Israel, Palestine, and everything related

[Lester Burnham]

Please provide the source of your 15%- 25% of all Muslims are radicals.

I'll throw this in, not because I agree with her, more as a discussion point. The full article is worth reading.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: The presumption that the Palestinian negotiators are secular is not supported by facts. Were they secular, there would already be a settled territorial agreement of some kind. But there is no agreement as of today, because on one side it has become religious jihad of all or nothing, while on the other side it is still a territorial issue. Of course I know that there are Israelis who also perceive this as a religious problem; but their numbers pale in comparison to the Muslim side. Reaching a settlement that brings about two states is a religious betrayal -- not only for the leadership but for most Muslims today. The West does not understand this.
​

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=10309

 

[Malifice]

i paraphrased a quote from a video i saw last week that involved a panel of diplomats/intellectuals but i could be wrong on exactly who they were. i didnt just make these numbers up. i also said 15-25%, not 1 in 4. i even used 180m figure which was 1.5/10, not 1 in 4 like you have written

That was a video from the Heritage society - a notorious Far Right wing 'think tank' from the USA.

And the 'diplomat/ intellectual' was Brigitte Gabriel a notorious bigot and ethnocentrist.

Here's her vews on Islam, Arabs and Israel (to put her '25 percent' comments into context):

The difference, my friends, between Israel and the Arab world is the difference between civilization and barbarism. It's the difference between good and evil [applause].... this is what we're witnessing in the Arabic world, They have no soul, they are dead set on killing and destruction. And in the name of something they call "Allah" which is very different from the God we believe....[applause] because our God is the God of love.

To paraphrase Gabriel: "Arab Muslims are evil barbarians who lack souls and are dead set on killing and destruction."

I actually forgot her name so I banged 'Lebanese woman christian hates muslims' into Google, and lo and behold she popped up as the first two hits.

TLDR - Accepting her view on Muslims is almost akin to accepting Hitlers views on Jews. Grain of salt (to say the least).

 

[slicedndiced]

dat God of love riding whoopass on dem missiles.

Rapture.

 

[The Edukator]

That was a video from the Heritage society - a notorious Far Right wing 'think tank' from the USA.

And the 'diplomat/ intellectual' was Brigitte Gabriel a notorious bigot and ethnocentrist.

Here's her vews on Islam, Arabs and Israel (to put her '25 percent' comments into context):

The difference, my friends, between Israel and the Arab world is the difference between civilization and barbarism. It's the difference between good and evil [applause].... this is what we're witnessing in the Arabic world, They have no soul, they are dead set on killing and destruction. And in the name of something they call "Allah" which is very different from the God we believe....[applause] because our God is the God of love.

To paraphrase Gabriel: "Arab Muslims are evil barbarians who lack souls and are dead set on killing and destruction."

I actually forgot her name so I banged 'Lebanese woman christian hates muslims' into Google, and lo and behold she popped up as the first two hits.

TLDR - Accepting her view on Muslims is almost akin to accepting Hitlers views on Jews. Grain of salt (to say the least).

fair enough i can accept that. im sure some things she says are valid, others not so valid. i took this number more as fact than opinion though. moderate it back down to a conservative 15% and its still a large number of radicals unfortunately.

 

[Malifice]

fair enough i can accept that. im sure some things she says are valid, others not so valid. i took this number more as fact than opinion though

Its opinion. Unless someone somehow surveyed the worlds 2 billion Muslims and assesed radicalism in the process.

She adds nothing to the discussion, and in fact just gives the radicals that do exist more reason to be radical.

In other words, she contributes to the very problem she seems to despise.

 

[Floor Pie]

I'll throw this in, not because I agree with her, more as a discussion point. The full article is worth reading.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: The presumption that the Palestinian negotiators are secular is not supported by facts. Were they secular, there would already be a settled territorial agreement of some kind. But there is no agreement as of today, because on one side it has become religious jihad of all or nothing, while on the other side it is still a territorial issue. Of course I know that there are Israelis who also perceive this as a religious problem; but their numbers pale in comparison to the Muslim side. Reaching a settlement that brings about two states is a religious betrayal -- not only for the leadership but for most Muslims today. The West does not understand this.
​

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=10309

Great example of how much more complex the situation is, rather than jew vs muslim.
I've read so much about this issue, and I still don't understand which view is correct. I can only posture with what I know, which isn't enough.

 

[Lester Burnham]

Great example of how much more complex the situation is, rather than jew vs muslim.
I've read so much about this issue, and I still don't understand which view is correct. I can only posture with what I know, which isn't enough.

Some of the most ardent critics of Zionism are Jews.

You have to give some time to Ayaan Hirsi Ali due to her background and her clarity of thought. But I think she overgeneralises about Islam rather than focus on fundamentalism. And she does not apply the same blowtorch to fundamentalist Judaism. Having said that, she writes from a female perspective and has an ocean of material to write about Islam compared to Judaism or Christianity.

As regards the Israeli-Palestine problem she seems to present opinions as facts. She claims that it's mainly the Pallies who perceive it as a religious problem. Yet she ignores that Yitzhak Rabin was shot by a fanatic who felt that an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank would deny Jews their biblical heritage which they had reclaimed by establishing settlements.

 

[Floor Pie]

Some of the most ardent critics of Zionism are Jews.

You have to give some time to Ayaan Hirsi Ali due to her background and her clarity of thought. But I think she overgeneralises about Islam rather than focus on fundamentalism. And she does not apply the same blowtorch to fundamentalist Judaism. Having said that, she writes from a female perspective and has an ocean of material to write about Islam compared to Judaism or Christianity.

As regards the Israeli-Palestine problem she seems to present opinions as facts. She claims that it's mainly the Pallies who perceive it as a religious problem. Yet she ignores that Yitzhak Rabin was shot by a fanatic who felt that an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank would deny Jews their biblical heritage which they had reclaimed by establishing settlements.

I've honestly never read her works before. Thanks for adding to the amount of information I don't know! B@stard!

I'll have a look, cheers.

 

[carnthemlions]

http://www.haaretz.com/general/the-country-that-wouldn-t-grow-up-1.186721
This article might be from 2006, but it's sadly more relevant than ever.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/sheerafrenkel/can-israel-win-in-gaza
“They have left us with nothing else to cheer for but Hamas,” she said. “That’s what they have achieved.”
Yup.

Some of the most ardent critics of Zionism are Jews.

You have to give some time to Ayaan Hirsi Ali due to her background and her clarity of thought. But I think she overgeneralises about Islam rather than focus on fundamentalism. And she does not apply the same blowtorch to fundamentalist Judaism. Having said that, she writes from a female perspective and has an ocean of material to write about Islam compared to Judaism or Christianity.

As regards the Israeli-Palestine problem she seems to present opinions as facts. She claims that it's mainly the Pallies who perceive it as a religious problem. Yet she ignores that Yitzhak Rabin was shot by a fanatic who felt that an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank would deny Jews their biblical heritage which they had reclaimed by establishing settlements.

Max Blumenthal, Ilan Pappe, etc. Judeo-Nazism, that's a bit controversial too.

I'm not sure that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is someone whose opinion on the issue is of much value.
The best description I've seen of her work is enlightened intolerance.

 

[strauchnyy]

I always find it interesting hearing from those directly in the conflict - from both sides.

We can all sit here and comment and criticise from the sidelines but in reality, none of us have any clue what it's like.

Especially those nut job protestors that turn violent - I saw a pro Palestine group in the city turn violent, burn Israeli AND an Australian flag. People like that slow down the human race. Anyway I digress..

I found this article a good read, I encourage anti Israel posters to read it, note it for what it is without criticising Israel, and actually recognise where this person is coming from by using their own reasoning and logic.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/shalom-motherfr/

I found this particularly relevant for a lot of of the one eyed anti Israel posters:

"I’m tired of the argument lobbed against us where I read people saying it’s ‘not fair’ because more Palestinians have died than Israelis. Of people asking ‘why are we complaining when we’re the stronger ones?’
My heart bleeds for every innocent killed no matter what side they’re on. Palestinain or Israeli innocents – it matters not.

But I will not apologise for surviving.

For surviving missiles intended to kill me. The fact they didn’t kill me doesn’t mean they weren’t sent with the intention to murder. We have a defence system, shelters, evacuation procedures and governments who take care of us – I will not apologise for living and surviving thanks to being prepared because we have a culture that celebrates our lives and cherishes them instead of sending 10-year old children to be fighters and bombers. I will not apologise for having a business, a home, a family and friends here who want normal lives and to live in peace with our neighbors. I will not apologise for existing and I want nothing more than to co-exist quietly with neighbors who accept me here.

But this is not what Hamas wants."

You can criticise Israel all you want for the civilians that they kill, no problem with that. I have a problem with the unsupported ignorant generalisations (like all jews want ti kill arabs, israel is comitting genicide, israel is trying to kill everyone crap) that do nothing but drive the hate and next minute we have idiots burning Aussie flags in the CBD.

 

[evo]

dat God of love riding whoopass on dem missiles.

Rapture.

 

[blackcat]

phallic

#freud

 

[blackcat]

frisson priupus envy

 

[Floor Pie]

Hahahahaha... What?

 

[blackcat]

yo Lester Burnham Ayaan Hirsi Ali has great cheekbones. evo told me so.

there may have been some "controversy" around her refugee application to The Netherlands. Everything she says may be completely accurate on Islam, i lean to her position. But, i am more interested in her cheekbones, but now she is shacked up with the economics historian Nyall Ferguson at Kennedy School (Harvard) in Cambridge Mass. I could go full rightwing batshit and smear a little like meds always likes to, but dont need to, even if this is not apocryphal

 

[blackcat]

And the 'diplomat/ intellectual' was Brigitte Gabriel

thats a stretch. thats like saying, janet albrechtsen is the pinnacle mind of the 4th estate

 

[evo]

#freud

Oedipus complex

.................

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Just looking at tweets out of Gaza. Israel just bombed a UN building with civilians sheltering in it. Up to 20 dead, they say. Made me blood boil to read it. I really think Israel is crazy.

And this on the the page too.

https://twitter.com/benabyad/media

 

[Malifice]

thats a stretch. thats like saying, janet albrechtsen is the pinnacle mind of the 4th estate

Oh, Im not calling her an intellectual.

Far from it.

 

[medusala]

Its opinion. Unless someone somehow surveyed the worlds 2 billion Muslims and assesed radicalism in the process.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

 

[slicedndiced]

thats a stretch. thats like saying, janet albrechtsen is the pinnacle mind of the 4th estate

thread needs to revert back to another which diverted to BDSM

dem glasses

 

[medusala]

thats a stretch. thats like saying, janet albrechtsen is the pinnacle mind of the 4th estate

She's no Catherine Deveny

But, i am more interested in her cheekbones, but now she is shacked up with the economics historian Nyall Ferguson at Kennedy School (Harvard) in Cambridge Mass. I could go full rightwing batshit and smear a little like meds always likes to

Keynesian rap just for you.

That was a video from the Heritage society - a notorious Far Right wing 'think tank' from the USA.

You were born too late. Would have been a natural in the Spanish inquisition. Heritage , Cato , IPA

Burn them all.

 

[blackcat]

think wank

 

[blackcat]

thread needs to revert back to another which diverted to BDSM

dem glasses

yeah, Contra Mundum has a thing for her. When she was the junior associate sleeping with the national partner at Mallesons or Freehills she may have thrown Contra a bone, a little like the Pulp lead singer Jarvis Cocker sang of Common People and his time at Central St Martins art school, and doing drugs on the mons of the aristocracy. Crap song, crap band, but interesting motif.

think Contra confirmed, she was not the whip type for BDSM, but the paddle type.

 

[medusala]

think wank

Think redundant.

think Contra confirmed, she was not the whip type for BDSM, but the paddle type

Nah, whip. Could definitely see Contra running with the bassets chasing some jodhpur clad thing.

#realmendosnifters