Saints News Saints appoint list management team

[gringo2011]

Bloody harsh. For about 6 years he was getting a lot of the ball and was a goal kicking mid. Just because you rate Delidio better surely doesn’t make Cooney an ordinary player. Had great pace and broke the lines.

I never rated him that highly. I think he was good but certainly not the best in the comp level. I reckon Cooney was a Stuv level player who was in the right place at the right time.

 

[gringo2011]

Both clubs also failed by dropping back. There is simply no right or wrong way to do it. You just need 2 very good drafts in a row. Hopefully last year was the first and this year the second. Last year looks good but obviously too early to say but we did that without dropping down. Tge best picks are from 10 down obviously but there is usually a star or two in most drafts after pick 10. A lot of luck needed but it can happen. Anyway I see us just holding our spot this year. We start with so many 50/50 games and at the moment the list looks depleted because of injury and with a fair few missing a lot of pre season.

I think that if you want elite talent, you need to get into the top 6 to 8 picks ideally for a few drafts unless you luck some players. We really stuffed up drafting pretty much from Brendan Goddard in 2002 onwards until probably Max King in 2018. Sixteen years of below average drafting is still costing us now. Jack Steven and Sam Fisher probably the only really top players in between.

I think we have really good depth but lack elite talent, Lyon is probably the ideal coach for that type of list. We have about 6+ players that have potential to go to another level, Gresham, Billings etc who haven't been able to consistently get on the field in top condition etc.

I don't know what to expect this season but I'm not limiting it yet. It could go either way with some luck.

 

[plugger66]

I never rated him that highly. I think he was good but certainly not the best in the comp level. I reckon Cooney was a Stuv level player who was in the right place at the right time.

If he was at that level then he is a very good player.

 

[plugger66]

I think that if you want elite talent, you need to get into the top 6 to 8 picks ideally for a few drafts unless you luck some players. We really stuffed up drafting pretty much from Brendan Goddard in 2002 onwards until probably Max King in 2018. Sixteen years of below average drafting is still costing us now. Jack Steven and Sam Fisher probably the only really top players in between.

I think we have really good depth but lack elite talent, Lyon is probably the ideal coach for that type of list. We have about 6+ players that have potential to go to another level, Gresham, Billings etc who haven't been able to consistently get on the field in top condition etc.

I don't know what to expect this season but I'm not limiting it yet. It could go either way with some luck.

Funny how we see our list. I see our problem obviously being hardly any stars but more the lack of depth. When I’ve seen people put players like stocker Alison and one or two others in the 22 then to me it shows lack of depth. No back up ruck or tall forward or tall back for a start. I think the area I was most concerned about being the midfield could have so much depth by the end of the year we could trade out a player or two. As I said I agree the top picks usually get the best players but Geelong haven’t had to do it. Sydney hardly ever do it. The pies hardly ever do it. North have tried for 3 years without looking close yet. It that period of below average drafting we did as you think clubs should do with no success. Let’s face it if you think your way you use the dees the second time around. Not sure you can use Carlton yet. At this very moment they have achieved nothing even though I’m certain they will play finals this year. If you think my way you can use Geelong or Carlton and Melbourne their first time.

 

[sammm]

Sorry to intrude you have made some good appointments this off season well done and sos is ok but I wonder if the club tried to approach one of your former boys in Jason cripps and tried poaching him from port? in my opinion he is one of the best in the business.

I believe we did and he didn't want to break his contract

 

[gringo2011]

Funny how we see our list. I see our problem obviously being hardly any stars but more the lack of depth. When I’ve seen people put players like stocker Alison and one or two others in the 22 then to me it shows lack of depth. No back up ruck or tall forward or tall back for a start. I think the area I was most concerned about being the midfield could have so much depth by the end of the year we could trade out a player or two. As I said I agree the top picks usually get the best players but Geelong haven’t had to do it. Sydney hardly ever do it. The pies hardly ever do it. North have tried for 3 years without looking close yet. It that period of below average drafting we did as you think clubs should do with no success. Let’s face it if you think your way you use the dees the second time around. Not sure you can use Carlton yet. At this very moment they have achieved nothing even though I’m certain they will play finals this year. If you think my way you can use Geelong or Carlton and Melbourne their first time.

I think we have depth in most areas but when you get too many from one area go down you get tested. Most sides that get through seasons in the top 8 have had a good injury run or their depth gets tested and someone waiting in the wings steps up. We have a very even spread of talent without too many passenger types now but as you say that real cream is missing. Sinclair, Steele, King probably our absolute best but then huge pool of guys who look ready to step up. Gresham, Billings, Coffield, Clark, Paton, Byrnes, Sharman, Hill, Marshall, Higgins, Windhager. Owens etc

Then a pool of solid but unspectacular types like Crouch, Ross, Wilkie, Howard, Butler etc.
Last year we couldn't find a spot for Sharman up forward and when Steele went down we had Bytel and Hanners unavailable. Campbell was playing well at Sandy and couldn't get elevated.

Stocker is more semi developed depth. Doubt he walks into a best 22 spot unless he jumps existing players which isn't a bad thing. We probably only lack depth in our small forwards and true KP forwards/ back now but then Cordy seems to have been grabbed for that apparently.

It's interesting to look at Geelong and compare our turn over. Geelong have been lucky to attract quality outside established talent but also very good at finding and developing talent to a decent standard but really rely on a structure and system to extract every drop. I think Lyon is likely to give us a similar platform and if we can be better at recruiting and drafting at the same time we should be able to have a sustained period of success.

2015 St Kilda listed players still left: Ross, Billings, Membrey, Webster, McKenzie, Sinclair
2015 Geelong players still left: Stanley, Kolo, Duncan, Hawkins, Guthrie, Blicavs.

 

[plugger66]

I think we have depth in most areas but when you get too many from one area go down you get tested. Most sides that get through seasons in the top 8 have had a good injury run or their depth gets tested and someone waiting in the wings steps up. We have a very even spread of talent without too many passenger types now but as you say that real cream is missing. Sinclair, Steele, King probably our absolute best but then huge pool of guys who look ready to step up. Gresham, Billings, Coffield, Clark, Paton, Byrnes, Sharman, Hill, Marshall, Higgins, Windhager. Owens etc

Then a pool of solid but unspectacular types like Crouch, Ross, Wilkie, Howard, Butler etc.
Last year we couldn't find a spot for Sharman up forward and when Steele went down we had Bytel and Hanners unavailable. Campbell was playing well at Sandy and couldn't get elevated.

Stocker is more semi developed depth. Doubt he walks into a best 22 spot unless he jumps existing players which isn't a bad thing. We probably only lack depth in our small forwards and true KP forwards/ back now but then Cordy seems to have been grabbed for that apparently.

It's interesting to look at Geelong and compare our turn over. Geelong have been lucky to attract quality outside established talent but also very good at finding and developing talent to a decent standard but really rely on a structure and system to extract every drop. I think Lyon is likely to give us a similar platform and if we can be better at recruiting and drafting at the same time we should be able to have a sustained period of success.

2015 St Kilda listed players still left: Ross, Billings, Membrey, Webster, McKenzie, Sinclair
2015 Geelong players still left: Stanley, Kolo, Duncan, Hawkins, Guthrie, Blicavs.

Well we see it differently with depth. Of course you don’t have ready made good players as depth. It’s a waste of salary cap space and the players will just leave yes if you lose more than one in an area especially big guys most clubs are stuffed. The thing is you are using Sharman as depth but he hasn’t proved anything yet. And whilst hayes may or may not end up a very good player you would think he is a huge loss the way some talk about him. His versatility is a huge loss but we have no idea if his ability is a huge loss. I’ve said it for years about the saints and I’m sure it applies to most clubs. Your depth looks great when you are winning. I’m sure many threads last year could believe our depth at round 11. But you starting losing a few games your depth usually looks terrible and that’s how I remember comments late last year. If the midfield can get rid of this same same player and replace it with different types that will make the forward and backline better thus depth may even look better. The forward line does worry me early in the season with so many 50/50 games. Unless our mids become goal kickers I have no idea where the goals come from. I expect defensive Lyon early this year.

 

[gringo2011]

Well we see it differently with depth. Of course you don’t have ready made good players as depth. It’s a waste of salary cap space and the players will just leave yes if you lose more than one in an area especially big guys most clubs are stuffed. The thing is you are using Sharman as depth but he hasn’t proved anything yet. And whilst hayes may or may not end up a very good player you would think he is a huge loss the way some talk about him. His versatility is a huge loss but we have no idea if his ability is a huge loss. I’ve said it for years about the saints and I’m sure it applies to most clubs. Your depth looks great when you are winning. I’m sure many threads last year could believe our depth at round 11. But you starting losing a few games your depth usually looks terrible and that’s how I remember comments late last year. If the midfield can get rid of this same same player and replace it with different types that will make the forward and backline better thus depth may even look better. The forward line does worry me early in the season with so many 50/50 games. Unless our mids become goal kickers I have no idea where the goals come from. I expect defensive Lyon early this year.

Isn't that what you are saying though? We have a best 22 pair of KPFs in Membrey and King. Developing depth with Sharman and experienced state level mature in Hayes. Rucks we have a state league elder in Campbell, a developing youth ruck in Heath and a very young KPF/ruck in Keeler. Hayes as a capable KP who can fill in as a ruck forward and Marshall who should take the number 1 ruck role.

I think the midfield depth looks very good now with a spread of developing types and older best 22. Crouch, Gresham, Ross, Steele, Jones first in line. Bytel, Byrnes, Stocker, Clark all semi developed and potential jump ups. Windhager, Owens, Phillipou, Hotton types developing underneath.

Hill, Dmac, Wood, Billings and Wanganeen-Milera as wings different stages of development.

Half backs are Sinclair (midfield potential), NWM, Webster, Coffield, Clark, Stocker, Paton, Mc Lennan, Connolly etc

Tall backs are Cordy, Battle, Wilkie, Howard, VanEs, Highmore, Adams

Small forwards, Butler, Higgins, Peris....with Gresham and Billings also able to play there.

To me the only positions that don't have a great deal of depth are the small forward roles. A gun small forward would make a huge difference and we have a hole if one we do have goes down.

 

[plugger66]

Isn't that what you are saying though? We have a best 22 pair of KPFs in Membrey and King. Developing depth with Sharman and experienced state level mature in Hayes. Rucks we have a state league elder in Campbell, a developing youth ruck in Heath and a very young KPF/ruck in Keeler. Hayes as a capable KP who can fill in as a ruck forward and Marshall who should take the number 1 ruck role.

I think the midfield depth looks very good now with a spread of developing types and older best 22. Crouch, Gresham, Ross, Steele, Jones first in line. Bytel, Byrnes, Stocker, Clark all semi developed and potential jump ups. Windhager, Owens, Phillipou, Hotton types developing underneath.

Hill, Dmac, Wood, Billings and Wanganeen-Milera as wings different stages of development.

Half backs are Sinclair (midfield potential), NWM, Webster, Coffield, Clark, Stocker, Paton, Mc Lennan, Connolly etc

Tall backs are Cordy, Battle, Wilkie, Howard, VanEs, Highmore, Adams

Small forwards, Butler, Higgins, Peris....with Gresham and Billings also able to play there.

To me the only positions that don't have a great deal of depth are the small forward roles. A gun small forward would make a huge difference and we have a hole if one we do have goes down.

No I’m actually saying especially for taller forwards we have no proof they are depth but plenty hang their hat on that. I totally agree about the midfield depth because I’m seeing great quality in some of the young guys. I suppose could say that about the tall depth but I’m not so sure. Sharman just seems like white to me. Hype but no proof. Hayes is 5 games in off 2 serious injuries. Small forwards is ok but I can see it being better if gresh can go back there but the proviso is a mid with a difference like gresh replaces him. I’m not counting peris as depth. Tall backs seem ok numbers wise but there isn’t much to get excited about. If you include unplayed guys every club has depth but to me depth is a C grader replaced by a lower C grader not a D grader. Out of all positions for starting the year if Marshall was to get injured we might not even have a ruckman. Yes by name we may but by ability I can’t see it. Campbell isn’t even doing proper training until March.

 

[Mr Pickles]

Ugh, I nearly vomited seeing that we employed that chump SOS to manage our list. F***

 

[saintmike65]

Isn't that what you are saying though? We have a best 22 pair of KPFs in Membrey and King. Developing depth with Sharman and experienced state level mature in Hayes. Rucks we have a state league elder in Campbell, a developing youth ruck in Heath and a very young KPF/ruck in Keeler. Hayes as a capable KP who can fill in as a ruck forward and Marshall who should take the number 1 ruck role.

I think the midfield depth looks very good now with a spread of developing types and older best 22. Crouch, Gresham, Ross, Steele, Jones first in line. Bytel, Byrnes, Stocker, Clark all semi developed and potential jump ups. Windhager, Owens, Phillipou, Hotton types developing underneath.

Hill, Dmac, Wood, Billings and Wanganeen-Milera as wings different stages of development.

Half backs are Sinclair (midfield potential), NWM, Webster, Coffield, Clark, Stocker, Paton, Mc Lennan, Connolly etc

Tall backs are Cordy, Battle, Wilkie, Howard, VanEs, Highmore, Adams

Small forwards, Butler, Higgins, Peris....with Gresham and Billings also able to play there.

To me the only positions that don't have a great deal of depth are the small forward roles. A gun small forward would make a huge difference and we have a hole if one we do have goes down.

Higgins and Gresham have the capacity to be elite small forwards.

 

[gringo2011]

No I’m actually saying especially for taller forwards we have no proof they are depth but plenty hang their hat on that. I totally agree about the midfield depth because I’m seeing great quality in some of the young guys. I suppose could say that about the tall depth but I’m not so sure. Sharman just seems like white to me. Hype but no proof. Hayes is 5 games in off 2 serious injuries. Small forwards is ok but I can see it being better if gresh can go back there but the proviso is a mid with a difference like gresh replaces him. I’m not counting peris as depth. Tall backs seem ok numbers wise but there isn’t much to get excited about. If you include unplayed guys every club has depth but to me depth is a C grader replaced by a lower C grader not a D grader. Out of all positions for starting the year if Marshall was to get injured we might not even have a ruckman. Yes by name we may but by ability I can’t see it. Campbell isn’t even doing proper training until March.

Spencer had heaps of potential but didn't have the dedication or will to improve. I haven't seen anything to suggest that Sharman has a lack of dedication. He went to the backline and played well last years. Worked hard on his running and has improved his physical presence in the gym. He's not the finished product but as you said, those guys don't hang around playing VFL. He might not end up being a star but so far he is going at better that average.

I'm pointing out depth is a range of ages and development. You don't want a second side in reserve, you want some developing talent and some ready to play depth. Hayes looks like a quality adaptable swing man. He doesn't have to star just be an upgrade version of Johnno Marsh.

 

[Joffaboy]

Ugh, I nearly vomited seeing that we employed that chump SOS to manage our list. F***

Quality input.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[plugger66]

Spencer had heaps of potential but didn't have the dedication or will to improve. I haven't seen anything to suggest that Sharman has a lack of dedication. He went to the backline and played well last years. Worked hard on his running and has improved his physical presence in the gym. He's not the finished product but as you said, those guys don't hang around playing VFL. He might not end up being a star but so far he is going at better that average.

I'm pointing out depth is a range of ages and development. You don't want a second side in reserve, you want some developing talent and some ready to play depth. Hayes looks like a quality adaptable swing man. He doesn't have to star just be an upgrade version of Johnno Marsh.

It was about the hype Not his attitude. I have no idea what that is like. I suppose it also depends what’s better than average. If it’s his draft position then certainty. If it’s what he has actually shown not so sure. And as for hayes my point like Sharman is it’s more guess work than what has actually happened. And I’m probably pointing out depth early in the season so hayes isn’t even depth. By the end of the year our depth could be fantastic. Considering we haven’t really recruited and I thought our depth was ordinary last year I’m finding it hard to say it’s ok this year. I need some games to decide otherwise I’m just using what I saw late last season.

 

[plugger66]

Quality input.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

No worse than the crap that idiot who was speaking to himself yesterday.

 

[marcmurphy3]

It maybe the easiest and he is the recruiting guys boss but it’s not really the reality. The list manager cannot see these guys play enough to make an informed decision. What he certainly should do is telling the recruiting guys the type needed and if a recruiter says we need more picks then that is the list managers responsibility. They must work completely together. If for example toce had two poor drafts with 2 different list managers then surely the problem is toce not the new list manager.

The role SOS plays in recruitment will ultimately come down to how you structure your football department.

At Carlton the whole recruiting team reported to him so it was ultimately SOS who was accountable for the recruitment of players (draft or trade). There was a national recruiting manager who would see more of the players but SOS would have had the final decision. Only those inside the club would know much SOS deferred to the recruitment team vs making his own calls (just like any manager).

If this is the reporting structure at the Saints I imagine SOS would have a pretty big say on individual players you draft.

If on the other hand SOS and the recruiting manager are peers both reporting to the football manager the dynamic will be completely different.

 

[plugger66]

The role SOS plays in recruitment will ultimately come down to how you structure your football department.

At Carlton the whole recruiting team reported to him so it was ultimately SOS who was accountable for the recruitment of players (draft or trade). There was a national recruiting manager who would see more of the players but SOS would have had the final decision. Only those inside the club would know much SOS deferred to the recruitment team vs making his own calls (just like any manager).

If this is the reporting structure at the Saints I imagine SOS would have a pretty big say on individual players you draft.

If on the other hand SOS and the recruiting manager are peers both reporting to the football manager the dynamic will be completely different.

Hopefully we take the second option. Do Carlton now take the second option? I think the list manager should certainly have the final say on the type of player but no name should be attached.

 

[saintmike65]

From reading back, he was a bit of a polarising player. Some had him very high, some had him around 15. Billings was a consensus pick and safe, in hindsight he was never going to be a mid. It's like we went safe when we should go brave and brave when we should have played it safe.

This very scenario could well pan out for Essendon.
They took Tsatas at #4 when they could’ve & maybe should’ve picked Phillipou.
Even allowing for my saints bias, I honestly believe Mattaes will turn out the best player in his draft pool!

 

[marcmurphy3]

Hopefully we take the second option. Do Carlton now take the second option? I think the list manager should certainly have the final say on the type of player but no name should be attached.

I believe the recruitment team reports through to Austin so still option 1. Though option 1 isnt nessecarily worse then option 2. It depends on the style of the head of list management.

 

[saintmike65]

I think the recruiting has been pretty good for about 6 years or so. It's amazing how many list changes happen at most club over that period. If Hunter Clark and Coffield cement best 22 spots and Bytel can be serious depth, then we need to reassess that draft.

From the 2017 list that we recruited Hunter and Coff to, we have lost- Hickey, Carlisle, Steven, Savage, Dunny, Acres, Freezer, Montagna, Rooey, Lonie, Geary, Newnes, Roberton, Longer, Gilbert, Armo, Long, Brown, Goddard, Dempster, Stevens, Bruce, Phillips, White, Paddy Mc, O'Kearney, Wright, Rice, Couglan, Joyce, Connellan, Minch, Pierce, Weller and Holmes.

That was a real end of an era list and we just hadn't been able to replace the good players with the same quality before they finished up. I don't rate Lethlean but him coming in was at least a very active attempt to overhaul the list quickly while staying mid table. I think we now have enough talent on the list to play finals and a coaching and footy department set up that will train a standard and a structure that won't hold us back.

I would personally have dropped back a bit to go forward but that's just me. Melbourne and Carlton have more stars because they dropped low on the ladder for an extended period and drafted well with their high picks.

Melbourne have taken full advantage of the ability to manipulate future picks..done it brilliantly and ended up getting more earlier picks to expedite their improvement.

 

[saintmike65]

Sorry to intrude you have made some good appointments this off season well done and sos is ok but I wonder if the club tried to approach one of your former boys in Jason cripps and tried poaching him from port? in my opinion he is one of the best in the business.

Yes, they went hard for Cripps but he’s happy at Port.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Yes, they went hard for Cripps but he’s happy at Port.

And Kinnear Beatson apparently.

 

[gringo2011]

Melbourne have taken full advantage of the ability to manipulate future picks..done it brilliantly and ended up getting more earlier picks to expedite their improvement.

If that means trading up, they have been excellent at it. You have to be good at and very confident at recruiting to make those big calls. Melbourne were like us where they could put their hand into a chocolate box and pull out a turd for years. Now they find ways to move into the right spots to grab high end talent. Funny enough a lot are very Bont like in their rise up the order. Clayton Oliver and Jackson were both rockets up the order from nowhere.

 

[saintmike65]

If that means trading up, they have been excellent at it. You have to be good at and very confident at recruiting to make those big calls. Melbourne were like us where they could put their hand into a chocolate box and pull out a turd for years. Now they find ways to move into the right spots to grab high end talent. Funny enough a lot are very Bont like in their rise up the order. Clayton Oliver and Jackson were both rockets up the order from nowhere.

We might have our own Bont now..better late than never!!

 

[gringo2011]

This very scenario could well pan out for Essendon.
They took Tsatas at #4 when they could’ve & maybe should’ve picked Phillipou.
Even allowing for my saints bias, I honestly believe Mattaes will turn out the best player in his draft pool!

I was right into Tsatas and then read Aussierulesrules assessment and can't see it any more. Was always a big Poo fan and really glad to have grabbed him. I loved Wardlaw and then keen on a dice roll for Humphrey if he fell our way but for once I think we had the right player land in our lap. I love his attitude and drive. I think he's got potential star factor and the ability to get the most out of himself. I see Fyfe like personality in him. The talent might not match but it looks like it's these.