Vic E/W Link / Metro Rail / Large projects

[Pessimistic]

Jane, ya come in here spouting cfmeu and greenie assertions with no supporting facts whatsoever, then badger people for 'links' on things eveyone accepts, and wheny you get a link, you pretend you cant see the bleedin obvious

Fact is bailleu found the rustbucket you love referring to, gave it a nice polish.

He didnt do much else, what you are seeing in 2011 is the people from his own side, who sacked him, panicking and concocting a very expensive and wasteful electoral wedge with abbotts full support.

Nothing much else was done, except re worked flashy videos and your usual liberal dishonest advertising

 

[Pessimistic]

Ps jane im not a greenie, far from it. i just believe scarce resources need to be spent wisely A few years ago both sides agreed to set up infrastructure australia etc. Sadly politics of the wedge is back with a vengeance

 

[GuruJane]

Ps jane im not a greenie, far from it. i just believe scarce resources need to be spent wisely A few years ago both sides agreed to set up infrastructure australia etc. Sadly politics of the wedge is back with a vengeance

You have no idea how those fine once-red Labor braincells of yours have been gradually greencreeped since 2003 when I first joined to the point today where you struggle to rise above incoherence and post mindless rubbish.
Now you just make things up - little credibility left Pess.

 

[Malifice]

A few senior peeps in this thread getting personal. Dont push it.

 

[Pessimistic]

Apologies

 

[Jiska]

The plan is consitent with rail authority planning which has been in place for years.

Difference is labor respect public authorities who have years of experience. Its the libs who think theyknow better typical lawyers and accountants and spin jockeys

That'd be the same public authorities who changed the route/design of the city loop 20,000 times before building it.

I really don't care for Labor/Liberal arguments on a piece of infrastructure that will/should last 100 years. It's important we get it right, rather than make people change trains to get to somewhere they can get directly now (city loop stations excluded). It's all fine and dandy to say there will be plenty of trains, but this isn't London and we don't have their population. Trains won't be arriving every two minutes.

If you've ever stood at Richmond Station after a football game, you would notice that the Frankston and Dandenong line platforms are often full now, with seperate lines. Push all those people on to one platform and then forcing a change of half a train at Caulfield is simply unworkable.

 

[Jiska]

Why do you doubt this Guru?

Under Rudd/Gillard they promised to fund replacement of land vehicles for the army, ships for the navy , planes for the airforce, Ndis startup, 5 years of gonski in education, increased health spending none of which was funded. What's an extra few billion for a metro that they didn't have ?

They could have funded it with the 20,000$ handouts being given to small businesses.

 

[Jiska]

Fact is bailleu found the rustbucket you love referring to, gave it a nice polish.

I think you're being a little generous there. There's no way Ted would have done something. It may have run through his mind lying in bed one night.

 

[Pessimistic]

That'd be the same public authorities who changed the route/design of the city loop 20,000 times before building it.

I really don't care for Labor/Liberal arguments on a piece of infrastructure that will/should last 100 years. It's important we get it right, rather than make people change trains to get to somewhere they can get directly now (city loop stations excluded). It's all fine and dandy to say there will be plenty of trains, but this isn't London and we don't have their population. Trains won't be arriving every two minutes.

If you've ever stood at Richmond Station after a football game, you would notice that the Frankston and Dandenong line platforms are often full now, with seperate lines. Push all those people on to one platform and then forcing a change of half a train at Caulfield is simply unworkable.

Would you say the loop has worked well for quite a ew years without too much remedial design work ? Your post suggests you are broadly happy with it.

Citylink needed massive change to the south melb part of the westgate freeway because of design issues

 

[Jiska]

Would you say the loop has worked well for quite a ew years without too much remedial design work ? Your post suggests you are broadly happy with it

What's your point exactly??

 

[medusala]

. i just believe scarce resources need to be spent wisely

Pess pollies will rarely if ever spend money wisely. They will always urinate it up against the wall on nonsense like Alice to Darwin, Stockmans hall of fame, priests in schools, Better Cities, Pink Batts, Desal etc

Look at hundreds of billions the last federal govt wasted. What is there to show for it? Its not like Sydney and Melbourne both have world class train systems.

 

[Pessimistic]

Lets just say I'm optimistic.
projects designed to appeal to a certain electorate are one thing, naïve to expect that to stop
projects chosen to wedge and on their ability to raise toll money, before efficiency, count me out

Id be much cooler with paying tolls to the govt, transurban's business model leaves me cold. Ironically they get the government to collect their bad debts anyway

 

[Jiska]

Pess pollies will rarely if ever spend money wisely. They will always urinate it up against the wall on nonsense like Alice to Darwin, Stockmans hall of fame, priests in schools, Better Cities, Pink Batts, Desal etc

Look at hundreds of billions the last federal govt wasted. What is there to show for it? Its not like Sydney and Melbourne both have world class train systems.

We're not discussing Federal Politics, we're discussing State Politics. It's like comparing an Apple to an Orange.

 

[Pessimistic]

What's your point exactly??

..that all the pre construction changes might have saved even more remedial money afterwards. I wouldn't know, I didn't have much exposure to the city loop process

 

[Jiska]

..that all the pre construction changes might have saved even more remedial money afterwards. I wouldn't know, I didn't have much exposure to the city loop process

42 years of design.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Loop

 

[Jiska]

East-West link was designed in the early 1970's, FWIW, albeit without a tunnel.

 

[medusala]

We're not discussing Federal Politics, we're discussing State Politics. It's like comparing an Apple to an Orange.

Hardly, state governments are even worse run. See Joan Kirner and WA Inc (not to mention Qld and NSW corruption and general stupidity in SA and Tas). Victoria was in serious trouble when Kennett came in.

 

[Pessimistic]

One comment I have is that whatever problem we have in transportability etc, other countries will have had it before, theres plenty of learnings to be had.

with automated cars and taxibots etc theres going to be huge leaps in the nearish future. But we simply cant afford to spend billions on tiny changes like MYKI. we need to get so much better

 

[Pessimistic]

Also the loss of manufacturing jobs has meant a huge concentration of jobs in the city centre, and the trend wont change anytime soon.

suburban economic centres or the twenty minute city are great concepts but no one has a realistic clue how to get there

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

That'd be the same public authorities who changed the route/design of the city loop 20,000 times before building it.

I wish the current public authorities were more open to changing their minds. I do think politicians prosper when they listen to the public service, just like listening to any other expert. But there is far too much campaigning going on from pollies, public servants, private interests and, of course, regular people (assuming Meds isn't an avatar working for a private interest). So the public service should listen to other experts just like the pollies.

I mean, trying to restrict the ring road to 80 KM/hr after all the safety initiatives we've had in the last 20-30 years?? At least that might explain why never-ending roadworks have made large sections of the ring road be 80KM/hr everytime I've driven on it. And then there was the Geelong ring-road that took a freeway and ended it in a T-intersection... Maybe that was so the pollies could pretend the plan didn't include the extra billions required for the new ramps that were eventually built, but sometimes it seems like the PS are just as keen to campaign rather than propose, listen and analyse.

42 years of design.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Loop

As you said with the east-west link, just because something is suggested as an option doesn't mean it is about to be built, and with 42 years in between you'd hope they changed the design a few times! But obviously there is a limit. And obviously there is waste. MYKI being another ghastly recent example.

Also the loss of manufacturing jobs has meant a huge concentration of jobs in the city centre, and the trend wont change anytime soon.

suburban economic centres or the twenty minute city are great concepts but no one has a realistic clue how to get there

I'm pretty sure we all have a realistic clue, it just isn't politically appealing as it involves destroying current housing/infrastructure to bring in high-density and locals always protest. I thought the first-home buyers grant should've instead been made to encourage empty-nesters to sell up (rather than the expansion of Melbourne's boundaries). Who knows what that money could've achieved in re-modelling some of the eastern suburbs so we had more suburban hubs. Box Hill has been mentioned before.

 

[Jiska]

Hardly, state governments are even worse run. See Joan Kirner and WA Inc (not to mention Qld and NSW corruption and general stupidity in SA and Tas). Victoria was in serious trouble when Kennett came in.

Note the thread title : "Daniel Andrew - E/W contracts". How WA/QLD/NSW is relevant I'll never know

I'm sure you could pull out an example from 1908 as well if you tried hard enough

 

[Jiska]

I wish the current public authorities were more open to changing their minds. I do think politicians prosper when they listen to the public service, just like listening to any other expert. But there is far too much campaigning going on from pollies, public servants, private interests and, of course, regular people (assuming Meds isn't an avatar working for a private interest). So the public service should listen to other experts just like the pollies.

I mean, trying to restrict the ring road to 80 KM/hr after all the safety initiatives we've had in the last 20-30 years?? At least that might explain why never-ending roadworks have made large sections of the ring road be 80KM/hr everytime I've driven on it. And then there was the Geelong ring-road that took a freeway and ended it in a T-intersection... Maybe that was so the pollies could pretend the plan didn't include the extra billions required for the new ramps that were eventually built, but sometimes it seems like the PS are just as keen to campaign rather than propose, listen and analyse.

As you said with the east-west link, just because something is suggested as an option doesn't mean it is about to be built, and with 42 years in between you'd hope they changed the design a few times! But obviously there is a limit. And obviously there is waste. MYKI being another ghastly recent example.

I'm pretty sure we all have a realistic clue, it just isn't politically appealing as it involves destroying current housing/infrastructure to bring in high-density and locals always protest. I thought the first-home buyers grant should've instead been made to encourage empty-nesters to sell up (rather than the expansion of Melbourne's boundaries). Who knows what that money could've achieved in re-modelling some of the eastern suburbs so we had more suburban hubs. Box Hill has been mentioned before.

Agreed with most of your post; except that the Geelong Bypass doesn't finish in a T intersection. The bypass was split in to a six stage construction. Stage 1, 2, 3, 4a, 4b and 4c. The T intersection was Stage 3. The construction of Stage 4a continued the bypass around and on to Anglesea Rd.

 

[medusala]

Note the thread title : "Daniel Andrew - E/W contracts".

Pess was talking re infrastructure in general.

BTW whatever happened to Jolimont Yard extension?

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Agreed with most of your post; except that the Geelong Bypass doesn't finish in a T intersection. The bypass was split in to a six stage construction. Stage 1, 2, 3, 4a, 4b and 4c. The T intersection was Stage 3. The construction of Stage 4a continued the bypass around and on to Anglesea Rd.

Right and wrong. You make it sounds like there was a specific plan and that plan was divided up into staged construction. Whereas what you mean is that there were different parts of a general bypass plan which were specifically planned as each individual stage came along. i.e. Stage 3 involved major debate as to where the road would go. The decision that was made used a pre-existing purchased section of Crown Land (i.e. the least politically fraught option as new land didn't need to be bought) and ended in a T-intersection near that giant Bunnings store. Alongside the T-intersection finish it also cut straight through high-value real estate since Geelong had expanded from when that Crown Land was first reserved and to 'bypass' Geelong it really should've been further out of town.

Stage 4A was approved and built shortly thereafter (Wiki is a bit confusing as it claims 4A was done in 2010, but also that 4A and 4B were opened together in 2013), but it can only be for political reasons that the 3 and 4A builds were made into separate builds when 4A was an absolute necessity for the stage 3 plan they went with. Maybe separating them allowed for their stage 3 choice to look cheaper.

 

[Jiska]

Right and wrong. You make it sounds like there was a specific plan and that plan was divided up into staged construction. Whereas what you mean is that there were different parts of a general bypass plan which were specifically planned as each individual stage came along. i.e. Stage 3 involved major debate as to where the road would go. The decision that was made used a pre-existing purchased section of Crown Land (i.e. the least politically fraught option as new land didn't need to be bought) and ended in a T-intersection near that giant Bunnings store. Alongside the T-intersection finish it also cut straight through high-value real estate since Geelong had expanded from when that Crown Land was first reserved and to 'bypass' Geelong it really should've been further out of town.

Stage 4A was approved and built shortly thereafter (Wiki is a bit confusing as it claims 4A was done in 2010, but also that 4A and 4B were opened together in 2013), but it can only be for political reasons that the 3 and 4A builds were made into separate builds when 4A was an absolute necessity for the stage 3 plan they went with. Maybe separating them allowed for their stage 3 choice to look cheaper.

There was definitely no concrete plan on the route, although I can see how my post could be interpreted as such. That being said, like a lot of other projects being discussed in this thread, planning started in the 60's or 70's IIRC, so another 40 years before construction began. Even when they went to build it they hadn't decided the route. Absurd really. Frankston bypass was the same. One day maybe the Frankston Freeway will extend past Springvale Road.

Stage 4A & 4B were opened in Feb 2013. If you look at the map, that makes sense given 4b literally only bypasses the roundabout and is minute in length.