- Apr 11, 2015
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Oops, Double post.
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Eastern FL - Division 2 2017
- Thread starter Itsmyshow
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If a club president doesn't think player payments are sustainable, they're welcome to pay less and perhaps end up in a lower division, or move to the amateurs.
I don't know why some clubs who are having trouble with player payments are trying to drag other clubs down to their level with new rules etc.
If player payments were unsustainable, why are Vermont, NP, Balwyn able to sustain it? Must be sustainable for them. Clubs like Norwood are also able to compete when they get their circumstances right.
Lower level clubs will eventually fall to a division that suits them. It's been a long time since a club folded completely, so whatever's happening must be relatively sustainable.
That word 'unsustainable' has been completely misused in this discussion. If a club spends 'unsustainably' it's their own fault and if they can't afford to stay in 2nd division, they should fall to 3rd division gracefully.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, the plan will have more than just the intended consequence of lower pay. It might lower pay for some, but will sky rocket for other local players.
If a club really doesn't want to pay players, the VAFA is Melbourne-wide.
I don't know why some clubs who are having trouble with player payments are trying to drag other clubs down to their level with new rules etc.
If player payments were unsustainable, why are Vermont, NP, Balwyn able to sustain it? Must be sustainable for them. Clubs like Norwood are also able to compete when they get their circumstances right.
Lower level clubs will eventually fall to a division that suits them. It's been a long time since a club folded completely, so whatever's happening must be relatively sustainable.
That word 'unsustainable' has been completely misused in this discussion. If a club spends 'unsustainably' it's their own fault and if they can't afford to stay in 2nd division, they should fall to 3rd division gracefully.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, the plan will have more than just the intended consequence of lower pay. It might lower pay for some, but will sky rocket for other local players.
If a club really doesn't want to pay players, the VAFA is Melbourne-wide.
- Apr 12, 2015
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If player payments were unsustainable, why are Vermont, NP, Balwyn able to sustain it? Must be sustainable for them. Clubs like Norwood are also able to compete when they get their circumstances right. Obviously it must be hard for some people to understand what sustainable means. Here you go. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sustainable Noble Park has the Sporting Facility um I mean POKIES with and estimated $250k+ to start with before practice matches yearly. Vermont have the Wantirna Hill club POKIES, same input of dollars yearly as of NP. Balwyn has a shitload of sugar daddies and a Brothel who love throwing money away on Local football with an estimated $600k outlay this year. Norwoods President, self made millionaire who has built the club and has done well. If he leaves that income stream is lost. It's all about having an income stream which by that means a club can stay competitive. Bar Sales & Meat Trays don't pull in the dollars like they used too. If your club through hard work has a budget of $150k and you wish to compete with the likes of Balwyn all I can say is good Luck with that. s**t we may get someone on here telling me you have to work harder.
All in all the point system will make things interesting come 2016.
All in all the point system will make things interesting come 2016.
Well, Croydon, Doncaster, Donny East can all sustain what they're paying presumably. Do they have pokies too?
It's all sustainable. When it's not, the competition will collapse.
If it's not sustainable for a club, they can drop to the level that they can sustain.
The points system will make it harder for clubs with less money, because they'll be competing harder for the local players and maybe a high points player will trickle down to them and take all their cash.
It's all sustainable. When it's not, the competition will collapse.
If it's not sustainable for a club, they can drop to the level that they can sustain.
The points system will make it harder for clubs with less money, because they'll be competing harder for the local players and maybe a high points player will trickle down to them and take all their cash.
Stevie Gee
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- Apr 15, 2015
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Think you might have written this article SGee
Very true too - local footy is an anachronism really. Basically there should be a competition created 1 level below VFL footy (if you like) and clubs apply to be part of. One of the pillars would be financial status and a capacity to spend say $200K on players and personnel. You may decide to spend more but this is the minimum spend you should budget for. Other pillars might include junior set up, admin set up, capacity to generate funds (so the club isn't reliant on 1 big benefactor), facilities and probably a couple of others. FV decide who gets in. It would be a Super Comp as SG used to like calling it. Yes it will take players from local comps - so be it - already happens now, but it will also take a fair bit of pressure off a number of sides in good comps in the EFL, EDFL, NFL and others. If you want top coin then there is a comp for you...
Actually surf around quite a few sports blogs and often find pretty good reads. SBNation is another good one, though not really on Australian things.
Basically I agree with it, just expressed better than I can! The VFA was killed and has never been replaced. Think there's a level of footy missing there and we'd benefit by getting it back. There's "local" clubs around who are better resourced than standalone VFL clubs. Put them where they belong and make community footy genuine community footy - not a commercial pursuit.
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HedgeFund
Premiership Player
When local football competitions become as lop sided as the WRFL, EDFL and EDFL have become in recent years, you have to question the "open market" system they operate under.
Here is a short list of negatives I have observed from competitions having a handful of clubs capable of generating big turnovers and paying players stupid sums of money to play local footy:
1. Lack of clubs desire/ability to compete in higher divisions if they win flags and get promoted. Parkside in the WRFL won Div 2, and ended up in Div 3 this year. For ages in the EFL the Div 2 premier would get flogged in Div 1 the next year.
2. Players become mercenaries and jump ship from clubs who lose big sponsors/revenue streams (eg. Donvale, Scoresby, East Burwood). They then collapse - not "find their own level" - and the guts are ripped out of the club when players piss off en masse to another club where they can get paid more.
3. Club success is tied more to a club's ability to generate $$$ (eg. Deer Park, Marby Park, Aberfeldie) such that the club with the biggest player budget is favoured to win the flag. This is at the expense of club culture, unity, loyalty and many other values we should be instilling in young men today.
4. Coaching becomes more a matter of managing egos and pandering to players, rather than teaching, developing and implementing strategies.
5. Clubs lose out on culture and having a large group of players graduating from juniors to seniors and playing 50, 100 maybe 150 games together. So many EDFL clubs see their juniors leave as they see 10-15 ex AFL/VFL blow ins guaranteed senior games whilst the local kids have to kick dew, or go to a lower paying club to get a senior game.
I've got a few more to throw in if you want, but money in local footy (and particularly bush footy) is a cancer and if we can't enforce a salary cap, then the points system is the next best thing.
Except of course that every club has a choice as to whether they want to play the game of paying out to these footy nomads. Generally coaches hed will push for it bc they appear to be a better coach if the side is successful when we all know this May not be the case at all. Everyone has choices but the clubs u have named are the ones the SG was suggesting would be better off in a super comp of some sort.
- Apr 12, 2015
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Well East Burwood has made the hard call. They advised players that they cannot sustain the current player payments and advised them them that there will be a 50% pay cut. They have done this before the transfer cut off and any player wishing to leave will be cleared straight away. Gone are the Jacksons, Hughes, McKenzie so far. Watch the transfers I guess.
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It's obvious you don't know what goes on behind the scenes as your next lot of examples have let you with egg on your face once again. Croydon tried and spent $$$$ to keep up with the likes of NP, Balwyn and Vermont and the nearly folded. They have done really well but once again are spending money they saved and are building up again and that is what Croydon do. Doncaster has one major person inputting huge dollars, when he gets bored pumping the dollars what then? Don't know enough about Doncaster East but they aint paying peanuts, they have a lot of sponsors but my calculations is the sponsors would not be bringing in that much money to cover their player payments. No club without an income stream can sustain current player payments.
Levelnuts
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- Apr 16, 2015
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Yes we are waiting, the selfish prick has been at the club since playing in the 1960's and refuses to get bored, the other 2 major inputters who you haven't mentioned are not nearly as loyal, they only played in the 1970's
- Apr 12, 2015
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Hope he stays around as do the others.
Word is that 8 players have walked. Not good for a club that was struggling. Why would a club influence players to play with the club with signed contracts for agreed match fees which they now cannot honour. This could be a water shed moment for a lot of clubs but as a test case it could get very grubby if some players want to enforce the terms of their contracts. Reading the threads it is clear a lot of clubs are unable to compete on a financial level and EB is a case in point but the players are not where the problem lies, they have an expectation to paid for their skills and not unreasonably want to get paid the highest they can achieve. The clubs want to be successful and to attract the best quality players use cash as the lure. So the players and the clubs are just the pawns. The problem sits squarely with the leagues. It would take courage to enforce a points system as a salary cap could not be policed. It's a fact that plenty of clubs both metro and country have silver ware in their club rooms solely due to the bank balance
- Apr 12, 2015
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Good points Vanderhum, if they don't tell them and they play on and at the end of the season (which plenty of clubs have done) and they don't get paid, what then? I will take it the club has been up front rather the bullshit to them and on performance they are not worth what they have been paid. I will pull you up on the a club that was struggling, they have been struggling since 2004.
I hear what you are saying and your point is well made regarding the club being up front with the players but the fall out for EB is going to seriously challenge their viability in 2016. No juniors and word is the seconds might not be able to field a team on Saturday which suggests their participation in EFL is on the edge of the cliff. One point that should not be lost in this crisis is to recognise the players who have, in the full knowledge of the finances, decided to stick around. The guys that run out on Saturday for The Rams should be congratulated
Rooster 24
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- Jul 31, 2009
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Agree. Great effort from these blokes but I think you will find there are a few are still considering their options and you can expect some more player movements before 30 June.
I started this thread only as I had some knowledge of a few blokes from my club who left to play at EB in 2014 for what I considered to be overly generous match payments based on their modest football resumes. I also know they were active in pursuing a couple of better-credentialed players from my club in the pre-season. On that basis I found the comments of the president a bit strange however I now appreciate he was not in the role last season and has obviously inherited this issue. In fact kudos to him for getting involved knowing the predicament the club was in. I also had no idea of the depth of the problem and genuinely hope they can get through this year and re-build.
Terrible for local football really and you hope other clubs take note. On this same weekend a club pulled out of SFL Div 3 mid season in both seniors and reserves and while the club backgrounds and circumstances are different it is sad to see the demise of any footy club.
Hedge Fund is spot on with his observations of what has been occurring in some other leagues. Some of the stuff going on in the WRFL at the moment is extraordinary.
- Apr 12, 2015
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I head to Ram Stadium to simply support the players. I never got to know the new players that have left so no they are no loss to me. The Juniors have the right people in charge this year. Last years President was more worried about his sons getting a game and I am grateful he pissed off with his sons. Under 17's will fill in the magoos which was a hard task to get that too happen last year. The Rams need an U19's, they had 25 players say they will play last year, come training 4 turned up. It's not through lack of trying.
Stevie Gee
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- Apr 15, 2015
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Signing players for $$ and then not honouring it is another thing altogether. What has changed since the offseason that they now don't have the money?
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Yep, I am gunna drive 160ks to support The Rams and I know they will face a challenge but these loyal lads need vocal support. I understand why some players left but the bigger story is about the players who stayed.
- Apr 12, 2015
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My thoughts are it's pretty basic. No wins + no attendance = no income being generated.
Richard Lounder
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- Apr 14, 2015
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Paid competitive price ??? Thats makes me laugh. From what I'm hearing is that your still paying those so called competitive prices.
Living in the past?? Paying competitive prices is not the answer anymore cliff.
Richard Lounder
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Kinda disagree Stevie.
Get rid of Vermont , Noble Park , Balwyn to this next level comp?? Then what happens Norwood , Montrose and Doncaster (when they come up) continue to dominate against the lesser financed clubs???
Leave it as it is. At least in our first division there are 4 clubs that are pretty much in a league of their own. Montrose aren't far behind. Thats why relegation helps in a way. If a club can't compete they go down and rebuild if they play it smart. I personally like my club trying to survive in first division ,sometimes match it with the best and then gradually improve every year till we win the granny!!. I must be dreaming again
- Nov 25, 2003
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It is amazing just how many people know so little about our club & the belief that we run on the funding of one benefactor.
Try & get a ticket to the Business Lunch that sells out months beforehand every year for $150.00 a pop.
How many coterie members are there that pay a minimum $200.00 a season? - many pay $500.00.
Reverse raffle - noticed at Mooroolbark they has there numbers set up last week. Doncaster sell just as many, at more than double the price.
These are just a few examples of how there is further separation to the 'revenue' streams at some clubs. Look at the top end 1st Division clubs & you will see similar stories. Anyone ever attended the Balwyn Business Lunch? or their Pre-season launch encompassing the player auction? Easy to blame benefactors but perhaps there is some things that clubs could learn from some of the high end clubs.
Perhaps good sponsors contribute to the success of clubs & make these things easier run & sell, but it could also be that these clubs are more professional in many of the numerous areas that are required and this snowballs into success on & off the field.
Genuine question - Is having senior finals each year not the money spin that it once was? You look at the clubs that get them & they are none of them are exactly flying.
- Nov 25, 2003
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Agreed VH a few of these guys you are discussing have had opportunities to leave over the last few years but have stuck fat. You can only admire them for such loyalty.
Having strong connections with Donvale & knowing their story, there must be grave fears for the future of the Rams. Donvale's 19s won the flag the year before they merged, the Rams don't have them. Retention will be hugely important, as recruiting will be an incredibly difficult task.
While it is a brave decision to act as they have, you do wonder whether the signing players and the amounts promised had any realism to them. As I have mentioned previously I was stunned when one particular player signed with the Rams in pre-season. One because I didn't think they had those sort of $$, and secondly that this player was heading to a club that had won a single game in the proceeding season.
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Great points and I will add that people follow winners, no one follows losers and this can be spread across the realm of sport. East Burwood has all the same type of functions and they struggle to get numbers. EB have a Sportsmans nights coming up $100 a head all inclusive with Mark Thompson, Barry Michael and Nick Maxwell yet is struggling to get numbers. The same s**t has been happening for many years and I will say again it's not through lack of trying from the small band of hardcore East Burwood people.
