	1	1	ND
2006​	7	1	4	1	ND	1	ND
2007​	9	6	4	2	ND, Rooks	2	ND, Rooks
2008​	8	2	1	1	ND
2009​	10	3		2	ND, Rooks	1	Rooks
2010​	8	2	2	1	Rooks	1	Rooks
2011​	9	3	2	2	ND, Rooks	1	Rooks
2012​	5	2
2013​	7	3	2	1	ND	1	ND
2014​	10	5		1	Trade	1	Trade
2015​	11	4	2	3	ND, 2*Trade
2016​	13	4	3	1	ND	1	ND
2017​	6	1	1
2018​	12	3	1
2019​	7	2	1	1	ND	1	ND
		56		23		14
2020​	7	4	2	1	Trade	1	Trade
2021​	10	3	2
2022​	9	1	1
2023​	8	4	2
		12		1		1
	200	68	38	24	15 ND; 4 Rooks; 5 Trade	15	8 ND; 4 Rooks; 3 Trade
		34%	56%

********************************************

2001

Past Games

Acquired Via

Player

Games

HIT 50

+HIT 100

Age

Height

Weight

Goals

Votes

Awards

1​

77

Trade

Brent Grgic

13

FAIL

21yr

192cm

93kg

3

0

2​

National Draft pick 41

Henry Playfair

68 (52)

HIT

18yr

198cm

97kg

43

0

3​

National Draft pick 69

Matthew McCarthy

22

FAIL

19yr

198cm

105kg

24

1

2002

4​

National Draft pick 7

Andrew Mackie

280

HIT

+HIT

18yr

192cm

86kg

100

14

AA: 2013; AA40: 2008, 2009; Prem: 2007, 2009, 2011

5​

National Draft pick 23

Tom Lonergan

209

HIT

+HIT

18yr

197cm

93kg

55

0

AA40: 2012, 2014; Prem: 2011

6​

Rookie Draft pick 8

Jeff Smith

0

FAIL

20yr

198cm

0

2003

7​

11

Trade

David Loats

1

FAIL

22yr

200cm

98kg

0

0

National Draft pick 38

Mark Blake

100

18yr

200cm

102kg

12

2

Prem: 2009

8​

(FS)

HIT

+HIT

9​

National Draft pick 42

Matthew Spencer

2

FAIL

18yr

194cm

98kg

0

0

2004

10​

129

Trade

Brad Ottens

116

HIT

+HIT

24yr

202cm

106kg

109

9

Prem: 2007, 2009, 2011

National Draft pick 48

Nathan Ablett

34 (32)

18yr

194cm

96kg

47

0

Prem: 2007

11​

(FS)

FAIL

12​

National Draft pick 62

Matthew Egan

59

HIT

21yr

196cm

101kg

1

2

AA: 2007

2005

13​

National Draft pick 31

Trent West

70 (54)

HIT

17yr

199cm

103kg

28

0

Prem: 2011

14​

Rookie Draft pick 12

Todd Grima

0

FAIL

18yr

192cm

88kg

0

0

15​

7

Rookie Draft pick 41

Sam Hunt

0

FAIL

22yr

193cm

92kg

0

0

2006

National Draft pick 41

Tom Hawkins

347

18yr

197cm

105kg

781

73

AA: 2012, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022; Coleman: 2020; B&F: 2012; AA40: 2014, 2018; Prem: 2009, 2011, 2022

16​

(FS)

HIT

+HIT

2007

17​

National Draft pick 17

Harry Taylor

280

HIT

+HIT

21yr

193cm

96kg

75

40

AA: 2010, 2013; AA40: 2011, 2012, 2014; Prem: 2009, 2011

18​

National Draft pick 34

Dawson Simpson

48 (28)

FAIL

18yr

206cm

109kg

5

1

19​

National Draft pick 44

Scott Simpson

0

FAIL

17yr

196cm

92kg

0

0

20​

National Draft pick 50

Dan McKenna

0

FAIL

18yr

195cm

85kg

0

0

21​

Rookie Draft pick 46

Chris Kangars

0

FAIL

18yr

193cm

95kg

0

0

22​

Rookie Draft pick 57

Shane Mumford

216 (21)

HIT

+HIT

21yr

198cm

104kg

57

33

B&F: 2014; AA40: 2010; Prem: 2012

2008

23​

National Draft pick 15

Mitch Brown

79 (15)

HIT

18yr

195cm

93kg

74

3

24​

National Draft pick 33

Tom Gillies

15 (13)

FAIL

18yr

192cm

95kg

1

0

2009

25​

National Draft pick 42

Nathan Vardy

77 (25)

HIT

18yr

198cm

101kg

47

0

Prem: 2018

26​

Rookie Draft pick 37

Ben Johnson

0

FAIL

22yr

195cm

95kg

0

0

27​

Rookie Draft pick 50

James Podsiadly

104 (83)

HIT

+HIT

28yr

193cm

100kg

195

23

Prem: 2011

2010

28​

Rookie Draft pick 23

Josh Walker

139 (33)

HIT

+HIT

17yr

196cm

91kg

75

1

29​

Rookie Draft pick 71

Ryan Bathie

0

FAIL

23yr

198cm

102kg

0

0

2011

30​

National Draft pick 32

Joel Hamling

91 (0)

HIT

18yr

194cm

88kg

0

2

Prem: 2016

31​

National Draft pick 78

Orren Stephenson

15 (8)

FAIL

29yr

200cm

104kg

1

0

32​

Rookie Draft pick 54

Mark Blicavs

248

HIT

+HIT

20yr

198cm

95kg

64

18

AA: 2022; B&F: 2015, 2018; AA40: 2018, 2019, 2020; Prem: 2022

2012

33​

107

Trade

Hamish McIntosh

19

FAIL

28yr

203cm

103kg

7

0

34​

150

UFA

Jared Rivers

44

FAIL

27yr

192cm

92kg

0

0

2013

35​

National Draft pick 36

Jarrad Jansen

8 (0)

FAIL

18yr

192cm

94kg

4

0

36​

National Draft pick 41

Jake Kolodjashnij

176

HIT

+HIT

18yr

193cm

88kg

3

0

Prem: 2022

37​

Rookie Draft pick 15

James Toohey

0

FAIL

19yr

198cm

95kg

0

0

2014

38​

97

Trade

Mitch Clark

9

FAIL

26yr

200cm

103kg

14

0

58

Rhys Stanley

140

23yr

200cm

96kg

65

2

Prem: 2022

39​

Trade

HIT

+HIT

40​

Rookie Draft pick 14

Tom Read

0

FAIL

18yr

200cm

92kg

0

0

41​

6

Rookie Draft pick 32

Cameron Delaney

0

FAIL

22yr

194cm

91kg

0

0

Rookie Draft pick 49

Padraig Lucey

0

22yr

203cm

98kg

0

0

42​

(Intl)

FAIL

2015

43​

117

Trade

Lachie Henderson

89

HIT

25yr

196cm

96kg

13

4

44​

65

Trade

Zac Smith

59 (50)

HIT

25yr

205cm

98kg

23

1

45​

National Draft pick 59

Ryan Gardner

53 (0)

HIT

18yr

197cm

93kg

3

0

46​

National Draft pick 69

Wylie Buzza

9

FAIL

19yr

197cm

99kg

6

0

2016

47​

50

Trade

Aaron Black

7

FAIL

25yr

192cm

88kg

5

0

48​

National Draft pick 43

Esava Ratugolea

77 (75)

HIT

+HIT

18yr

194cm

95kg

38

0

49​

National Draft pick 68

Timm House

0

FAIL

21yr

194cm

95kg

0

0

50​

National Draft pick 69

Ryan Abbott

6 (5)

FAIL

25yr

200cm

99kg

5

0

2017

51​

National Draft pick 36

Charlie Constable

16 (12)

FAIL

18yr

192cm

86kg

6

0

2018

52​

Trade

Nathan Kreuger

9 (2)

FAIL

19yr

196cm

86kg

4

0

53​

UFA

Blake Schlensog

0

FAIL

18yr

195cm

90kg

0

0

54​

National Draft pick 65

Darcy Fort

33 (8)

FAIL

25yr

205cm

99kg

16

0

2019

147

Josh Jenkins

2

30yr

198cm

106kg

0

0

55​

Trade

FAIL

56​

National Draft pick 19

Sam De Koning

45

HIT

+HIT

18yr

201cm

86kg

1

0

Prem: 2022

2020

171

Trade

Jeremy Cameron

61

27yr

194cm

91kg

161

38

AA: 2022; B&F: 2022; Prem: 2022

57​

HIT

+HIT

58​

UFA

Paul Tsapatolis

0

FAIL

18yr

202cm

99kg

0

0

59​

National Draft pick 33

Shannon Neale

5

TBC

18yr

202cm

91kg

1

0

60​

National Draft pick 47

Nick Stevens

0

FAIL

18yr

192cm

84kg

0

0

2021

101

Jonathon Ceglar

9

30yr

204cm

94kg

0

0

61​

Trade

FAIL

62​

National Draft pick 24

Toby Conway

1

TBC

18yr

205cm

97kg

0

0

63​

National Draft pick 25

Mitch Knevitt

11

TBC

18yr

193cm

81kg

2

0

2022

64​

National Draft pick 52

Phoenix Foster

0

TBC

18yr

198cm

90kg

0

0

2023

65​

UFA

Joe Furphy

0

TBC

24yr

202cm

87kg

0

0

66​

National Draft pick 11

Connor O'Sullivan

0

TBC

18yr

198cm

92kg

0

0

67​

National Draft pick 32

Mitch Edwards

0

TBC

18yr

206cm

89kg

0

0

68​

7

Rookie Draft pick 7

Emerson Jeka

0

TBC

22yr

197cm

87kg

0

0

24​

15​

 

[loki04]

I don't understand what you're actually advocating for and how it'd work. If you don't want to trade players out for the future or bereally s**t.

Are you talking about a team with middling talent genuinely tanking for a couple of years to get 2 top 5 picks? Or are you talking about choosing to stay in the middle of the table for an extended period for a bunch of later top 10 picks - without trying to improve the team in the short and medium term when it comes to recruiting - just looking solely to the longer term future with recruiting?

I don't see how either of them are particularly likely to increase the chance of becoming a team that wins a few flags in a short period, which seems to be your goal.

I'm talking about natural attrition taking you down due to ageing list natural turnover.
Every cycle will see you drop for a few years before rising up with good management.

Rather then trying to circumvent it with midling talents and trying to stay mid table and then push up with a flawed list.
Which you want to do, which was the North Melbourne of the late 00s to mid teens.

The odd trade out is fine for the right player and price not all experience, that needs to be phased out over 'X' years pending form, role replacement and age.

Also look at trade ins, on the way back up.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Possibly. Until proven though, Carlton's previous indiscretions are largely irrelevant.

I'm not familiar with the measures the AFL takes to audit clubs' player payments etc., however I've never really heard anyone in the media raise it either, whether it's in relation to Geelong or anyone else. I expect the AFL likes to keep things that way.

Seems a bit wrong, strange, dodgy, they could be possibly gifting farms/land to players outside the salary cap and it doesn't get investigated or even brought up as questionable.

 

[loki04]

Historically, we have had some of the best keys including one of the GOATS (his height for the time was that of a key).

Coventry? I think you are struggling a bit when you bring up a player who debuted over 100 years ago...1920...

 

[No SPIN]

This is essentially my argument, so you agree with me that Collingwood doesn’t have the best recruiters in the game.

What I’m saying is based on flag results inclusive of 2010 we are as good as Geel.

 

[Roverjg]

Not sure how many times I need to say this - Geel are said to have the best recruiters in the game and had a gun KPF for close to 15 years.
And yet inclusive of 2010 they have won the same number of flags as Coll.
So please let’s end this absurd debate that our recruiters are crap and had they found KPF’s we’d now have more flags.
Geel have had both for 15 - and not achieved a dynasty.

People need to stop with these simplistic arguments.

Curious as to why you commenced your spin from 2010 and not earlier say 2000. Was it to justify your argument against Geelong?. They played in 4 GFs in 5 years from 2007. So in effect they have won 4 premierships with KPFs in 15 years and played finals every single year until 2023 despite only mid range picks. I would call that a dynasty and great recruitment

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[loki04]

What I’m saying is based on flag results inclusive of 2010 we are as good as Geel.

I think Hine has a great eye for HFF, HBF, KPD Small lead up fwds, small defenders, wingers and defensive fwds.

Mids he is quality as an overall recruiter though I think he struggles with the big physical inside types (J.Cripps, T.Greene, S.P-Pepper, Oliver etc).

He has his kryptonite in KPF and indigenous small forwards with Davis or Hill skill sets. He just can't pick them.

 

[No SPIN]

Unless you have early draft picks (and lets face it the Northern and emerging clubs will always get the best of those) then the only other way to get priority players (guns) is through recruitment.

The "myth" about Geelong having the best recruiters is just that....a myth. Truth is they have a POOL of players every year from their ever burgeoning districts down here (Colac to Queenscliff) that are identified early and then fast tracked via the football factory private schools (Geelong Grammar, College and St.Joey's) straight into the NGA's and The Falcons programs where the very best are then linked to "Geelong Friendly" player managers and sponsors that see to it that these young lads are made very comfortable in their Geelong based communities. When drafting time arrives, sure some of them get picked by oppo and interstate clubs but they are always made aware that "if they ever want to come HOME"...then they'll be very well looked after. And the cream of the Falcons who don't get picked up (who maybe need another year or two to mature physically or who haven't been played in position by the Falcons hierarchy) well they get well remunerated local positions amongst GFL and GDFL teams where they can always be redrafted by the Cats as they see fit...(think Tom Stewart).

So the real crux of Geelong's "brilliant" recruiting has been:
(a) their links to their local footy comps and in particular their local private schools who can provide the Falcons with a never ending stream of top line talent

and

(b) their establishment of a series of "Geelong friendly player managers" who get the players they want when they want them. (Think Patrick, Jeremy Cameron, Ollie Henry)...they've played the go home card on many occasions.

For Collingwood (or indeed any other large Melbourne based club) to emulate this type of scheme we'd be up against 6-7 other clubs all fighting for the same talent. Our links to the Chargers are obvious but as they play and train in a city of 3+ million people, they're obviously more open to being seen and much harder to hide players in a local competition than it is here down in sleepy hollow. We (all the Melbourne clubs) also have no "go home factor" because our lads are already in the biggest footy city in the country and there's only "other" places to go.

Our only hope IS and has been for quite a while to establish a network of "Pies friendly player managers" that steer their proteges towards us instead of interstate or down Geelong road. The arrival of Graham Wright and now Ned Kelly have me hoping that finally (after more than a decade of watching Stephen Wells and his gang manipulate player movement amongst the AFL) that we'd finally start getting our share of the GUN players who want to test the market.

I'm tired of watching trade periods where we hold no sway, where the Locketts, Quinlan's, Lynch's, Daniher's and Cameron's get traded all around us and we don't ever stand a chance.

Player managers hold the keys to the kingdom now and in Wright and Kelly we should have a pretty good guide into how best to deal with them.

This is fantastic insight and greatly appreciated.
So what’s in it for these managers?
Why would a kid not hunt around for the manager with the best fit?
Unless these managers are offering something more in a deal that’s been sourced from Geel ( which I’d say is a breach of AFL rules) then they don’t have a means of landing these kids.
Because I’m tipping the personality of these managers is not enough.

 

[loki04]

Curious as to why you commenced your spin from 2010 and not earlier say 2000. Was it to justify your argument against Geelong?. They played in 4 GFs in 5 years from 2007. So in effect they have won 4 premierships with KPFs in 15 years and played finals every single year until 2023 despite only mid range picks. I would call that a dynasty and great recruitment

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

They loaded up in the best draft I think we will ever see. 2001.
They also did well out of 00 draft.

FS Scarlett, Hawkins there is 2 bookends done.

 

[No SPIN]

Curious as to why you commenced your spin from 2010 and not earlier say 2000. Was it to justify your argument against Geelong?. They played in 4 GFs in 5 years from 2007. So in effect they have won 4 premierships with KPFs in 15 years and played finals every single year until 2023 despite only mid range picks. I would call that a dynasty and great recruitment

On SM-N975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

I used that time frame because it corresponded with the emergence of a gun fwd in Hawkins. The debate after all is about KPF.

 

[brysie]

I used that time frame because it corresponded with their recruitment of a gun fwd in Hawkins. The debate after all is about KPF.

Hawkins was picked in the 2006 National Draft

 

[memoryofmchale]

Coventry? I think you are struggling a bit when you bring up a player who debuted over 100 years ago...1920...

Well he was that good.

Our history has key forwards and we do have some names like Sav Rocca, Peter McKenna, BT.

But as others have said, some time since we’ve had a true tall million dollar timber.

 

[Jen2310]

FA list.

Who's on the table? Full list of 2024 free agents revealed

The AFL has confirmed its list of players that qualify for free agency in 2024

www.afl.com.au

 

[No SPIN]

Hawkins was picked in the 2006 National Draft

Yep - you’re too fast. I edited the post.

 

[brysie]

Yep - you’re too fast. I edited the post.

Helps when working from home I guess.

To your argument however, Hawkins was a F/S selection who, in his first few years in the league, wasn't the Tom Hawkins we unfortunately came to know in and from the 2011 GF onwards.