Luke Hodge v Chris Judd

[Xtreme]

Judd won a brownlow at carlton.

He hasn't won a premiership at Carlton which was the point of my post

 

[Schraderbrau]

I agree Hodge is a HOF lock, but one does wonder. I mean, I wouldn't have been thinking that after 2012 and he's not exactly set the world on fire as a player in that time. I suspect he'll get his HOF nod more on the basis of his premiership captaincy and NS medals than on career performance. Which is perfectly fine, so long as one isn't mistaken with the other.

There's no doubt that Hodge's status in the game has benefited immensely from the success he's achieved whilst at Hawthorn. There's also a lot of merit to the suggestion that playing in a very successful side has made him a much better player.

I often wonder if the shoe were on the other foot, and Hodge played the last 7-8 years at Carlton, how he would have performed. The answer to me is pretty simple - nowhere near as well as Judd has.

The fact is Hodge was never a great midfielder, and he was never a player Hawthorn were dependent on for their success like Mitchell, Buddy, Roughead or even a positionally key player like Gibson. He was a luxury at Hawthorn (albeit a very good one).

And I'd add that a reason for Hawthorn's success in recent seasons is that they are very even right across the 22 - Hawks supporters should be celebrating this rather than deifying a player who hasn't earned that right.

 

[Monkey King]

And I'd add that a reason for Hawthorn's success in recent seasons is that they are very even right across the 22 - Hawks supporters should be celebrating this rather than deifying a player who hasn't earned that right.

I think a couple of things are at play here. Firstly his leadership is outstanding, so in a successful era you couldn't help but love a bloke who leads your team to flags. But also he was under question as a no.1 pick in his early career and I think this has stuck with Hawk fans, resulting in them feeling the need to push the guy they love so much up higher than his actual level to compensate for the early criticisms in having missed out on a player like Judd.

I don't get the need myself. He's a great captain, a great player, why not just appreciate who and what he is. I mean, Sticks was a champion CHF for Carlton, an amazing big game player and one of the best captains the league has seen, but I don't feel the need to claim him as being as good a player as Carey.

 

[Schraderbrau]

I think a couple of things are at play here. Firstly his leadership is outstanding, so in a successful era you couldn't help but love a bloke who leads your team to flags. But also he was under question as a no.1 pick in his early career and I think this has stuck with Hawk fans, resulting in them feeling the need to push the guy they love so much up higher than his actual level to compensate for the early criticisms in having missed out on a player like Judd.

I don't get the need myself. He's a great captain, a great player, why not just appreciate who and what he is. I mean, Sticks was a champion CHF for Carlton, an amazing big game player and one of the best captains the league has seen, but I don't feel the need to claim him as being as good a player as Carey.

Yeah I guess the most frustrating thing about this thread is the abuse by Hodge fans of intangible attributes like leadership as evidence that he is a better player than Judd. The reality is that Judd crushes Hodge in almost every individual statistic. Hodge supporters also seem to forget that Judd also is a premiership captain and norm smith medalist who many Carlton supporters would regard as one of the clubs great captains.

I think you make a very valid point on the inferiority complex of Hawks fans. Judd was so brilliant as a younger player that the thought of overlooking him must have hurt (and perhaps still does).

 

[detox]

45% of people on a poll in the age would have picked Hodge in hindsight. This poll is not far from that.

If you guys need help dealing with the fact that in all things considered (leadership , versitility, loyalty , longevity) included that only a minor minority would prefer Hodge as an entire package, you should help each other out with a comforting phone call.

But please, don't ever think Judd was a leader of men like Hodge was. That myth went out the door when Fevola had him in a headlock giving him noogie's like he was a 7 year old child on national TV.

 

[Big Fresh]

Especially when it's Essendon.

Not really; Hodge isn't a player that I worry about tearing my team apart. Even at this stage I'd be more worried about Judd putting the team on his back and putting in a match winning performance. Of course part of that is Hawthorn being a much better all round unit, but it's also because Judd is a more dangerous player.

 

[MinerBoy]

Then there's just the fact that Hodge actually is a bloody great midfielder and an elite player in the AFL, on top of winning the NSMs, and has been for a bloody long time.

Jesus h Christ, choose Judd all you want - no ******* worries at all. But this ******* attempt to write down Hodge to nothing more than a good ordinary player who happened to get lucky to lead a great team and just happened to snag a few normies on top of doing not much else.

* me.............no, not under rated at all. Completely over rated. ******* lol.

 

[Monkey King]

45% of people on a poll in the age would have picked Hodge in hindsight. This poll is not far from that.

LOL. When was that poll? 5 minutes after the Grand Final in a season Judd hardly got on the park? Yeah, I'm not gonna give that poll a tonne of credit.

There are other considerations too mate. Like the dislike for Judd. Look, for whatever myriad of reasons people would choose Hodge good luck to them. I don't agree, but I take no issue either. Hodge is a great player. However, if someone wants to claim Hodge as a better or equal footballer, then yeah nah, I'll pipe up and call bullshit. Coz that's exactly what it is. And a 100% poll result wouldn't change that anymore than a 45% one does.

But please, don't ever think Judd was a leader of men like Hodge was. That myth went out the door when Fevola had him in a headlock giving him noogie's like he was a 7 year old child on national TV.

Yup. And we all heard how Jono Brown, a leader of men, would set Fev on the straight and narrow too. How did Hodge go with young Garlett btw?

Hodge is a great captain, possibly the best of his era, but he hasn't always been that way. And conversely, too many people down-sell Judd in this regard.

 

[Monkey King]

Jesus h Christ, choose Judd all you want - no ******* worries at all. But this ******* attempt to write down Hodge to nothing more than a good ordinary player who happened to get lucky to lead a great team and just happened to snag a few normies on top of doing not much else.

This series of Hodge versus threads have done him no justice at all. He's been compared to players who are better than him and when the inevitable arguments come from Hawk fans about why he stands up in these comparisons, these points get responded to. I don't think anyone has called him a "good ordinary player who happened to get lucky" but if posters are going to use his team's premiership success in their reasoning, it's gonna be pointed out this is not an individual achievement of Hodge's that elevates him above better footballers. In the end, by talking him up beyond his level (and yes, I don't think Hodge has been a truly elite player for most of his career) every rebuttal looks like a relative talk down, which provokes exaggerated exasperation as above; when in actual fact, I'm sure most of the people you feel are saying this, actually think Hodge is a great player.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

People seem to be getting a lot of different ideas confused in this thread.

Many of the people that picked Hodge do not necessarily believe he has been the better player over his career - because that is not the question. The question asks who would you have picked first. That is also why this result is closer than the Voss and Mitchell comparisons. Not because Voss and Mitchell are necessarily better than Judd but because different questions are being asked.

When the question of first picked is asked - additional factors aside from playing ability may also come into the equation - loyalty, versatility, leadership, club needs, even what type of person someone is.

Given Hawthorn probably/arguably got more from Hodge than the clubs that drafted Judd and Ball got from them - it is not hard to see why this poll is as close as it is.

 

[detox]

Yup. And we all heard how Jono Brown, a leader of men, would set Fev on the straight and narrow too. How did Hodge go with young Garlett btw?

Well, for starters, Garlett didn't man handle Hodge like a bitch on national TV.

I don't have a problem with anyone rating Judd over Hodge. A reasonable majority do. The following however Is absurd.

- Your whole Hodge Is a "great" player thing. This is a not so subtle, personal favorite of yours. Hodge is not a "great" player. Chance Bateman was a great player. Hodge is in the top 30 of his Generation, a future hall of famer and one of the best finals players of all time. His accolades speak for themselves, regardless of Judd, and your not so subtle attempts to down play them just lowers your credibility as a poster.

-Hodge was never an elite midfielder/in the top 5 in the comp, despite being named AA in the Centre, coming 2nd in the MVP. He played midfield in 2005 too and was AA. In 2008 when he moved back, he was a top 5/10 player. It's just rubbish.

You continuously sprout this crap because you know that despite your best efforts to present Hodge as a "decent player" plenty of people see that if you ask the overall question of who would you take, Hodge has area's where he bridges any gap there is between them as players - the big ones being Versitility, Leadership and possibly longevity.

It doesn't help you that he has a habit of dominating grand finals either. You better hope that he doesn't somehow get his hands on another Norm Smith or a few more questions will be asked.

 

[MinerBoy]

People seem to be getting a lot of different ideas confused in this thread.

Many of the people that picked Hodge do not necessarily believe he has been the better player over his career - because that is not the question. .

I've been over this months and pages ago. Went through to the keeper.

 

[Schraderbrau]

- Your whole Hodge Is a "great" player thing. This is a not so subtle, personal favorite of yours. Hodge is not a "great" player. Chance Bateman was a great player. Hodge is in the top 30 of his Generation, a future hall of famer and one of the best finals players of all time. His accolades speak for themselves, regardless of Judd, and your not so subtle attempts to down play them just lowers your credibility as a poster.

This paragraph does you absolutely no favors.

First, lol Chance Bateman.

Second, I agree with you 100% that Hodge could be in the top 30 players of his generation. Judd would be regarded by a significant majority of people as in the top 2 of his generation (and it is a clear top 2 at that). I don't understand how a bunch of intangible attributes you and your buddies keep trotting out makes the difference between being from about the 20th-30th of his generation to the second best. It's idiotic.

Two things are patently clear from reading this thread and a lot of media over summer. The recency bias significantly favors Hodge. Furthermore, a lot of people are voting against Judd because of the club he plays for and/or because of several indiscretions he has been involved in during the second half of his career.

 

[detox]

This paragraph does you absolutely no favors.

First, lol Chance Bateman.

.

Why Lol?

Chance bateman was a great player. Probably the best wingman in the comp in 2008.

No where near Hodge or Judd, but he was a great player.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Why Lol?

Chance bateman was a great player. Probably the best wingman in the comp in 2008.

No where near Hodge or Judd, but he was a great player.

Jeff Garlett was probably the best small forward in the comp at one point. Your definition of a great player is very generous. IMO if you're top 30 in your generation then you'd scrape in as a great footballer.

 

[Monkey King]

The following however Is absurd.

- Your whole Hodge Is a "great" player thing.

Wait ... so Hodge is not a great player?

Only a paranoid person would take this as some kind of insult. I suggest you look inward on this one. I notice later on, you've translated this as me saying Hodge is a "decent" player. No, it's very clear what I have said, Hodge is a great player. Not sure how you read any ambiguity in this statement.

I've never said anything about "never an elite midfielder/in top 5 in the comp". What I did say is that I don't think Hodge has been a truly elite player for most of his career; which I think is a very reasonable and accurate statement. He'd have been top 5 once in his career, in 2010. You yourself said it, in that he'd be in top 30 of his generation. I'd say that describes a great player, not an elite one.

And here we arc back to my earlier point, that you guys are so pumped about your man, that totally reasonable statements become relative insults.

 

[detox]

If you end up in your clubs team of the century , and the afl hall of fame (both which Hodge will) you are an "elite" player. No ifs, no buts.

45% of people pick Hodge.

 

[Moist Biscuit]

Question Hawthorn Supporters. If you substituted Hodge for Judd or Voss, would you still have won the 3 premierships?

 

[jakefooty23]

If you end up in your clubs team of the century , and the afl hall of fame (both which Hodge will) you are an "elite" player. No ifs, no buts.

45% of people pick Hodge.

45% are hawks supporters

 

[hawkman]

Question Hawthorn Supporters. If you substituted Hodge for Judd or Voss, would you still have won the 3 premierships?

Possibly, doubt we would have won 08 in they were in place of Hodge but we may have won 2012

 

[Lethality]

There's no doubt that Hodge's status in the game has benefited immensely from the success he's achieved whilst at Hawthorn. There's also a lot of merit to the suggestion that playing in a very successful side has made him a much better player.

I often wonder if the shoe were on the other foot, and Hodge played the last 7-8 years at Carlton, how he would have performed. The answer to me is pretty simple - nowhere near as well as Judd has.

Hodge had arguably his best year in 2005, when Hawthorn finished in the Bottom 4. He has no problems playing well in a poor side.

 

[Lethality]

Question Hawthorn Supporters. If you substituted Hodge for Judd or Voss, would you still have won the 3 premierships?

I don't think we win 2008 if substituting Hodge for Judd or Voss. We might gain 2012, however an injured Judd or Voss coming back from gastro would be just as likely to underperform. 2013 we would still win with Judd/Voss. 2014 same.

 

[masai]

He hasn't won a premiership at Carlton which was the point of my post

To put this to bed with the Premiership reasoning :-

Hodge > Skilton.

First picked, ........ Voss, Judd, Michell, Hodge.

He's good but he aint the messiah.

I find the best way to judge a players career, is to wait at least 5 years after they've retired and the dust has settled. You then have a far better perspective on their careers.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Question Hawthorn Supporters. If you substituted Hodge for Judd or Voss, would you still have won the 3 premierships?

I'd say no simply due to Hodge's performance in the '08 Grand Final. Mind you I am not accounting for the 'butterfly effect' in this opinion, but simply replace Hodge with Voss or Judd in that game and we lose - Hodge repelled a ridiculous amount of forward 50 entries and contests that day, he was a man possessed.

I'd say we would have won '13 and '14 with either Judd or Voss in Hodge's place, not to discount his performance in either game (especially '14, obviously). But in '13 he was relatively quiet, and in '14 we smashed Sydney all over. Once again this doesn't account for the butterfly effect.

 

[Lethality]

When was the last time Judd had a 30+ disposal, 2 goal game?