Marriage equality debate - The plebiscite is on its way. (Cont in Pt 3)

[Farm Boy]

Absolutely.
Each morning I walk past a number of homeless men and wonder what that $120 million could do for them


But you're kind of weird to play off young gay people against homeless men.

You are kind of weird suggesting that I did play off young gay people against homeless people - when I didn't.

 

[DemonTim]

You are kind of weird suggesting that I did play off young gay people against homeless people - when I didn't.

So why are you posting about it, in response to someone discussing homosexuality and suicide, in a thread about marriage equality

I'd love to understand your reasoning for posting it, if it doesn't relate to the topic.

 

[Farm Boy]

None of this is a response to my point...

You're using relative privation to argue against this topic.

Also unless you can provide stats
LGBTI people have the highest rates of suicidality of any population in Australia.

• 20% of trans Australians13 and 15.7% of lesbian, gay and bisexual Australians14 report current suicidal ideation (thoughts). A UK study reported 84% of trans participants having thought about ending their lives at some point.15

• Up to 50% of trans people have actually attempted suicide at least once in their lives.16

• Same-sex attracted Australians have up to 14x higher rates of suicide attempts than their heterosexual peers.17 Rates are 6x higher for same-sex attracted young people (20-42% cf. 7-13%).

Suicidality? That doesn't sound like actual suicide.

 

[Farm Boy]

Suicidality could probably apply to anyone who has had a bad day at the office, FMD.

 

[DemonTim]

Suicidality? That doesn't sound like actual suicide.

So you're asserting that a rate of 14x higher is incorrect in actual suicide, because heterosexuals succeed and homosexuals fail?

 

[DemonTim]

Suicidality could probably apply to anyone who has had a bad day at the office, FMD.

"14x higher rates of suicide attempts"

So all we've got out of you is:
"But their rates aren't as high as x and y"
"Do you have stats? Because here's stats relating to honosexuality"
"Omg. Seriously?! That could mean anything. Beyondblue are god damn liars!"

 

[Farm Boy]

So you're asserting that a rate of 14x higher is incorrect in actual suicide, because heterosexuals succeed and homosexuals fail?

No. I am just pointing out that suicidality isn't actually suicide. Which it isn't.

 

[DemonTim]

No. I am just pointing out that suicidality isn't actually suicide. Which it isn't.

Yes...it was a summation of statistics...which were included in the post...and I just directly referenced with you

 

[Frank Bunn]

"14x higher rates of suicide attempts"

So all we've got out of you is:
"But their rates aren't as high as x and y"
"Do you have stats? Because here's stats relating to honosexuality"
"Omg. Seriously?! That could mean anything. Beyondblue are god damn liars!"

We've discussed this already.

It's not 14x, it's 'up to 14x'.

And this figure quoted by Beyondblue is a false conclusion drawn from a study that had flaws even before the researcher trashed his reputation by pleading guilty to 16 charges of making indecent images of young boys.

 

[DemonTim]

We've discussed this already.

It's not 14x, it's 'up to 14x'.

And this figure quoted by Beyondblue is a false conclusion drawn from a study that had flaws even before the researcher trashed his reputation by pleading guilty to 16 charges of making indecent images of young boys.

Yes we've discussed it before. And I said I really couldn't give a s**t about your attacks on character and to discuss the topic

I'm now questioning this though. Since the source for 14x is
Commonwealth Department of Health and Aged Care (2000); Suicide Prevention Australia (2009)


Here's another source for youth

• 16% of LGBTI[2] young people aged 16 to 27 reported that they had attempted suicide[iv]
• 35% of Transgender people aged 18 and over[3] have attempted suicide in their lifetime[v]
• 19% of people with an Intersex variation aged 16 and over had attempted suicide on the basis of issues related their Intersex status
• 8% of Same-Gender Attracted and Gender Diverse young people between 14 and 21 years had attempted suicide, 18% had experienced verbal abuse, and 37% of those who experienced physical abuse[vii]

Statistics for General Population

• 3.2% of people (4.4% females; 2.1% males) aged 16 and over have attempted suicide in their lifetime; 0.4% of general population (0.5% females; 0.3% males) in the last 12 months[viii]
• 1.1% of people (1.7% females; 0.5% males) aged 16 to 24 have attempted suicide in the past 12 months[ix]

 

[Showbags]

We've discussed this already.

It's not 14x, it's 'up to 14x'.

And this figure quoted by Beyondblue is a false conclusion drawn from a study that had flaws even before the researcher trashed his reputation by pleading guilty to 16 charges of making indecent images of young boys.

How did it have flaws?

 

[Spirit Level]

Do you ever spare a thought for the many thousands of men that kills themselves - as a result of homelessness and family custody issues (that stem from an unfair and unjust system), or is only the gay kids that kill themselves that you feel for? The very small fraction of gay kids that kill themselves - in comparison to the thousands of men that do.

What does that have to do with this thread?

 

[Farm Boy]

What does that have to do with this thread?

I was pointing out that the people shouting "poor gays that are killing themselves" - conveniently only come out during this issue. Which they do. Suicide matters to many people now that it relates to a politicized issues like SSM. You could say they are standing on the graves of young kids in order to politicize the issue.

 

[DemonTim]

I was pointing out that the people shouting "poor gays that are killing themselves" - conveniently only come out during this issue. Which they do. Suicide matters to many people now that it relates to a politicized issues like SSM. You could say they are standing on the graves of young kids in order to politicize the issue.

Yet you haven't shown that people do this...

Men's health charities run some of the biggest campaigns in Australia

It seems you've picked a specific issue, and said because you've decided they don't care about it, that means they're politicising it. Which hypocritically, is exactly what you're doing

As I've already pointed out. You're relying on a logical fallacy (which you've yet to prove is even correct)

 

[Chief]

If they were adjusting for sampling error and making an inference about the data then it would make this much more relevant (still not needed).

The already gaping flaws in the process such as multiple forms turning up at one address and the non-compulsory nature of it, leading to some voters not being likely to cast their ballot, will not be accounted for. Thus the result is likely to not be entirely indicative of the majority's view.

I might be missing something?

Isn't all that stuff what they would be trying to account for?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Showbags]

I might be missing something?

Isn't all that stuff what they would be trying to account for?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Not really, they are essentially just conducting a first past the post vote.

They wont be adjusting the statistics gathered at all. Just announcing the totals at the end.

 

[Spirit Level]

I was pointing out that the people shouting "poor gays that are killing themselves" - conveniently only come out during this issue. Which they do. Suicide matters to many people now that it relates to a politicized issues like SSM. You could say they are standing on the graves of young kids in order to politicize the issue.

What a ridiculously stupid and far off the mark comment to make

 

[GTroit]

I was pointing out that the people shouting "poor gays that are killing themselves" - conveniently only come out during this issue. Which they do. Suicide matters to many people now that it relates to a politicized issues like SSM. You could say they are standing on the graves of young kids in order to politicize the issue.

Do you agree that LBGT youth have a higher rate of suicide/suicidal ideation? If so, do you agree that that's a bad thing? If so, do you agree that social attitudes towards homosexuality, transgenderism, bisexuality (and let's not forget bisexuality - a lot of bisexuals are shunned by both the gay and straight community) are a significant factor in creating these ideations?

If so, then I don't see how you have an issue with suicide/ideations thereof being raised as an issue that needs to be discussed in light of this topic.

Yes a lot of men commit suicide. Yes a lot of homeless people commit suicide. But this is a marriage equality thread - do you really think it is necessary or appropriate to raise these issues on this particular thread in light of that?

 

[Farm Boy]

Do you agree that LBGT youth have a higher rate of suicide/suicidal ideation? If so, do you agree that that's a bad thing? If so, do you agree that social attitudes towards homosexuality, transgenderism, bisexuality (and let's not forget bisexuality - a lot of bisexuals are shunned by both the gay and straight community) are a significant factor in creating these ideations?

I don't believe it is that clear cut. For instance. Is there an overlap between LBGT and mental illness? Is suicidal ideation more common among those with mental illness? Maybe that is the case. A large portion of these statistics could be put down to mental illness - and not LBGT. Although, I would like to know the prevalence of mental illness within the LBGT community. Perhaps there is a link. That is something of interest.

 

[GTroit]

I don't believe it is that clear cut. For instance. Is there an overlap between LBGT and mental illness? Is suicidal ideation more common among those with mental illness? Maybe that is the case. A large portion of these statistics could be put down to mental illness - and not LBGT. Although, I would like to know the prevalence of mental illness within the LBGT community. Perhaps there is a link. That is something of interest.

But you agree that LBGT suffer greater amounts of suicide/suicidal ideation than non-LGBT individuals? If that's the case, then you trying to introduce the greater rates of ideation/attempts of the homeless, and men, generally, is nothing more than derailment - especially in line with the topic at hand. This thread is about gay marriage. Therefore, issues that affect gay people will be discussed. One of those issues is ideation/inflated suicide numbers.

The actual cause is most likely mental illness. The most likely cause of mental illness in LGBT individuals is the all-pervading view that they are somehow "lesser" than their heterosexual counterparts and a sense of a lack of belonging. Debating their right to freely marry their partner doesn't, surprisingly, do wonders for this mentality.

I doubt you can say that suicide/suicidal ideations are the actions/thoughts of those without an underlying mental condition, though. So saying that the likely cause for ideation is mental illness is kind of superfluous.

 

[Farm Boy]

But you agree that LBGT suffer greater amounts of suicide/suicidal ideation than non-LGBT individuals? If that's the case, then you trying to introduce the greater rates of ideation/attempts of the homeless, and men, generally, is nothing more than derailment - especially in line with the topic at hand. This thread is about gay marriage. Therefore, issues that affect gay people will be discussed. One of those issues is ideation/inflated suicide numbers.

The actual cause is most likely mental illness. The most likely cause of mental illness in LGBT individuals is the all-pervading view that they are somehow "lesser" than their heterosexual counterparts and a sense of a lack of belonging. Debating their right to freely marry their partner doesn't, surprisingly, do wonders for this mentality.

I doubt you can say that suicide/suicidal ideations are the actions/thoughts of those without an underlying mental condition, though. So saying that the likely cause for ideation is mental illness is kind of superfluous.

Like I said earlier - suicidal ideation could be a bad day at work. There is a lot of mumbo jumbo, and a lot of academic dribble that I see atm - and none more so than suicidal ideation. Which to most ordinary folk would mean they are having a bad day, perhaps they have bills, are in debt, and they aren't coping. Some of the bullsh*t labels people come up with today are ridiculous. Hey, lets come up with some more labels to justify people feeling bad. Gimme a break.

 

[DemonTim]

Like I said earlier - suicidal ideation could be a bad day at work. There is a lot of mumbo jumbo, and a lot of academic dribble that I see atm - and none more so than suicidal ideation. Which to most ordinary folk would mean they are having a bad day, perhaps they have bills, are in debt, and they aren't coping. Some of the bullsh*t labels people come up with today are ridiculous. Hey, lets come up with some more labels to justify people feeling bad. Gimme a break.

Yet when provided with actual discussion on "suicide attempts" you disappear

You've still yet to answer how anything your saying relates to the topic, or even show that your assertions are accurate.

Considering you've been vocally opposed to SSM in the past, no one should give you the benefit of the doubt on why you would do the above. Deflection, plain and simple.

 

[Showbags]

Like I said earlier - suicidal ideation could be a bad day at work. There is a lot of mumbo jumbo, and a lot of academic dribble that I see atm - and none more so than suicidal ideation. Which to most ordinary folk would mean they are having a bad day, perhaps they have bills, are in debt, and they aren't coping. Some of the bullsh*t labels people come up with today are ridiculous. Hey, lets come up with some more labels to justify people feeling bad. Gimme a break.

This is the bigfooty post equivalent of waving the white flag.

 

[GTroit]

Like I said earlier - suicidal ideation could be a bad day at work. There is a lot of mumbo jumbo, and a lot of academic dribble that I see atm - and none more so than suicidal ideation. Which to most ordinary folk would mean they are having a bad day, perhaps they have bills, are in debt, and they aren't coping. Some of the bullsh*t labels people come up with today are ridiculous. Hey, lets come up with some more labels to justify people feeling bad. Gimme a break.

So you legitimately think that the increased suicidal ideation of LBGT individuals (up to 14x the normal rate, as has been discussed on this thread) is comparable to someone having a bad day at work? Not even this, but you legitimately think that people contemplate suicide (as in, seriously contemplate it) after having a bad day at work?

In a similar vein, if you're going to disparage suicide ideation, then you must know that that works against your own argument, too, mustn't you? Those men and the homeless having heightened ideation numbers (according to your own argument)? Could just be they had a bad day at work, after all, hey?

As someone having experienced suicidal thoughts because of my sexuality, I find your comments grossly insensitive. But it's okay, I know not to take anything said on this forum to heart.

 

[Azul]

I do find it a bit of a red herring when Coalition office bearers and members of the government for the NO side cite religious protections as an argument.

THEY, the conservatives, are in power and the only ones capable of drafting the bill before parliament. Any protections will be built into legislation.

To suggest safeguards won't be put into law or overturned by a soulless post-theist progressive alliance (those godless Trotskyists! ) some point in the future really does sound like paranoid reds-under-the-bed wedge politics.