Saints News Saints appoint list management team

[stavro#4]

It maybe the easiest and he is the recruiting guys boss but it’s not really the reality. The list manager cannot see these guys play enough to make an informed decision. What he certainly should do is telling the recruiting guys the type needed and if a recruiter says we need more picks then that is the list managers responsibility. They must work completely together. If for example toce had two poor drafts with 2 different list managers then surely the problem is toce not the new list manager.

But ultimately. It is his list.

Which means he takes responsibility

 

[gringo2011]

The only pick we really lost was hills. The others were not high picks or the deals were pretty good for us. Why would you trust drafting as the way to go anyway. We haven’t actually stared at that. And not only did the club probably overrate the list the club had to be seen to be doing something for the supporters. And it depends what you call a gop. Hill won a best and fairest and was a 3 time premiership play. Hanners had a fantastic record. Crouch had been a very good player for a while. Ryder was a short term fix that was a clear winner and Howard was vital to our structure and certainly still is.

I think that the top end of drafts is where most of the top talent comes from. Occasionally you get lucky with a Dangerfield or a Neale but most small clubs have to draft their own. Hanners was gone and a salary dump from Sydney. Howard was a good pick up but cost a lot of capital. Crouch was a FA so no issues there.

Ryder was a stop gap but also cost development for others who might be a year more advanced or already moved on. The players we took are irrelevant anyway. I think it's been shown that we overestimated how close we were and loaded up when we probably should have drafted for a couple more years.

Hopefully this time Lyon can get the most out of what we have and we can have a bit fo a run of finals footy regardless. The players we did draft look a step up from what we were getting in the last failed rebuild.

 

[Plugger35]

Not all that surprising that SOS has ended up back at St Kilda with him being good mates with Ross, whether or not he does a good job as list manager remains to be seen but at least he should have a good working relationship with Ross like all of our assistant coaches due to working with him before.

He was also at St Kilda during one of our most successful eras, albeit in a different role back then. I know his role now isn't as an assistant coach but it still doesn't hurt to have the Team of the Century fullback at the club to pass on some tips to our key defenders.

 

[gringo2011]

i believe ultimately pick or trade - the list manager is responsible.

its the easiest way to argue success or failure.

Sort of, I reckon Trout might have cost a couple of people dearly then.

 

[gringo2011]

Not all that surprising that SOS has ended up back at St Kilda with him being good mates with Ross, whether or not he does a good job as list manager remains to be seen but at least he should have a good working relationship with Ross like our assistant coaches due to working with him before.

He was also at St Kilda during one of our most successful eras, albeit in a different role back then. I know his role now isn't as an assistant coach but it still doesn't hurt to have the Team of the Century fullback at the club to pass on some tips to our key defenders.

Ross Lyon was possibly held back from winning a premiership by a few poor list management calls. Lovett and Luke Ball probably cost him a flag. Perhaps he was held back by the people we had in place at the time and having a trusted lieutenant in the role gives him more faith in the club's system.

 

[gringo2011]

2018 job description for Gallaghers position which it now appears to require two people (old mates?) to do the same role.

And funnily enough, both of whom have been in List Management roles at clubs who have ended up with significant salary cap issues.

Allan has a reputation for getting the players that his clubs target, he's super experienced. SOS is super experienced at multiple clubs too. Perhaps they compliment the areas that the other lacks. I'd rather go down spending up big on experienced operators in the important roles. We cheaped out for years and went nowhere.

 

[stavro#4]

Sort of, I reckon Trout might have cost a couple of people dearly then.

That and an underfunded football department.

What I’m confident of regarding us is that we have enough elder statesmen in Lyon Walsh Gubby & SOS - that it won’t turn into one person having it their entire way.

There are a lot of big football people there who are signing these things off going forward.

I.e sos can’t just say the vision is to win a flag via a full rebuild. Nobody would support that.

He might say we need more first rounders - let’s trade some talent and RTB Gubbby and Walsh might agree.

 

[pebblesofsand]

What salary cap issues have Carlton had under SOS?

I was thinking GWS and Collingwood.

 

[sunny3193]

After thinking about this appointment anything that gets jo Bailey around the club can only be a positive.

She’s too old for you now.

 

[sunny3193]

So:
SOS reports to Gubby, who does Gubby report to?
Who is responsible for the list?
SOS, the List Manager?
Or his boss, Gubby, the National Talent Manager?

 

[saintmike65]

Gee, we have a lot of good football ppl at this club now, in theory a highly competent off field team.

Coaches:

• Ross Lyon (new)
• Corey Enright (2022 start)
• Lenny Hayes (new)
• Robert Harvey (new)

Dev Coaches:

• Damian Carroll (2022 start)
• Jake Batchelor
• Brendan Goddard (new)

Performance and Conditioning:

• Nick Walsh (2022 start)

List Management:

• Graeme Allan (new role)
• Stephen Silvangni (new)
• Chris Toce (new role in 2022)
• Jarryd Roughead (new role)

Football Program Management:

• Geoff Walsh (new)
• Simon Lethlean (new role)
• David Rath

Club:

• Andrew Bassat

Missing anyone?

Yet to be seen how functional this group will be but I sure as hell am feeling better and like we have more direction as a club pursuing high standards, than at the end of last season.

Dave Misson!!

 

[saintmike65]

For all the external criticism of SOS he does several things very well. Great negotiator at the trade table and creative. Great at salary cap management. Great at strategically building a list with the right types of players in the right age profiles.

What he isnt good at is talent selection. If his new role leaves that to others and lets him play to his strengths he will be a good get.

Talent selection will be Chris Toce, who nailed his first draft!!

 

[plugger66]

As

But ultimately. It is his list.

Which means he takes responsibility

yes but people who are in charge of that person would be way smarter than just thinking that and would take everything into account.

 

[plugger66]

I think that the top end of drafts is where most of the top talent comes from. Occasionally you get lucky with a Dangerfield or a Neale but most small clubs have to draft their own. Hanners was gone and a salary dump from Sydney. Howard was a good pick up but cost a lot of capital. Crouch was a FA so no issues there.

Ryder was a stop gap but also cost development for others who might be a year more advanced or already moved on. The players we took are irrelevant anyway. I think it's been shown that we overestimated how close we were and loaded up when we probably should have drafted for a couple more years.

Hopefully this time Lyon can get the most out of what we have and we can have a bit fo a run of finals footy regardless. The players we did draft look a step up from what we were getting in the last failed rebuild.

Roo is irrelevant now. So is hayes. It’s complete hindsight to say it was the wrong decision. What did we lose for Howard? Wasn’t Higgins part of it? Obviously the higher picks get the best players and that’s why I said hill is the big one but he was the perfect type with a bloody good record. Forget what he done with us.

 

[plugger66]

So:
SOS reports to Gubby, who does Gubby report to?
Who is responsible for the list?
SOS, the List Manager?
Or his boss, Gubby, the National Talent Manager?

Great point.

 

[gringo2011]

Roo is irrelevant now. So is hayes. It’s complete hindsight to say it was the wrong decision. What did we lose for Howard? Wasn’t Higgins part of it? Obviously the higher picks get the best players and that’s why I said hill is the big one but he was the perfect type with a bloody good record. Forget what he done with us.

We gave 2 first round picks (pick 12 and 18) and a future third rounder for pick 10, Howard and Ryder. Then sent pick 10, Acres, pick 58 and a future second and fourth round pick to Freo for Hill.

Snags was a swap of first round picks with Richmond and a future second round pick.

 

[pebblesofsand]

So:
SOS reports to Gubby, who does Gubby report to?
Who is responsible for the list?
SOS, the List Manager?
Or his boss, Gubby, the National Talent Manager?

Looks like Gubby will report to Walsh (General Manager Football) and should be ultimately responsible for list management/recruiting decisions.

Like everything it will be decision by committee but Allan should carry the can unless he is overuled by the Exec.

Toce - recruiting

SOS - list management, strategy.

So as far as I can see, parts of Gallaghers job including overall responsibility has now gone Allan, the balance of Gallaghers job (salary cap, strategy etc etc) SOS will do and Toce job should remain the same.

 

[sunny3193]

Looks like Gubby will report to Walsh (General Manager Football) and should be ultimately responsible for list management/recruiting decisions.

Like everything it will be decision by committee but Allan should carry the can unless he is overuled by the Exec.

Toce - recruiting

SOS - list management, strategy.

So as far as I can see, parts of Gallaghers job including overall responsibility has now gone Allan, the balance of Gallaghers job (salary cap etc) SOS will do and Toce job should remain the same.

 

[PrinceCharles]

I thought we just gave him a polo and pretended like he was doing something important.

Heard it went down something similar to this actually

Well this sent me down a rabbit hole, thank you.

 

[PrinceCharles]

Hits: Weitering Curnow Mckay Walsh Fisher Jsos TDK Kennedy
Misses: SPS Dow Obrien Stocker Mcgovern


it doesnt look too bad.

broad view, bolded are stars of the game.

the misses are high picks - but upon review.

simpkin best player taken after SPS - 6 picks later

View attachment 1594663

Dow hurts as LDU is a stud. Obrien not so much. Bailey was 5 picks later.
View attachment 1594667

stocker pick only bad because of what you gave up. Absolutely nothing missed out on after him

View attachment 1594671

Kemp could be on the bust list. I was high on him - injuries havent helped. 2 after him are guns though.

View attachment 1594672

Palmer
O'Shea
Bugg
Shaw
Lobbe
Sumner
Kerridge
Lamb
Sumner
Phillips
Lang
Mullett
Smedts
SPS
Dow
McGovern
Gorringe
Fasolo
Stocker
Setterfield

+ Low balling Tuohy to get Marchbank in.

 

[plugger66]

We gave 2 first round picks (pick 12 and 18) and a future third rounder for pick 10, Howard and Ryder. Then sent pick 10, Acres, pick 58 and a future second and fourth round pick to Freo for Hill.

Snags was a swap of first round picks with Richmond and a future second round pick.l Still think Howard was a needed and good pick up. Seems good deal. What we did with that pick is separate.

Still think the deal seems ok. We needed Howard and we still need him.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Looks like like some get the set up ... others not so much

SOS taking on a more defined (smaller) role than what he did at the Scum where he was General Manager of List & Recruitment Dept

Experience Experience Experience ...... and most of the GWS players he recruited are now past their prime so no issues about him trying to bring in his GWS offloads ... or his sons for that matter

 

[sammm]

2018 job description for Gallaghers position which it now appears to require two people (old mates?) to do the same role.

And funnily enough, both of whom have been in List Management roles at clubs who have ended up with significant salary cap issues.

According to a Carlton supporter who came on here, SOS fixed their salary cap.

 

[sammm]

2018 job description for Gallaghers position which it now appears to require two people (old mates?) to do the same role.

And funnily enough, both of whom have been in List Management roles at clubs who have ended up with significant salary cap issues.

Gubby was already doing the job but without the title.

 

[stavro#4]

Palmer
O'Shea
Bugg
Shaw
Lobbe
Sumner
Kerridge
Lamb
Sumner
Phillips
Lang
Mullett
Smedts
SPS
Dow
McGovern
Gorringe
Fasolo
Stocker
Setterfield

+ Low balling Tuohy to get Marchbank in.

All those players bar Stocker Dow sps and McGovern came during the height of your rebuild were he traded 3rd/4th rounders for punts to beef the list up in hope you might find a player whilst rebuilding.