"Handing the keys to the AFL" - Carlton's situation

[Hawkk]

yeah those tassie members and extra large family pet memberships & band wagon fans really boost the hawks membership.

Not enough to make up the 15000+ gap to Essendon (digital memberships 'n all) though hey?

 

[Roylion]

and what was the sample for that? unless it was an open pool of fitzroy supporters, odds are someone pissed off about the move who associates with those pissed off with the move, and is networked with those fighting the move will get data skewing their way

Adam Muyt when writing his book on Fitzroy conducted hundreds of interviews with Fitzroy players, officials and supporters. His figures are based on those interviews.

The Fitzroy Football Club conducted a survey back in 1998.

and even if the 40% was right, its only one generation

The figure isn't likely to improve with time though is it.

When you stated that "Most either followed the lions or another vic team. a minority walked away from AFL" what actual figures has that been based on?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Adam Muyt when writing his book on Fitzroy conducted hundreds of interviews with Fitzroy players, officials and supporters. His figures are based on those interviews.

The Fitzroy Football Club conducted a survey back in 1998.



The figure isn't likely to improve with time though is it.

When you stated that "Most either followed the lions or another vic team. a minority walked away from AFL" what actual figures has that been based on?

It's based upon logic

If all people did was follow their team, there would be no neutral attendances at games, and no neutral viewers on the box

There are a few who only watch their team, but most people actually are fans of the game

If their team folds, years of watching pies vs blues on a Friday night doesn't evaporate overnight


Also we are talking a very small number of supporters. Reality is if Fitzroy had a large number, they would still be hear today. It's why north is always under the gun, even during the glory of the Carey years, they only ever had a small number of supporters.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

you have your opinion

I'll have mine

How many members did you have in 2004/05?

 

[Roylion]

It's based upon logic

So in actual fact you have nothing to base your "logic" on?

If all people did was follow their team, there would be no neutral attendances at games, and no neutral viewers on the box

There are a few who only watch their team, but most people actually are fans of the game

If their team folds, years of watching pies vs blues on a Friday night doesn't evaporate overnight

It does if you have a grievance with the AFL. Anecdotally, I know quite a number people who have never attended an AFL game since Fitzroy left the competition. A few have vowed never to return. They either follow other codes or local football. To them the AFL now has little or no interest for them. Some are also determined the AFL will never see another dollar from them.

Also we are talking a very small number of supporters. Reality is if Fitzroy had a large number, they would still be hear today. It's why north is always under the gun, even during the glory of the Carey years, they only ever had a small number of supporters.

Regardless of the size of the supporter base, according to the best figures we have, about 40% of Fitzroy supporters have walked away from the game.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So in actual fact you have nothing to base your "logic" on?



It does if you have a grievance with the AFL. Anecdotally, I know quite a number people who have never attended an AFL game since Fitzroy left the competition. A few have vowed never to return. They either follow other codes or local football. To them the AFL now has little or no interest for them. Some are also determined the AFL will never see another dollar from them.



Regardless of the size of the supporter base, according to the best figures we have, about 40% of Fitzroy supporters have walked away from the game.

Want a fact?

Victorian attendances ROSE the year Fitzroy left. Surely with so many home games here disappearing, and 40% of fans supposedly walking away from the game, a big hit should have occurred, rather than an increase?

 

[Roylion]

Want a fact?

Victorian attendances ROSE the year Fitzroy left. Surely with so many home games here disappearing, and 40% of fans supposedly walking away from the game, a big hit should have occurred, rather than an increase?

Really?

According to AFL tables, 1996 Victorian attendances were 4,053,822. In 1997 Victorian attendances were 3,856,992, which equates to a fall of 196,830.

This is despite Hawthorn's average attendance for their home games rising from 23,624 in 1996 to 32,520 in 1997.

I also said "Fitzroy fans", not "fans" in general.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Really?

According to AFL tables, 1996 Victorian attendances were 4,053,822. In 1997 Victorian attendances were 3,856,992, which equates to a fall of 196,830.

This is despite Hawthorn's average attendance for their home games rising from 23,624 in 1996 to 32,520 in 1997.

I also said "Fitzroy fans", not "fans" in general.

I used the same tables, looking at home games only during H&R

Attendances rose 30k off memory

 

[Roylion]

I used the same tables, looking at home games only during H&R

Attendances rose 30k off memory

I've just looked at them. Victorian venues attendances for both 1996 and 1997. Figures are above.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I've just looked at them. Victorian venues attendances for both 1996 and 1997. Figures are above.

My figures (looking at both by club and by ground) were around 3.7-3.8 million from the tables i used

I'm commuting right now, I'll link the details later tonight

 

[Roylion]

My figures (looking at both by club and by ground) were around 3.7-3.8 million from the tables i used

I'm commuting right now, I'll link the details later tonight

If, as you claim, Victorian attendances rose from 1996 to 1997, then the attendances figures for the Victorian venues used in both 1996 and 1997 should be used.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If, as you claim, Victorian attendances rose from 1996 to 1997, then the attendances figures for the Victorian venues used in both 1996 and 1997 should be used.

I know, which is why I used both figures

 

[Father Jack]

Either way, I struggle to see how the league would be better off for having Fitzroy still in it. As it is Victoria is still over represented.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If, as you claim, Victorian attendances rose from 1996 to 1997, then the attendances figures for the Victorian venues used in both 1996 and 1997 should be used.

here you go, and this is from AFL tables site you used (sorry about the wall of text, never have figured out how to paste tables on this site):

Team 1996______ 1997______ CHANGE

Carlton 394,802______ 369,972______ -24,830
Collingwood 491,953______ 535,789______ 43,836
Essendon 544,789______ 581,330______ 36,541
Fitzroy 104,300______ ______ -104,300
Footscray 198,800______ 212,681______ 13,881
Geelong 276,775______ 311,567______ 34,792
Hawthorn 259,868______ 356,179______ 96,311
Melbourne 333,465______ 304,853______ -28,612
North Melbourne 380,899______ 357,725______ -23,174
Richmond 424,859______ 379,670______ -45,189
St Kilda 298,512______ 387,553______ 89,041

Totals 3,709,022______ 3,797,319______ 88,297


Venue 1996______ 1997______ CHANGE

Kardinia Park 226,701______ 191,417______ -35,284
M.C.G. 2,351,808______ 2,304,865______ -46,943
Princes Park 265,888______ 457,182______ 191,294
Victoria Park 94,322______ 73,419______ -20,903
Waverley Park 613,079______ 743,732______ 130,653
Western Oval 157,224______ 26,704______ -130,520

Totals 3,709,022______ 3,797,319______ 88,297

 

[Papa G]

Adam Muyt when writing his book on Fitzroy conducted hundreds of interviews with Fitzroy players, officials and supporters. His figures are based on those interviews.

The Fitzroy Football Club conducted a survey back in 1998.



The figure isn't likely to improve with time though is it.

When you stated that "Most either followed the lions or another vic team. a minority walked away from AFL" what actual figures has that been based on?

Is a book written by a diehard Fitzroy supporter going to be the best source of non subjective data?

 

[Roylion]

Is a book written by a diehard Fitzroy supporter going to be the best source of non subjective data?

As I said, the conclusions were made after hundreds of interviews with Fitzroy supporters, players and officials, conducted after Fitzroy exited the competition. Also the results of a survey conducted by the Fitzroy Football Club in 1998, two years after they exited the competition.

Do you have any other better data that suggests a different outcome?

 

[Chief]

The article is titled "AFL Rich List: Your club's finances rated," and it ranks Carlton 5th! Therefore: it rates Carlton's finances 5th.

The fact that it chose to use gross revenue as the ranking metric is indeed the problem, since that's a very crude way of rating finances (or wealth).

I just find it funny that these analyses by Carlton supporters so often use some bizarre metric that just by coincidence make Carlton look better than they are. Apparently they are one of the financially strongest, best supported, most successful clubs in the league, even as they go out of business.

No, it's just that I gave it that title because it was better for clicks.

 

[western royboy]

I used to use a 3rd / 3rd / 3rd split. Regardless of what the actually are (we are never going to know)

 

[Final Siren]

No, it's just that I gave it that title because it was better for clicks.

That doesn't sound like you...

 

[Final Siren]

never have figured out how to paste tables on this site

You put | between each cell and \ at the end of each row. Then the whole thing is inside [ table ] tags.

And avoid any newlines or things get crazy.

 

[telsor]

Either way, I struggle to see how the league would be better off for having Fitzroy still in it. As it is Victoria is still over represented.

I prefer to look at it as other (heartland) states are under represented.

 

[Roylion]

here you go, and this is from AFL tables site you used (sorry about the wall of text, never have figured out how to paste tables on this site):

Team 1996______ 1997______ CHANGE

Carlton 394,802______ 369,972______ -24,830
Collingwood 491,953______ 535,789______ 43,836
Essendon 544,789______ 581,330______ 36,541
Fitzroy 104,300______ ______ -104,300
Footscray 198,800______ 212,681______ 13,881
Geelong 276,775______ 311,567______ 34,792
Hawthorn 259,868______ 356,179______ 96,311
Melbourne 333,465______ 304,853______ -28,612
North Melbourne 380,899______ 357,725______ -23,174
Richmond 424,859______ 379,670______ -45,189
St Kilda 298,512______ 387,553______ 89,041

Totals 3,709,022______ 3,797,319______ 88,297


Venue 1996______ 1997______ CHANGE

Kardinia Park 226,701______ 191,417______ -35,284
M.C.G. 2,351,808______ 2,304,865______ -46,943
Princes Park 265,888______ 457,182______ 191,294
Victoria Park 94,322______ 73,419______ -20,903
Waverley Park 613,079______ 743,732______ 130,653
Western Oval 157,224______ 26,704______ -130,520

Totals 3,709,022______ 3,797,319______ 88,297

Ok. So Collingwood, Essendon, Footscray, Geelong, Hawthorn and St Kilda all had attendance rises. Princes Park had an attendance rise from 17 games to 22 games being held at the venue while Waverley Park (Hawthorn heartland) had an attendance rise despite going from 24 games in 1996 to 22 games in 1997.

So what you're suggesting by these figures is that 40% of Fitzroy supporters didn't walk away from the game based on the fact that the overall AFL attendance rose by 88,297. Would that be correct? This is despite the fact that Hawthorn alone had a surge in their membership (12,448 in 1996 and 27,005 members in 1997) and attendance at games, after their near miss with a merger with Melbourne in 1996.

 

[Father Jack]

I prefer to look at it as other (heartland) states are under represented.

But that suggests we need to add more teams, and I'm not sure that's a good idea

 

[Chief]

That doesn't sound like you...

Nor anyone looking for clicks on Facebook ... http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...s-results-of-smartest-fan-base.1117023/unread

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Ok. So Collingwood, Essendon, Footscray, Geelong, Hawthorn and St Kilda all had attendance rises. Princes Park had an attendance rise from 17 games to 22 games being held at the venue while Waverley Park (Hawthorn heartland) had an attendance rise despite going from 24 games in 1996 to 22 games in 1997.

So what you're suggesting by these figures is that 40% of Fitzroy supporters didn't walk away from the game based on the fact that the overall AFL attendance rose by 88,297. Would that be correct? This is despite the fact that Hawthorn alone had a surge in their membership (12,448 in 1996 and 27,005 members in 1997) and attendance at games, after their near miss with a merger with Melbourne in 1996.

I'm suggesting your notion that 40% of Fitzroy fans leaving the game should have reduced attendances, esp as these games were not replaced

Their fans went to other teams, that's all