Saints News Saints appoint list management team

[lewdogs]

I am fine with the SOS appointment. He has experience, and should work well with the current team.

But I still don't really get why Gallagher cops it. I think he has done a great job revamping the list. The assumption that he was sacked when both he and the club said it was for his family to be in SA is fairly harsh.

For me if there's a question mark it's Gubby. He has been at the club for years, what has he actually done?

 

[pebblesofsand]

You really need to understand context. Unbelievably obtuse and churlish posts.

Stop your assanine trolling.

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I do understand the context.

Billings/Bontempelli 8 years ago

Petracca/ McCartin 9 years ago.

Relevance to today - absolutely zilch.

More relevant discussion for Saints fans today is - why were the people we've placed in significant positions today sacked by their previous clubs?

 

[gringo2011]

Oh gawd - we're back on McCartin/Petracca and Bont/Billings.

Its our very own version of Godwins Law - 2 pages of draft discussions must produce the inevitable reference to Petracca/McCartin.

You know until we are playing regular finals, this is going to be on repeat. If that's not motivation for the club nothing is.

 

[gringo2011]

Like I said sometimes a pick outside top 3 can be a bonus, Bont and Max @4, because Max had the knee, Bailey Smith at 7 same draft, Phillipou at 10 for us, NWM at 13 etc.
Our highest pick for years has been Max.



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You can definitely roll the dice a bit more. Pick 1 rarely gets the best player. There is a sweet spot though, most Brownlow places are held by high picked players.

 

[plugger66]

You know until we are playing regular finals, this is going to be on repeat. If that's not motivation for the club nothing is.

You know until we are playing regular finals, this is going to be on repeat. If that's not motivation for the club nothing is.

Unfortunately well fortunately no one from the club reads our crap

 

[plugger66]

You can definitely roll the dice a bit more. Pick 1 rarely gets the best player. There is a sweet spot though, most Brownlow places are held by high picked players.

It certainly rarely gets the best but it’s still probably the leading pick. I think it pretty much goes close to order. Well certainly since clubs got fair dinkum.

 

[gringo2011]

Does that mean club rated him pick 4 becaus knoghtmare had him in the power ratings thing? I reckon if one or more clubs had him at 15 then it was a surprise pick. Did anyone have him at pick 3? As I said the only time he was rated higher than 8 is when one draft person heard the dogs were taking him. It’s actually easy to look up where he was thought to go. None at pick 3. I think billings lowest pick was 5. Some had him 2.

From reading back, he was a bit of a polarising player. Some had him very high, some had him around 15. Billings was a consensus pick and safe, in hindsight he was never going to be a mid. It's like we went safe when we should go brave and brave when we should have played it safe.

 

[plugger66]

From reading back, he was a bit of a polarising player. Some had him very high, some had him around 15. Billings was a consensus pick and safe, in hindsight he was never going to be a mid. It's like we went safe when we should go brave and brave when we should have played it safe.

Yes that is hindsight. Is a safe pick those who think they should be between 2 and 5. Imagine if you took a punt on those unsafe picks in the first 5 every year? Is paddy counted as a failed unsafe pick. There was nothing to suggest early in billings career he wouldn’t reach a very good standard. I am 100% certain sone on here we’re still arguing billings could pass bont even 3 or 4 years into his career. Most draft experts get the order close to right. That must mean nearly all picks early are safe picks and that’s how it should be.

 

[gringo2011]

It certainly rarely gets the best but it’s still probably the leading pick. I think it pretty much goes close to order. Well certainly since clubs got fair dinkum.

Nick Riewoldt, Luke Hodge, Brendon Goddard, Adam Cooney, Brett Deledio, Marc Murphy, Bryce Gibbs, Matthew Kreuzer, Jack Watts, Tom Scully, David Swallow, Jonathon Patton, Lachie Whitfield, Tom Boyd, Paddy McCartin, Jacob Weitering

The success rate of top 10 draft picks

See which spots inside the top 10 have delivered more than others 👇

www.zerohanger.com

Hodge and Rooey are stars, Whitfield Goddard and Weitering good to very good. The rest are very meh.

 

[lewdogs]

Nick Riewoldt, Luke Hodge, Brendon Goddard, Adam Cooney, Brett Deledio, Marc Murphy, Bryce Gibbs, Matthew Kreuzer, Jack Watts, Tom Scully, David Swallow, Jonathon Patton, Lachie Whitfield, Tom Boyd, Paddy McCartin, Jacob Weitering

The success rate of top 10 draft picks

See which spots inside the top 10 have delivered more than others 👇

www.zerohanger.com

Hodge and Rooey are stars, Whitfield Goddard and Weitering good to very good. The rest are very meh.

Not sure if you're joking with "the rest are meh" comment. Cooney won a Brownlow for one.

 

[plugger66]

Nick Riewoldt, Luke Hodge, Brendon Goddard, Adam Cooney, Brett Deledio, Marc Murphy, Bryce Gibbs, Matthew Kreuzer, Jack Watts, Tom Scully, David Swallow, Jonathon Patton, Lachie Whitfield, Tom Boyd, Paddy McCartin, Jacob Weitering

The success rate of top 10 draft picks

See which spots inside the top 10 have delivered more than others 👇

www.zerohanger.com

Hodge and Rooey are stars, Whitfield Goddard and Weitering good to very good. The rest are very meh.

Yes true but I’d say every pick has the same. Surely if it wasn’t better it would be traded every single year

 

[growly]

Sorry to intrude you have made some good appointments this off season well done and sos is ok but I wonder if the club tried to approach one of your former boys in Jason cripps and tried poaching him from port? in my opinion he is one of the best in the business.

 

[plugger66]

Sorry to intrude you have made some good appointments this off season well done and sos is ok but I wonder if the club tried to approach one of your former boys in Jason cripps and tried poaching him from port? in my opinion he is one of the best in the business.

Certain they had a chat. He like most as gringo said has had many hits and misses.

 

[sunny3193]

That's not entirely true. He came storming up the draft rankings late. He had a 50 disposal 10 goal school game starting at CHB and everyone sat up and took notice.
Because some clubs have him as a very early pick and others see him closer to No.15.

Knighmare even had him in his power rating thing.

I think Barrels is sometimes a little harsh on K/M.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Probably should have drafted hard then and started decorating the cake with ring ins once the bedrock was formed. Pretty sure the club would have pressured him to try to move quickly after being such a long time out of finals though.

As they say, overrating where your list is at is the greatest stuff-up in footy. We'd blown a rebuild but doubled down on it instead of trying to do it better a second time. A big part of our long term strategy failure has been an inability to find high end talent. Instead of hitting the draft we chased bulk GOPs from other clubs which is precisely what not to do.

I think it was clear that the senior core was rotten and it couldn't support an influx of juniors. It was also the case with the football dpt as a whole.
Unfortunately Ratts wasn't the real deal and the squad didn't progress, but that's not a black mark against the recruiting or the strategy which was also reliant on acquiring a couple of stars.
In simple terms if the recruits blossom under RTB then we'll know. If they get traded, we'll also know.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Again you’re upset about how you spent 3rd and 4th rounders on existing listed players over kids.

I’ve broken down the early picks themselves. Outside of Dow - the next hits after your misses are 5 picks away. Hard to be upset.

I’d argue a lot of your clubs issue was poor coaching

Also their culture and the place being a total shithole.

 

[Remboy]

Sorry to intrude you have made some good appointments this off season well done and sos is ok but I wonder if the club tried to approach one of your former boys in Jason cripps and tried poaching him from port? in my opinion he is one of the best in the business.

I think someone said he didn’t want to move interstate.

 

[austinnn]

I think Carlton and St Kilda probably both had boards who demanded quick results. List managers are in charge of list build strategy but also have to navigate all the internal voices who want input.

My family are Blues supporters and if they are to be believed there was a lot of dysfunctional ego driven infighting going on there. People on the board were happy to hurt the club over petty ego squabbles and white-anting. There were so many power players all wanting to run the show and the only thing that straightened you up was getting Brian Cook who had enough gravitas to pull everyone in a single direction.

The Cook effect sounds pretty familiar to the recent Lyon effect.

 

[plugger66]

I think someone said he didn’t want to move interstate.

He lives in Melbourne

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I don’t think SOS was amazing but I’m very happy with our list so I am happy with the job he done. The one thing that worried me was how he built the midfield around Cripps. Bringing in/targeting Kennedy, SPS, Setterfield and Stocker seemed very strange. Even Dow, although quick has no tank. Fisher, similar to Dow. He did seem to underestimate the importance of running power at the time. Walsh was abit of dumb luck for us and luckily turned out to be the exact type we needed.

 

[St Neil]

His role is more structural and chasing existing talent. Toce is selecting talent from the draft. He still needs to be allowed picks to use though.

If Lyon wants to get hold of a player like McKay next year it will be up to Gubby an SOS to go and sell him a vision of the Ross Lyon Saints and work out who we could let go it we took him and what value that that might get us back. Perhaps it's identifying holes in the list like a second KPF or ahigh impact small forward. The role is about working out what we need in the future and working to achieve it.

I think you’ve nailed it. I see Allan’s appointment as a clear sign that we are targeting players from other clubs to fill holes in the list and to quickly put the jigsaw pieces together.

Allan and Silvagni have worked closely together at GWS, and both are close to Lyon. Walsh has been coaxed back from retirement and he also worked closely with Allan at Collingwood. Clearly these appointments are a result of both the findings of the review and the appointment of Lyon as coach, especially with Hayes, Goddard and Misson coming back to the club.

All these guys are high achievers. Strong personalities. Canny and ruthless operators. The question is whether the mix of personalities and egos will gel. Many have a history of working well together which is a good sign.

Personally, I like it. The football department has some serious firepower now. At all levels. No club would have more experience or depth of knowledge than ours right now.

The President has ruthlessly turned things upside down since the mid season bye. The man is fair dinkum about getting us our second flag. I’m all in with these appointments and I (along with almost everyone else) was demanding action when things were falling apart with Ratten. Bassat has delivered. It’s exciting.

Just one caution, give it a few years to succeed. It may not all happen immediately.

 

[gringo2011]

Not sure if you're joking with "the rest are meh" comment. Cooney won a Brownlow for one.

Cooney was an ordinary player still (he had a degenerative knee so maybe an excuse). Woewodin won a Brownlow too. There are some Brownlows that are worth more than others.

I'd have peak Delidio as a much better player than him.

 

[gringo2011]

I think it was clear that the senior core was rotten and it couldn't support an influx of juniors. It was also the case with the football dpt as a whole.
Unfortunately Ratts wasn't the real deal and the squad didn't progress, but that's not a black mark against the recruiting or the strategy which was also reliant on acquiring a couple of stars.
In simple terms if the recruits blossom under RTB then we'll know. If they get traded, we'll also know.

I think the recruiting has been pretty good for about 6 years or so. It's amazing how many list changes happen at most club over that period. If Hunter Clark and Coffield cement best 22 spots and Bytel can be serious depth, then we need to reassess that draft.

From the 2017 list that we recruited Hunter and Coff to, we have lost- Hickey, Carlisle, Steven, Savage, Dunny, Acres, Freezer, Montagna, Rooey, Lonie, Geary, Newnes, Roberton, Longer, Gilbert, Armo, Long, Brown, Goddard, Dempster, Stevens, Bruce, Phillips, White, Paddy Mc, O'Kearney, Wright, Rice, Couglan, Joyce, Connellan, Minch, Pierce, Weller and Holmes.

That was a real end of an era list and we just hadn't been able to replace the good players with the same quality before they finished up. I don't rate Lethlean but him coming in was at least a very active attempt to overhaul the list quickly while staying mid table. I think we now have enough talent on the list to play finals and a coaching and footy department set up that will train a standard and a structure that won't hold us back.

I would personally have dropped back a bit to go forward but that's just me. Melbourne and Carlton have more stars because they dropped low on the ladder for an extended period and drafted well with their high picks.

 

[plugger66]

Cooney was an ordinary player still (he had a degenerative knee so maybe an excuse). Woewodin won a Brownlow too. There are some Brownlows that are worth more than others.

I'd have peak Delidio as a much better player than him.

Bloody harsh. For about 6 years he was getting a lot of the ball and was a goal kicking mid. Just because you rate Delidio better surely doesn’t make Cooney an ordinary player. Had great pace and broke the lines.

 

[plugger66]

I think the recruiting has been pretty good for about 6 years or so. It's amazing how many list changes happen at most club over that period. If Hunter Clark and Coffield cement best 22 spots and Bytel can be serious depth, then we need to reassess that draft.

From the 2017 list that we recruited Hunter and Coff to, we have lost- Hickey, Carlisle, Steven, Savage, Dunny, Acres, Freezer, Montagna, Rooey, Lonie, Geary, Newnes, Roberton, Longer, Gilbert, Armo, Long, Brown, Goddard, Dempster, Stevens, Bruce, Phillips, White, Paddy Mc, O'Kearney, Wright, Rice, Couglan, Joyce, Connellan, Minch, Pierce, Weller and Holmes.

That was a real end of an era list and we just hadn't been able to replace the good players with the same quality before they finished up. I don't rate Lethlean but him coming in was at least a very active attempt to overhaul the list quickly while staying mid table. I think we now have enough talent on the list to play finals and a coaching and footy department set up that will train a standard and a structure that won't hold us back.

I would personally have dropped back a bit to go forward but that's just me. Melbourne and Carlton have more stars because they dropped low on the ladder for an extended period and drafted well with their high picks.

Both clubs also failed by dropping back. There is simply no right or wrong way to do it. You just need 2 very good drafts in a row. Hopefully last year was the first and this year the second. Last year looks good but obviously too early to say but we did that without dropping down. Tge best picks are from 10 down obviously but there is usually a star or two in most drafts after pick 10. A lot of luck needed but it can happen. Anyway I see us just holding our spot this year. We start with so many 50/50 games and at the moment the list looks depleted because of injury and with a fair few missing a lot of pre season.