HECS/HELP debts incurred before 2014 to suffer interest after 2020 - fair?

[Hank Scorpion]

From an e-mail sent out to students at my uni:

Secondly, we understood that the Commonwealth had decided to charge students interest on their HELP loans at the (capped) bond rate from 2016. What is now clear is that interest charges would accrue from the day a student starts at university. This would create a debt that may grow substantially even before a student graduates.

In the UK when somewhat similar changes were made, interest on loans was not triggered until a student was in the workforce and had some capacity to repay. The Australian Federal Government’s proposal seems unduly harsh by comparison.

• Deregulation of fees, heavy-demand courses such as medicine, dentistry, law to skyrocket in cost.
• G8 university fees to climb
• Forced to pay back later
  
• Increased interest on all fees
• Interest accrued whilst studying.

So studying Medicine at a G8 university, planning to undertake post-graduate work got a whole lot more expensive.


Didn't go to a protest, wishing I did in hindsight, not too sure how big the Adelaide protest was.

 

[Power Raid]

From an e-mail sent out to students at my uni:

• Deregulation of fees, heavy-demand courses such as medicine, dentistry, law to skyrocket in cost.
• G8 university fees to climb
• Forced to pay back later
  
• Increased interest on all fees
• Interest accrued whilst studying.

So studying Medicine at a G8 university, planning to undertake post-graduate work got a whole lot more expensive.


Didn't go to a protest, wishing I did in hindsight, not too sure how big the Adelaide protest was.

But enough of being civil, i want to do my part: F*** you Abbott, f*** you Pyne, f*** you Hockey.

why protest? why not do something positive like offering no gap GP medical services or something else positive.

any turnip can turn up and protest.

is it possible that high demand courses, through deregulation will actually result in increased student numbers? if not why? then once you have identified the bottle neck.....fix it.

 

[camsmith]

Is someone able to clarify something. Abbott has said these changes will start on 2016. As such anyone starting Uni in the next 1 and a half years won't be effected?

I have heard that HECS interest will kick in even if half way through a degree etc.. Have looked into it but I am getting mixed messages.

 

[RUNVS]

Is someone able to clarify something. Abbott has said these changes will start on 2016. As such anyone starting Uni in the next 1 and a half years won't be effected?

I have heard that HECS interest will kick in even if half way through a degree etc.. Have looked into it but I am getting mixed messages.

They will be as it is a minimum 3 year degree so at least half their degree will be with the new pricing structure. I will have all of my bachelors done by then but I might have 6 months of my masters on the new pricing structure.

 

[camsmith]

They will be as it is a minimum 3 year degree so at least half their degree will be with the new pricing structure. I will have all of my bachelors done by then but I might have 6 months of my masters on the new pricing structure.

Ok. Listening to Abbott on 3AW this morning he made it seem that wasn't the case.

Cheers.

 

[Belnakor]

t I might have 6 months of my masters on the new pricing structure.

your masters would be on a different system anyway would it not.

 

[RUNVS]

Ok. Listening to Abbott on 3AW this morning he made it seem that wasn't the case.

Cheers.

I think that is it. Right now it is around $2000 per unit and you can do 4 units a semester and 8 units a year (9 if you do a summer unit). Every time you do a new unit it is added to how much you owe so a student doesn't start out their degree owing $48,000 but every time they do a new unit they add $2000. Once the new pricing comes in they will probably be paying over $4000 per unit.

 

[tandino]

your masters would be on a different system anyway would it not.

As far as I know there are no CSP's for Postgrad students save for those courses deemed in the national interest.

 

[GOAUS!]

Is someone able to clarify something. Abbott has said these changes will start on 2016. As such anyone starting Uni in the next 1 and a half years won't be effected?

I have heard that HECS interest will kick in even if half way through a degree etc.. Have looked into it but I am getting mixed messages.

See this link here

 

[QuietB]

Here is a thought on education fees. If you have a kid, send them to a good primary school - say $1,000 a year, private secondary school - say $25k per year and then university - say $50k. That works out to be close enough to $200 per week for every week of your kids life until they are 22 years old

 

[Rustin Cohle]

Here is a thought on education fees. If you have a kid, send them to a good primary school - say $1,000 a year, private secondary school - say $25k per year and then university - say $50k. That works out to be close enough to $200 per week for every week of your kids life until they are 22 years old

Parents should have no trouble putting aside $200 a week from the child's birth to account for that. Anyone who can't is probably spending it on drugs/alcohol anyway.

 

[romeoh]

Anyway I went along to the Brisbane protest.

How depressing. A pitiful turnout and those who were there seemed to have little collective (much less individual) understanding of what is really going on.

The march through the CBD streets was led by a turnip I recognised as a Socialist Alternative leader. Terrific. Rampant socialism in this country is a large part of our problem and the protests are being led by a mob who want to formalise and exacerbate the socialism.

We eventually made it back to Queens Park and then... nothing. Everybody just went their separate ways.

A couple of young lemmings questioned me about my placard (which pointed out that ALP/Greens also cut billions from unis) but that was about the extent of the discussion which took place afterwards.

This country is in a lot of trouble.

Well you may be right but how did you make this assessment? Did you discuss it with the 5 who turned up or something?
My experience has been that people get pretty informed, pretty quickly when dollars and themselves are involved.

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

Parents should have no trouble putting aside $200 a week from the child's birth to account for that. Anyone who can't is probably spending it on drugs/alcohol anyway on a limited income

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

The march through the CBD streets was led by a turnip I recognised as a Socialist Alternative leader. Terrific. Rampant socialism in this country is a large part of our problem and the protests are being led by a mob who want to formalise and exacerbate the socialism.

any turnip can turn up and protest.

 

[romeoh]

Anyway I went along to the Brisbane protest.

How depressing. A pitiful turnout and those who were there seemed to have little collective (much less individual) understanding of what is really going on.

The march through the CBD streets was led by a turnip I recognised as a Socialist Alternative leader. Terrific. Rampant socialism in this country is a large part of our problem and the protests are being led by a mob who want to formalise and exacerbate the socialism.

We eventually made it back to Queens Park and then... nothing. Everybody just went their separate ways.

A couple of young lemmings questioned me about my placard (which pointed out that ALP/Greens also cut billions from unis) but that was about the extent of the discussion which took place afterwards.

This country is in a lot of trouble.

And 'rampant socialism' is a large part of our problem'-you cannot be cereal? They are barely relevant for most of the public I suspect, and surely have little real input into most political debate?

 

[QuietB]

Parents should have no trouble putting aside $200 a week from the child's birth to account for that. Anyone who can't is probably spending it on drugs/alcohol anyway.

lol

 

[DivideandMultiply]

What do you mean by education equity? How do we get education equity when some unis are clearly better than others when they have the same funding? How is it equity now when it costs the same to go to UWA and ECU? Why should a degree cost the same at every uni? Why shouldn't I pay more to go to UWA if it results in better teaching outcomes through smaller class sizes and more teachers from overseas??

This is a poorly made point, the ultimate aim of higher education is not to make stacks of cash. We have, though not perfectly a largely merits based system.

What differentiates the unis is not how much they can charge, but the quality of school leavers, graduates and researchers they can attract.

What fee deregulation does, is further swing the pendulum in the direction of service to financial outcomes as a qualifier, not merit, meaning the bottom line becomes the primary aim for the university and financial standing becomes the distinguishing differentiator between students, not merit.

 

[Power Raid]

This is a poorly made point, the ultimate aim of higher education is not to make stacks of cash. We have, though not perfectly a largely merits based system.

What differentiates the unis is not how much they can charge, but the quality of school leavers, graduates and researchers they can attract.

What fee deregulation does, is further swing the pendulum in the direction of service to financial outcomes as a qualifier, not merit, meaning the bottom line becomes the primary aim for the university and financial standing becomes the distinguishing differentiator between students, not merit.

what is the point of improving a university or the courses they offer if it can't fund the improvements or generate a return?

Sounds like a race to the lowest common denominator. Do we really want to drag our best universities down? Is Edith Cowan the same as UWA, is the university of SA the same and Adelaide uni?

Why kill an industry because some students don't value their education enough to pay for it?

What is that crap about merit vs financial standing? HECS means the cost is deferred so there is no financial standing issue.

 

[greennick]

This is a poorly made point, the ultimate aim of higher education is not to make stacks of cash. We have, though not perfectly a largely merits based system.

What differentiates the unis is not how much they can charge, but the quality of school leavers, graduates and researchers they can attract.

What fee deregulation does, is further swing the pendulum in the direction of service to financial outcomes as a qualifier, not merit, meaning the bottom line becomes the primary aim for the university and financial standing becomes the distinguishing differentiator between students, not merit.

Whoever said the aim was to make stacks of cash?? The money is invested in the course you are intending. It is the student investing in their own education, should they wish to. Otherwise, they can go elsewhere.

It is hardly the bottom line that becomes the focus. It will be no more than it is now. As not for profit entities, there is no profit motive. The focus will be being able to attract enough students at an attractive price, so they can then re-invest that money in quality teachers to provide value to those students. With the old system, the only way a uni can get additional funding is to drop the standards of the students it lets in, so they can get additional funding. However, if they wish to invest this money in better lecturers, they do this through increasing class sizes, reducing contact hours and cutting back on services. It is a shitty model that encourages unis to give you as crap education as they can, so they can spend their limited dollars on good quality lecturers, researchers and professors to write research papers and improve their international standing.

With the new model, if a uni is seen as not delivering, then students will go to a different uni that will. It is supply and demand, without an artificial setting of the price.

 

[greennick]

They will be as it is a minimum 3 year degree so at least half their degree will be with the new pricing structure. I will have all of my bachelors done by then but I might have 6 months of my masters on the new pricing structure.

Masters doesn't even matter, does it? Masters is already deregulated.

 

[greennick]

Ok, so Joseph and Mary both complete year 12 in a country town. They want to become Doctors, or Veterinarians. There parent's have little funds, because they live in a forgotten town.

Now, they have to try to go to a uni, and live as close as they can, on $200 a week.
On the bright side, if they find it too hard trying to study medicine, work, and live on youth allowance. They can always give up, and spend the next ten years paying off their debt to woolworths.

Heaps of scholarships are available for country people to study med and vet. In the new system, they expect even more with 1/5 dollars raised by universities to go to a national scholarship fund, primarily directed to low SES students on a merit basis.

 

[greennick]

How many scholarships are available Australia wide? And what is the average scholarship payment? Enough for someone to live in Melbourne on $200 a week?

I assume it will be like scholarships now, though no details are out yet, given this is about 1.5 years away. Some will include a cash stipend. Some will not and be just for fees. Some won't be for fees at all, but will just be for the stipend.

I had a mate at uni doing med whose country scholarship included accommodation at the uni, which included food. His centrelink then went to whatever he wanted (mainly beer). I had a scholarship which just paid me cash, equal to about half my accommodation costs, so not as generous, but mine was there for different reasons. A mate had one who paid his HECS, but nothing else. They're all different to target people in different circumstances

Anyway, how does the ability or inability to survive on $200 a day in any way relate to the changes to HECS in the budget? Youth allowance hasn't been touched in this regard.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Whoever said the aim was to make stacks of cash?? The money is invested in the course you are intending. It is the student investing in their own education, should they wish to. Otherwise, they can go elsewhere.

This is complete bollocks, you have no idea how the money will be invested. Secondly, how long will they remain not for profit entities, thirdly, senior admin, as with now, often have payscales adjusted to match university prestige and revenue. I suggest the profit motive may become very relevant to the people in charge as it means greater pay.

Again, money not grades will be the gatekeeper for the quality of education you receive, this will move us away from a merits based system, to a who is richest system. If/when changes are made to control of allocation over places, say volume of places to full fee paying, to international students so and so forth, inclusive of fee deregulation this will create a truly unequal system.

It isn't an argument BTW, this is how it works in the US.

The difference there is that a) they have extensive scholarship programs which we don't, ensuring quality pupils still make up a significant proportion of Ivy League students, b) they have far greater international intakes and c) they have lower fee public domestic universities of comparable quality that don't have an Australian corollary.

TBH, our universities are just not good enough, nor will they be, to attract the prices they will be demanding. For families that have the money to pay fees up front, it will likely be worth considering international options.

Regardless, this is a terrible result for Australian students and really strikes at the heart of education equity.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

what is the point of improving a university or the courses they offer if it can't fund the improvements or generate a return?

Sounds like a race to the lowest common denominator. Do we really want to drag our best universities down? Is Edith Cowan the same as UWA, is the university of SA the same and Adelaide uni?

Why kill an industry because some students don't value their education enough to pay for it?

What is that crap about merit vs financial standing? HECS means the cost is deferred so there is no financial standing issue.

Students still have to assess future cost, fewer students from low income backgrounds will be willing to shoulder 65k+ debt at interest.

HECS doesn't make the debt vanish and after the first rounds of graduates have spent time in the workforce under the new system, problems will become well publicised and the school leaver market will adjust. Likewise, it will have a stronger influence on the mature age demographic and those seeking to re-train.

The debt burden will be a far bigger turnoff for people who may already have mortages, or have dealt with the consequences of debt.

It will also drive more graduates offshore, likewise more school leavers.

It's a terrible idea and the fact greenwick supports it confirms that to me.

 

[greennick]

This is complete bollocks, you have no idea how the money will be invested. Secondly, how long will they remain not for profit entities, thirdly, senior admin, as with now, often have payscales adjusted to match university prestige and revenue. I suggest the profit motive may become very relevant to the people in charge as it means greater pay.

Again, money not grades will be the gatekeeper for the quality of education you receive, this will move us away from a merits based system, to a who is richest system. If/when changes are made to control of allocation over places, say volume of places to full fee paying, to international students so and so forth, inclusive of fee deregulation this will create a truly unequal system.

TBH, our universities are just not good enough, nor will they be, to attract the prices they will be demanding. For families that have the money to pay fees up front, it will likely be worth considering international options.

Regardless, this is a terrible result for Australian students and really strikes at the heart of education equity.

I don't think you have any idea how the money will be invested either. As I said earlier in this thread, the caveat will be IF the money is spent on the courses of those paying, I can't see how it is a bad thing as there will be a direct impact on the quality of your teachers. If it is used to prop up other areas, fund PhD students or pay the salaries of administrators, then I can't see how it will help improve education outcomes.

It will be money and grades that are the key to the quality of the education, just like it is now. Unis that have more money through endowments, scholarships, and post grad students typically have better international standing and better educational outcomes. However, now universities can't pull the funding lever through the student contributions. I don't think it will materially stop lower SES people from going to uni, it will just mean students have more debt, regardless of their SES. No doubt there will be some that will no longer go to uni, which is unfortunate, but if the education outcomes of the remaining 97% of students are significantly improved, then I am all for it.

We agree on one thing, our universities aren't good enough. What we disagree on, is how to change this. You don't like this model, what would you prefer then?