Should Sydney and GWS be allowed academies in strong footballing communities?

[mcs095]

If you look at Geelong’s list they have more players drafted via the Geelong Falcons than the Swans do via the Swans academy.

Probably time the Geelong nursery was opened up.

There have been more players drafted from the Geelong Falcons, which covers one tiny area of Victoria than the NSW/ACT Rams.

If they want free for all for Northern States, about time its free for all across everywhere. I'm sure Victorian clubs will gladly allow that to access all that hidden elite talent the Northern Clubs keep hiding away through their academies year in, year out.

 

[sr36]

Because the NGA academy settings were actually akin to creating a genuine rort. Where clubs would be able to have exclusive access to particular players not because the NGA academy actually did anything to aid their development, but because steps were taken to get already developing players with promise (i.e. those with genuine other pathways into the game) into the academy system so they could claim them as their own. Effectively the same rort of the zones setup for a long time.


I'm not against the NGA academy idea concept at all. But if there is a want for the same settings, then it should have to operate in exactly the same way the Northern Academies do. I.e. its not just a nice way to hoover up talent from other pathways. That of course doesn't apply for all NGA academy areas - but it certainly has happened in some of them.

Good point. I don't really know how the academies function differently, but I do get the impression that the NGA academy's (particularly in metro settings) aren't really academies, they're just lists of eligible blokes playing in local comps.

 

[sr36]

There have been more players drafted from the Geelong Falcons, which covers one tiny area of Victoria than the NSW/ACT Rams.

If they want free for all for Northern States, about time its free for all across everywhere. I'm sure Victorian clubs will gladly allow that to access all that hidden elite talent the Northern Clubs keep hiding away through their academies year in, year out.

Can you give me an example of a Geelong Falcon that's been hidden away. No doubt they're working the kids in order to get them back if they want them, but they're initially going in the open draft. I can't see much evidence of hiding.

I think they need to change the rules regarding uncontacted players, so you don't have to trade them for well unders if they're seeking out, but that's a different story.

 

[mcs095]

Good point. I don't really know how the academies function differently, but I do get the impression that the NGA academy's (particularly in metro settings) aren't really academies, they're just lists of eligible blokes playing in local comps.

I suspect they are gradually morphing towards being much more like the Northern Academies model (I haven't been that closely involved in that space for a couple of years now) - but certainly in the first phase of them they weren't anything like them, and initial tightening of rules was because they were too 'loose' and open to manipulation.

I am sure it is changing, and I'm not against a closer alignment of requirements over time as they adopt a similar basis - which is probably a case of Northern Academies rules merging towards the NGA rules, not the other way around. But I don't think we are anywhere near that yet.

Can you give me an example of a Geelong Falcon that's been hidden away. No doubt they're working the kids in order to get them back if they want them, but they're initially going in the open draft. I can't see much evidence of hiding.

I think they need to change the rules regarding uncontacted players, so you don't have to trade them for well unders if they're seeking out, but that's a different story.

You missed my point completely. Where did I suggest the Falcons were 'hiding talent'?

I was simply making the comparison to highlight the differences in the 'talent pools' in question in response to the earlier comment. i.e. the NSW/ACT RAMS areas covers a massive land mass and a very large population, yet has produced less elite talent than a relatively small part of Victoria. There are a myriad of reasons for it - but it highlights the low base being worked from in NSW, let alone QLD which has an even shorter period of having a professional club based out of it.

The reference to hiding talent is this suggestion by some that the Northern Academies are just some giant scheme to take in elite talent already there and claim it as 'academy' talent. Keep hearing on this thread that its a rort and all Victorian clubs should be able to set up NSW academies etc - which is nothing but nonsense. Wasn't a reflection on the Geelong Falcons setup at all or what actions undertaken down that way.

We all know they keep the rules bending for the well matured players they want to attract, not the youngsters

 

[sr36]

I suspect they are gradually morphing towards being much more like the Northern Academies model (I haven't been that closely involved in that space for a couple of years now) - but certainly in the first phase of them they weren't anything like them, and initial tightening of rules was because they were too 'loose' and open to manipulation.

I am sure it is changing, and I'm not against a closer alignment of requirements over time as they adopt a similar basis - which is probably a case of Northern Academies rules merging towards the NGA rules, not the other way around. But I don't think we are anywhere near that yet.

First few years, of course it was a case of lucky opportunity. They made players draft eligible too soon after the academies began. Pies got lucky with Quaynor, North ended up getting unlucky with Thomas. But it doesn't really matter. It still would have helped to grow the game. It's that lucky grow the game tax that Sydney got with Blakey, Brisbane got with Keays, etc. Not exactly academy converts, but eligible.

 

[1990crow]

If that was reversed they would demand an investigation.

They did. In 2007. And the AFL hid the findings and recommendations.
Coincidence?

 

[sr36]

I was simply making the comparison to highlight the differences in the 'talent pools' in question in response to the earlier comment. i.e. the NSW/ACT RAMS areas covers a massive land mass and a very large population, yet has produced less elite talent than a relatively small part of Victoria.

The comparison that I made earlier calling the Sydney zones a larger talent pool was in comparison to NGA eligible players in an NGA zone. I wasn't suggesting Sydney's population meant they had a bigger talent pool than the Vic open draft U18 system. Of course they dont. But they do have a bigger pool that produces more AFL footballers than any of the NGA zones

 

[mcs095]

First few years, of course it was a case of lucky opportunity. They made players draft eligible too soon after the academies began. Pies got lucky with Quaynor, North ended up getting unlucky with Thomas. But it doesn't really matter. It still would have helped to grow the game. It's that lucky grow the game tax that Sydney got with Blakey, Brisbane got with Keays, etc. Not exactly academy converts, but eligible.

Not having a go about it at all - was always going to happen. But it is my understanding (and happy to be corrected if someone has more detailed knowledge) that there were clear trends of teams taking proactive steps to effectively exploit that weakness going forward (i.e. taking deliberate steps to result in those outcomes) that was part of the rationale for tightening down on the system.

The comparison that I made earlier calling the Sydney zones a larger talent pool was in comparison to NGA eligible players in an NGA zone. I wasn't suggesting Sydney's population meant they had a bigger talent pool than the Vic open draft U18 system. Of course they dont. But they do have a bigger pool that produces more AFL footballers than any of the NGA zones

Just to be clear, it wasn't your comments I was referring back to as such - it was some of the more outrageous posts earlier in the thread not solely limited to NGA zones.

 

[sr36]

Not having a go about it at all - was always going to happen. But it is my understanding (and happy to be corrected if someone has more detailed knowledge) that there were clear trends of teams taking proactive steps to effectively exploit that weakness going forward (i.e. taking deliberate steps to result in those outcomes) that was part of the rationale for tightening down on the system.


Just to be clear, it wasn't your comments I was referring back to as such - it was some of the more outrageous posts earlier in the thread not solely limited to NGA zones.

My understanding is that Vic clubs whinged about Northern academy rights, AFL gave them NGA academies. Some clubs got lucky with guys like Juh and Quaynor without actually developing them. Vic clubs whinged about that. AFL reduced the draft concession . Vic clubs will now whinge again Northern Academies.

I do think the academies are a leg up, so I'm joining the whinging. I shouldn't complain though, the father son lucky leg up has us back up the ladder.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Any homesick players we can target?

No? bugger

 

[Elixuh]

My understanding is that Vic clubs whinged about Northern academy rights, AFL gave them NGA academies. Some clubs got lucky with guys like Juh and Quaynor without actually developing them. Vic clubs whinged about that. AFL reduced the draft concession . Vic clubs will now whinge again Northern Academies.

I do think the academies are a leg up, so I'm joining the whinging. I shouldn't complain though, the father son lucky leg up has us back up the ladder.

The academies are only an unpalatable leg up if you look at them in isolation on draft night, which is what 99% of people who are complaining about them do. They just see oh player X was drafted by Sydney as an academy player, why do they have something tangible that we don't. If people actually looked at it objectively they'd recognise why its necessary for the comp. Especially if we are looking to introduce another 2 teams and further dilute the talent pool.

 

[GeTrain]

The academies are only an unpalatable leg up if you look at them in isolation on draft night, which is what 99% of people who are complaining about them do. They just see oh player X was drafted by Sydney as an academy player, why do they have something tangible that we don't. If people actually looked at it objectively they'd recognise why its necessary for the comp. Especially if we are looking to introduce another 2 teams and further dilute the talent pool.

My main issue with academies (and probably a bigger issue with father/son) is the bidding system. Not having a go at Brisbane here, they worked the system beautifully so all the credit to them, but what happened with Ashcroft (also Daicos and Darcy the year prior) where the teams were free to trade out the first round pick and bundle up a handful of picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds really exposes how bs the system is. IMO if you're matching a bid on a player, forget about the points and instead make it that you need to use a draft pick in that round.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

if we want the AFL to be a national comp, we must have strong NSW and Qld sides

if clubs don't like it, go back to the VFL, WFL or SANFL

We can have strong NSW and Qld sides without destroying the integrity of the competition. Or do you think by "strong" NSW and Qld sides it means they should not be allowed to miss finals for consecutive seasons?

 

[1990crow]

We can have strong NSW and Qld sides without destroying the integrity of the competition. Or do you think by "strong" NSW and Qld sides it means they should not be allowed to miss finals for consecutive seasons?

If you want integrity cancel the grand final contract and tighten salary cap payments from third parties.
Clubs in Victoria are abusing this.

 

[HairyO]

Given the continued success of Sydney off the back of the development of a vast quantity of top end academy picks, as well as GWS feeding off this despite significant exodus of players, the question simply is should GWS and Sydney be given such strong regions that are already compromised of established AFL gun kids, or should they be removed and given similar zonings to all the other clubs in developing areas?

One way to counter GCS trade "strategies" which include giving an average young player and Pick 7 for a Future 4th.

Not every club gets to do what Geelong does, often.

Apparently we have another Jiath in our academy so I like them... for now.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

If you want integrity cancel the grand final contract and tighten salary cap payments from third parties.
Clubs in Victoria are abusing this.

I agree the salary cap should be strict but I don't think it's only the Vic clubs that abuse this. 3rd party deals, ambassador deals etc should all be included.

 

[1990crow]

One way to counter GCS trade "strategies" which include giving an average young player and Pick 7 for a Future 4th.

Not every club gets to do what Geelong does, often.

Apparently we have another Jiath in our academy so I like them... for now.

This is the thing. Vic sides can't whinge fairness when the AFL let's them do that kind of rubbish.
Adelaide tried something similar in 2020 to get tier one free agency compensation for Brad Crouch but got denied.
Where's the consistency?

Fix that then let's talk northern academies.

 

[1990crow]

I agree the salary cap should be strict but I don't think it's only the Vic clubs that abuse this. 3rd party deals, ambassador deals etc should all be included.

All clubs do it but you'd have to be naive to think Victorian sides don't have an advantage with all their media opportunities.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Yep, sounds good. What are your ideas for addressing all the massive advantages that Victorian teams have over us once the academies are gone?

Relocate to South Melbourne?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

All clubs do it but you'd have to be naive to think Victorian sides don't have an advantage with all their media opportunities.

Sure but then there are 10 teams in a saturated market vs 2 in other states. Perhaps some Vic teams benefit more than others but all in all I agree with you, players shouldn't receive 3rd party deals outside the cap.

 

[Kwality]

Because the NGA academy settings were actually akin to creating a genuine rort. Where clubs would be able to have exclusive access to particular players not because the NGA academy actually did anything to aid their development, but because steps were taken to get already developing players with promise (i.e. those with genuine other pathways into the game) into the academy system so they could claim them as their own. Effectively the same rort of the zones setup for a long time.


I'm not against the NGA academy idea concept at all. But if there is a want for the same settings, then it should have to operate in exactly the same way the Northern Academies do. I.e. its not just a nice way to hoover up talent from other pathways. That of course doesn't apply for all NGA academy areas - but it certainly has happened in some of them.

The NGA academies are about identifying the elite, not growing the game.

 

[Kwality]

Just to be clear, it wasn't your comments I was referring back to as such - it was some of the more outrageous posts earlier in the thread not solely limited to NGA zones.

See Halls Creek in the Kimberley

There’s something in the water in Halls Creek

Halls Creek, a town of less than 100 people in outback Western Australia, is developing a strong reputation for producing AFL and AFLW talent.

www.aflplayers.com.au

 

[Power Raid]

We can have strong NSW and Qld sides without destroying the integrity of the competition. Or do you think by "strong" NSW and Qld sides it means they should not be allowed to miss finals for consecutive seasons?

you can't have "integrity" of the game if there are rules put in place with the specific purpose of delivering outcomes. We have many examples of this already.

the AFL has chosen to become a national sport for a good business reason and it will take 40 years to cement the foundations of any new club in these markets and 60-80 years to become self-sustaining.

Sydney has arguably been slightly too successful in the last two decades but certainly not in their beginning and that was a costly mistake. The Lions were down and out too long after their 3-peat.

The one that worries me the most is the Suns and that is indictment against the AFL. This club is moving into the "beyond" repair, given the brand damage and lack of support. The Giants have had a better history but the AFL has to invest heavily into these two clubs on and off the field. These two clubs need to be in the top 10 more often than not (9/10) with regular finals appearances (more than half).

 

[geelong_crazy26]

There have been more players drafted from the Geelong Falcons, which covers one tiny area of Victoria than the NSW/ACT Rams.

If they want free for all for Northern States, about time its free for all across everywhere. I'm sure Victorian clubs will gladly allow that to access all that hidden elite talent the Northern Clubs keep hiding away through their academies year in, year out.

Here come the tinfoil hats again… name for me one thing that is accessible to a Vic club that isn’t accessible to Sydney?? Sydney have things that are only exclusive to them, none the other way around.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

My understanding is that Vic clubs whinged about Northern academy rights, AFL gave them NGA academies. Some clubs got lucky with guys like Juh and Quaynor without actually developing them. Vic clubs whinged about that. AFL reduced the draft concession . Vic clubs will now whinge again Northern Academies.

I do think the academies are a leg up, so I'm joining the whinging. I shouldn't complain though, the father son lucky leg up has us back up the ladder.

F/S is a lucky bingo draw and is available for all including Sydney who have been around long enough for their players to do the work in the bedroom. Despite on average most clubs having an plush F/S once every decade or so.

Academies are exclusive leg ups only for Sydney/GWS only that produce constant top ten picks and first-second rounders.