Strikeforce and M-1 Global: Fedor vs. Werdum

[likka]

I thought Strikeforce offered Fedor more money?

Wrong.

Less money but M-1 co-promotion rights were mandatory. This fight nearly didn't happen as Fedor's first fight against Rogers didn't have M-1 in the show title.

Dana would not soil his brand with this Russian mafia creation thus the deal was never going to happen, despite the huge amounts of money thrown at Fedor.

 

[the_interloper]

Wrong.

Less money but M-1 co-promotion rights were mandatory. This fight nearly didn't happen as Fedor's first fight against Rogers didn't have M-1 in the show title.

Dana would not soil his brand with this Russian mafia creation thus the deal was never going to happen, despite the huge amounts of money thrown at Fedor.

Yep this. I can understand Dana not wanting to share with M1 given he built the UFC name up by himself, and the terms of Fedor's management deal dictates co promotion as you say. I think its a case of Fedor not needing the UFC and the UFC not needing Fedor, all of a sudden the UFC heavyweight division has become pretty stacked.

 

[Arecsa]

...all of a sudden the UFC heavyweight division has become pretty stacked.

I'd still like to see Fedor in there, Overeem too. But it's a nice change from the old days of the UFC heavyweight division where it was an absolute joke compared to the Pride one. Cro-Cop, Mino, Fedor all in their prime while Tim Sylvia was fighting bums like Gan McGee.

 

[Gravel]

I think some are getting a little carried away over 1 loss. Fedor made mistakes and the Werdum game plan looked to be executed to perfection. Yes, a reality check for the Fedor Fan Boys but not beaten into retirement as some of the Fedor haters have suggested.
How would he go against the top 5 UFC heavyweights -I just hope to see him in UFC at some stage so we can find out.

 

[Vendrell]

Kenny Florian makes some good points.

Fedor is all class & will be back. He is an amazing athlete. He needs to update his training. If he does this, he will be back on top. Fedor is still the greatest heavyweight of all time, but the sport is so new & changing so fast. So easy to get left behind in MMA. No such thing as "just got caught." It was a technical error. He didn't slip & fall into the triangle. Got caught (twice).

http://twitter.com/kenny_florian

Even though Kenny picked Fedor on MMA Live, he said Werdum was a massive chance if he got the fight to the ground. Kenny just wasn't sure Werdum could get it there in the first place.

What we see with fighters from Europe and Asia coming to the US is that the level of professionalism and preparation is so far ahead of everyone else, particularly UFC fighters. They have superior strength and conditioning, nutrition practices and train in a wide variety of disciplines all the time. They've got specialist coaches for everything and even work with psychologists.

Look at Shogun, Akiyama, Mousasi and Aoki as examples of top fighters that received a massive shock when fighting in the US for the first time. Mousasi trained with GSP before his King Mo fight and he was blown away by what GSP does to prepare.

Fedor even admitted to not training in the cage before his fight with Rogers. As great as Fedor is, that's just ridiculous. I'm sure Fedor will come back stronger but I think he needs to assess where he is in terms of training and preparation. The mystique of training in a shitty gym in the backwoods of Russia is an incredible story but realistically he could be greater.

 

[Magnum]

Only just checked BF today... my thoughts.

Again, huge upset! I kinda had a wierd "feeling" about the fight. When Fedor came into the cage I just saw an upset brewing. Props to Werdum, did an awesome job, I've always thought he was a sleeper. Before getting KO'd by JDS (when he was fat, over 250lbs and obviously took the unknown JDS lightly) I thought Werdum would get a title shot in the UFC by the end of 2009. The dude is legit and was fairly underated going into the fight with Fedor - granted on paper it was a bad match up for Werdum, but this is MMA

What happened on the weekend, well it eventually happens to everyone if they fight long enough. Fedor made a big tactical error chasing Werdum in his guard. Werdum is one of the best grapplers in the world, not just in MMA, so Fedor I think got a little excited and went to the kill, which was a bad move.

Everyone is eventually defeated, even the best so props to Werdum. It's MMA, that's part of what makes it great.

As for all the Fedor is overrated talk, well people can say what they want. Seeing I've followed the sport, both UFC, Pride and others since the mid 90's I can say Fedor's been the greatest fighter ever in MMA I've ever seen. He may or may not be the current best fighter going round, but his career and his abilities as a total package are unmatched for mine. GSP would be the closest besides him. That's just my personal opinion though. His dominance during the last decade cannot be rewritten by UFC selective historical revisionism or just because there are a zillion new fans who's only ever seen the UFC and Zuffa's brand of MMA. Unless you saw Fedor during his reign in the mid 2000's and know the context of his fights, it's pretty hard to grasp his dominance. You cant truly understand it by looking at highlight packages or looking at fightfinder.

I don't suck the teet of the UFC hype machine, I'm old enough and experienced enough in watching MMA to see quality/flaws and realistically assess a fighter on their merits. I'm not a blind Fedor loyalist either, I can see times where he's been a bit lucky or had to rely on his experience to gut it through, and I can see the time in between Mirko and Tim Sylvia were some pretty terrible opponents. But many great fighters have also had weak comp at times. Anderson Silva has had some pretty iffy competition, Sonnen is probably his first decent test since Hendo, the rest were tailor made matchups for his counter punching/dancing antics.

But yes, MMA is changing, maybe Fedor is starting to slow down, ala Wand/Chuck and everyone else who've given over a decade of their blood sweat and tears to entertain us fans. Maybe everyone's catching up? Maybe he'll be back to his best next fight? Who knows, Regardless of who takes his place at number one, the dudes the greatest of all time, thus far at least. Even for the "UFC only" fans, you still gotta respect the man if you are a fan of MMA.

In the end, as much as I hoped to see Overeem/Fedor and wanted to see Fedor prevail, it was cool to watch him lose, just to see history being made.

My thoughts, feel free to debate me.

 

[Magnum]

Fedor will never fight in the UFC.

Clearly he does not want to fight the best. Dana offerred him more money than any UFC fighter in the history of the UFC and he took strikeforces deal which was worth hundeds of thousands less.

so lets look at it

UFC: More money, better competition

Strikeforce: Less money, lower competition

IMHO if Fedor was ever going to fight witht he UFC he would of done it already.

See this whole post is a load of bullshit. For one Fedor gets a cut of revenue from every M1 show that is co-promoted with Strikeforce. As part of Fedor’s 6-fight contract with M1, he was granted a 10% ownership of the company, he makes a lot of income from this, likely a lot more than his fight purse.

The main thing to take from this is the CONTRACT that M1 have with Fedor.
He has 2 (now 1) fight left which he MUST fulfil.

Even if Fedor wanted to go to the UFC, he could not without M1’s approval – that approval was a joint-venture with the UFC (co-promotion) which obviously the UFC would not do. If Fedor just up and walked over to the UFC, breaking his contract to M1, he’d be balls deep in lawsuits faster than you can say “Randy Couture”.

You reckon Brock Lensar would just be able to up and leave his UFC contract if he wanted to fight Fedor in Strikeforce? Hell no! How much does Brock mean to the UFC? A lot eh!?

Well multiply that by 50 and that’s how much Mr Emelianenko means to M1 and their future business plans. He is THE KEY to their business. Without him, they are pretty much dead in the water. So again, if you think Fedor has the CHOICE to fight in the UFC but doesn’t you have rocks in your head. And if you try to twist the situation in an attempt to insinuate Fedor is some kind of coward, than you are either pathetic or an idiot who has no idea about the issues involved in this.

 

[Deej]

But yes, MMA is changing, maybe Fedor is starting to slow down, ala Wand/Chuck and everyone else who've given over a decade of their blood sweat and tears to entertain us fans. Maybe everyone's catching up? Maybe he'll be back to his best next fight? Who knows, Regardless of who takes his place at number one, the dudes the greatest of all time, thus far at least. Even for the "UFC only" fans, you still gotta respect the man if you are a fan of MMA.

In the end, as much as I hoped to see Overeem/Fedor and wanted to see Fedor prevail, it was cool to watch him lose, just to see history being made.

My thoughts, feel free to debate me.

This result does nothing to disprove my ramblings for years that pride fighters were generally overrated. Shogun saved face for that whole generation of fighters but even he had his problems, which I know people blame on injuries but in my opinion that's just feeding the whole pro-pride theory too. I think he just struggled, and even now I'm about as sold on his greatness as I am Machidas or Rampage or Evans when they were champ. It's all so even, the claimed gulf between pride and ufc was only a claim, Wand was never so much better than Chuck like the pride brigade said he was. Gomi was never best in the world. Great fighters sure but it's the rating of them so much better than anything in the UFC that was wrong.

But you know, it still happens! Aoki is not anywhere near BJ yet until recently people - LOTS of people - were rating him higher? Madness.

In fact don't even think this thinking was a pride/ufc thing, or japan/usa, I think it's just anti-UFC - examples Aoki, Cro Cop, Wand, Gomi, even now Overeem, Rogers (I mean what the hell has this bloke done to be rated top 10???), what have they done to warrant their lofty ratings? Overeem got knocked out by Liddell who has he really fought in MMA recently of any relevence? Same with Fedor....his opponents are a whos who of cans. Sylvia was on a downhill spiral by the time Fedor faced him. Arlovski yeah maybe, but he'd had his crack against Sylvia and came up short so no huge deal to beat him. The landscape changes so quickly in the UFC, who knows who is the best HW there it could be any of 4 or 5 of them. Now suddenly Mir is no good cause he's beaten by Lesnar and Carwin? Far out.

See what if Fedor wasn't as good as people said he was, that he was fighting cans and those not at their peak anymore, and what if everything the doubters said was closer to the truth than the pro fedor pro pride etc people said?

I'm not saying Brock is the best either, I can see holes in his game. He might be the 4th or 5th best HW in the UFC who knows until he fights all these guys. But at least he's putting himself right there in the gun, which is more than we can say for Fedor. M1 global is Fedor, I don't buy the whole M1 are screwing Fedor over M1 act for Fedor what they ask for is what Fedor asks for, what they want is what Fedor wants, they ask for what I agree are crazy demands well that's what Fedor asks for.

See I think all this modest demeanour is bs, he asks for half the rights anywhere he fights in my opinion that is reflective of a person who considers himself bigger than the sport itself. The UFC have built this incredible fight league that gives opportunity to have all the best under the one roof. And this guy doesn't want to be a part of it because he wants more than the UFC gives to anyone else. That's how i see it. I'm bitter that he's not there cause i'd love to see him fight all the great fighters there, if he gets beat a few times so be it, his bs aura is destroyed but at least we get to see the truth dont we?

 

[daniel7]

Kenny Florian makes some good points.



http://twitter.com/kenny_florian

Even though Kenny picked Fedor on MMA Live, he said Werdum was a massive chance if he got the fight to the ground. Kenny just wasn't sure Werdum could get it there in the first place.

What we see with fighters from Europe and Asia coming to the US is that the level of professionalism and preparation is so far ahead of everyone else, particularly UFC fighters. They have superior strength and conditioning, nutrition practices and train in a wide variety of disciplines all the time. They've got specialist coaches for everything and even work with psychologists.

Look at Shogun, Akiyama, Mousasi and Aoki as examples of top fighters that received a massive shock when fighting in the US for the first time. Mousasi trained with GSP before his King Mo fight and he was blown away by what GSP does to prepare.

Fedor even admitted to not training in the cage before his fight with Rogers. As great as Fedor is, that's just ridiculous. I'm sure Fedor will come back stronger but I think he needs to assess where he is in terms of training and preparation. The mystique of training in a shitty gym in the backwoods of Russia is an incredible story but realistically he could be greater.

yeah i reckon you have hit the nail on the head vendrell.when you catch those ufc countdown shows in the lead to fights the new breed of fighters
are using all the lastest sport science and training methods to improve themslves as not only fighters but also making them far better athletes.you still have to train hard to punch and kick but these new methods like bj penn used with marv marinovich just take these guys to a
new level.

 

[RobbyRoy]

My thoughts, feel free to debate me.

Definitely not, great post.

 

[Magnum]

This result does nothing to disprove my ramblings for years that pride fighters were generally overrated. Shogun saved face for that whole generation of fighters but even he had his problems, which I know people blame on injuries but in my opinion that's just feeding the whole pro-pride theory too. I think he just struggled, and even now I'm about as sold on his greatness as I am Machidas or Rampage or Evans when they were champ. It's all so even, the claimed gulf between pride and ufc was only a claim, Wand was never so much better than Chuck like the pride brigade said he was. Gomi was never best in the world. Great fighters sure but it's the rating of them so much better than anything in the UFC that was wrong.

So you're going to take cheap shots at Pride now because Fedor lost!? Werdum was a fighter from Pride anyway. And how was Fedor or the other Pride fighters overated? Who has Fedor not beaten from that generation of fighters? Arlovski and Sylvia were the fighters flying the flag from the UFC and Fedor has destroyed them. The only other great HW from that era was Couture, who Nog dominated.

It's not that Pride had a huge gap of talent over the UFC, which I never thought anyway (aside from Fedor who was undeniably #1), it's that they had far MORE talent. Chuck, Wand and Randy were the elite from the UFC at LHW and were on the same level as Wand and co. But in Pride you had Wand, Arona, Hendo, Shogun, Rampage, Overeem, Igor, Lil Nog, etc

At HW the UFC had Arlovski, Sylvia, PdP, Vera and a motorcycle crash victim Mir (who was doing out on his arse) - Pride had Fedor, Nog, Barnett, Cro Cop, Sergei, Hunt, Werdum, Aleks, etc

I always thought Chuck would win inside the cage under the UFC rules (as he did) and Wand would win in japan under their full MMA rules (stomps, etc) and scoring.

And BTW, when Gomi was fighting claiming as the 'best LW in the world', the UFC didn't even HAVE a lightwieght division. BJ Penn was fighting as a middleweight and not even for the UFC. He came back into the UFC at UFC 58 at a welterweight in early 2006.

So for one, at least compare apples to oranges here. Comparing Fedor to Lesnar/Cain/Overeem etc of now or Rampage to machida or Rashad and then claiming they are overated is illogical and pathetic. It would like me Comparing Chuck and Tito now and getting to fight the new breed of fighters and then saying "look they are getting beaten, they were always overated!"

I don't want to revist these bullshit arguments, but if you must spout your Pro-UFC line, at least do it unbiasedly. Remember, I was watching Pride and UFC religiously when you hadn't even heard of Pride.

But you know, it still happens! Aoki is not anywhere near BJ yet until recently people - LOTS of people - were rating him higher? Madness.

I never rated Aoki, especially if he had to fight under the Unified Rules. I always thought Penn would dominate him.

In fact don't even think this thinking was a pride/ufc thing, or japan/usa, I think it's just anti-UFC - examples Aoki, Cro Cop, Wand, Gomi, even now Overeem, Rogers (I mean what the hell has this bloke done to be rated top 10???), what have they done to warrant their lofty ratings?

The same could be said for a number of UFC HW's - Carwin has made his name from beating Mir and Gonzaga. Well Werdum has beaten Gonzaga and Fedor, should he be higher?! Same with Brock, 1-1 with Mir and beaten Randy? He's supposed to be #1 now - oh that's right because he's in the UFC!

Overeem got knocked out by Liddell who has he really fought in MMA recently of any relevence?

Overeem was 22 and Chuck was in his prime. FFS. How relevent is bringing that up compared to Overeem at 29?

Can't a fighter improve over time. The fighter OVereem was in early 2003 is nothing compared to the one striking fear into the best strikers in the world. You just had to watch him utterly annihilate Rogers to see this guy is pretty damn awesome. Anyone with a decent knoweldge of MMA can see he's a retty amazing speciman nowadays.

Same with Fedor....his opponents are a whos who of cans.

Sylvia was on a downhill spiral by the time Fedor faced him. Arlovski yeah maybe, but he'd had his crack against Sylvia and came up short so no huge deal to beat him. The landscape changes so quickly in the UFC, who knows who is the best HW there it could be any of 4 or 5 of them. Now suddenly Mir is no good cause he's beaten by Lesnar and Carwin? Far out.

See what if Fedor wasn't as good as people said he was, that he was fighting cans and those not at their peak anymore, and what if everything the doubters said was closer to the truth than the pro fedor pro pride etc people said?

I'm not saying Brock is the best either, I can see holes in his game. He might be the 4th or 5th best HW in the UFC who knows until he fights all these guys. But at least he's putting himself right there in the gun, which is more than we can say for Fedor.

Maybe he is #1, maybe he isn't, but he's the only one with a resume large enough to make ANY kind of concrete rank. He's 31-2 FFS with 1 legitimate loss. He's fought more top names than the 5 top UFC Hw's have fought top names combined. Arona, Babalu, Schilt, Herring (prime), Nog (Prime), Nog (prime), Mirko (prime), Arlovski, Sylvia, Werdum, and lots of mid-teir guys you'll also probably just call cans. Want to take a look at Matt Hughes first 30 or so opponents? Does he get this 'cans' bullshit?

And who gives a f*ck about the ranking anyway. Serra was #1 after beating GSP, but I never thought he was. They are just numbers. I don't know why people get so wound up about them.

M1 global is Fedor, I don't buy the whole M1 are screwing Fedor over M1 act for Fedor what they ask for is what Fedor asks for, what they want is what Fedor wants, they ask for what I agree are crazy demands well that's what Fedor asks for.

What? I've explained ad-neaseum the M1 situation, but you still somehow beleive Fedor has a choice to just *go* to the UFC and fight their HW's and break his contract with M1 global. He has about as much choice as Brock has going to Strikeforce to fight Fedor. He has 10% ownership of M1... FFS Just because Alec Guinness had a % share of Star Wars, it didn't mean he could tell George Lucas how to write his part...

See I think all this modest demeanour is bs, he asks for half the rights anywhere he fights in my opinion that is reflective of a person who considers himself bigger than the sport itself. The UFC have built this incredible fight league that gives opportunity to have all the best under the one roof. And this guy doesn't want to be a part of it because he wants more than the UFC gives to anyone else. That's how i see it.

Ahh FFS, you're not worth talking about this to. I've told you the situation a number of times, but your happy to sit and believe whatever you want.

I'm bitter that he's not there cause i'd love to see him fight all the great fighters there, if he gets beat a few times so be it, his bs aura is destroyed but at least we get to see the truth dont we?

If any truth has come out, it's that you are nothing but a hater. Anyway I'm off to bed, I don't mean to sound annoyed, but half of your "arguments" could come straight out of a Sherdog troll post. I thought better of you to be honest.

 

[Deej]

Magnum you know i am not a troll, i have had these opinions for years nothing has changed. I think you only call me a hater because I'm just not drunk with fedor/pride worship like you are.

JDS did what Fedor could not do. There seems to be an excuse for everything - Cro Cop and Nog were past it when they got ko'd by Gonzaga and Mir? Convenient that they are the exact two fighters that give credibility to Fedor's record the most. Wand was past it. Shogun injured. Fedor took Werdum lightly. Fedor is under control of M1 and cant be blamed personally for crazy demands that his own representatives make.

The context of being past it is not the same with Sylvia, who was basically cut. Cro Cop came to the UFC only a year and a bit after fighting Fedor. We're not talking Randy 45yo or Chuck 39yo with any of Wand Nog or Cro Cop they should all be regarded closer to their prime now than either of those guys due to their age.

I can handle a bit here and a bit there but every time a pride fighter has not shown himself to be the superior man there has been an excuse.

I am a ufc man in the context that they are building the closest thing to my ideal fight league, where everyone fights under the same roof and we arent faced with an alphabet soup of promotions ala boxing. I've said that to you many times but you continue to refer to my ufc support, in a negative context, saying i am a blind loyalist brand guy - which i am not.

I think Fedor is a great fighter and he may well be the best ever, but i think he has ducked brock (or maybe the whole idea of deep competition) for whatever reason and i also think it's crazy to put him on this mythical pedestal of invincibility. He is what he said he was, just a man, a man who is not infallible and who can be beaten. Unfortunately we won't know how many times he could've been beaten as he's not facing the best competition in the world anymore and argueably hasn't for the last 5 years.

And nobody mentions Hughes' list of cans because nobody puts Hughes on the mythical pedestal like they do with Fedor.

Nothing personal to you of course these are just my opinions. I don't believe I'm a 'hater' just because i dont subscribe to the fedor (and pride) aura like you do.

 

[Magnum]

Magnum you know i am not a troll, i have had these opinions for years nothing has changed. I think you only call me a hater because I'm just not drunk with fedor/pride worship like you are.

I think you are much more critical of Pride/Fedor/Japanese/anything non-UFC (call it hating) than I am of criticising the UFC or 'loving' Pride, so to you claim.

I can see where Pride was great and wasn't great. Same with the UFC. I am pretty even handed I think.

I'm not drunk with Fedor aura at all. But I'm not out with a mission to discredit him and everything he's done.

For example, where are my posts claiming Fedor is some kind of god and he could never lose? I'm not one of his typical "nuthugging" fans as seen on Sherdog. Where are my posts claiming Pride was the greatest and best show on earth? Just because I may have some criticisms of the UFC (which I'm also critical of Strikeforce too) it doesn't mean I hate them, think Pride didn't have it's fair share of issues too.

It seems to me you have a mission to see any think even slightly related to "Pride" fail. Where as I support fighters and couldn't care less if they fight in Japan, Strikeforce, Bellator or the UFC.

If I ever defend other orgs or fighters, its usually because people like you are bagging them. I never outright hate on fighters, even guys like Brock.

JDS did what Fedor could not do. There seems to be an excuse for everything - Cro Cop and Nog were past it when they got ko'd by Gonzaga and Mir? Convenient that they are the exact two fighters that give credibility to Fedor's record the most. Wand was past it. Shogun injured. Fedor took Werdum lightly. Fedor is under control of M1 and cant be blamed personally for crazy demands that his own representatives make.

Yeah, JDS is a beast no qualms about that.

Werdum is a damn good fighter and deserves props, remember he took out Gonzaga just as Carwin and JDS have too. And now Fedor. Maybe JDS could beat Fedor? Maybe not... but you cant use MMAth as justification. AA > Werdum > Fedor > AA remember.

And Shogun WAS injured. Him recovering and winning the title should at least give some credence to that claim. But you'll believe what you want.

Personally I think there are just as many people trying to discredit fighters to lower the credibility of a fighter (as you are doing to Fedor) as those providing so called 'excuses' - It's all pathetic in my opinion.

Personally I think the older generation of fighters in general have all suffered. Chuck is on 4 straight losses, Randy, Nog, Wand, Sylia, Cro Cop, Hughes, Arlovski, Franklin, Tito, etc etc

Some of these guys have been fighting for 15 years straight!

But I don't see how them starting to age has anyway made them "overrated" when they were fighting 3 years ago? Yet this is what your claiming Fedor was, even though he's smashed practically everyone from that generation. Winning or losing now would have no relevence to the claim he was overated 3 years ago (as you say he was).

Is Saku "overrated" because he recently lost to Ralek Gracie?!

The context of being past it is not the same with Sylvia, who was basically cut. Cro Cop came to the UFC only a year and a bit after fighting Fedor. We're not talking Randy 45yo or Chuck 39yo with any of Wand Nog or Cro Cop they should all be regarded closer to their prime now than either of those guys due to their age.

He wasn't cut at all, neither was Arlovski, and neither was Werdum. They all left for money, hell Randy also tried.

Also Randy started fighting at mid 30's - the damage to your body through constant training and fighting is what takes it out of you. Randy is 10 years older than Nog yet Nog would be twice the age in "MMA years" because of the punishment he's taken! Cro Cop has also been fighting since he was 18 in K1 and so on.

Other fighters just lose 'form', it happens.

I can handle a bit here and a bit there but every time a pride fighter has not shown himself to be the superior man there has been an excuse.

I am a ufc man in the context that they are building the closest thing to my ideal fight league, where everyone fights under the same roof and we arent faced with an alphabet soup of promotions ala boxing. I've said that to you many times but you continue to refer to my ufc support, in a negative context, saying i am a blind loyalist brand guy - which i am not.

Thats all well and good but I've never seen you say a positive word about any other org past or present, or critisise the UFC in any way. You are much more loyal to the UFC than I'd ever be to Fedor. Yet I'm the one supposedly 'drunk' with his aura and not seeing straight, blind in the eyes of his 'mystique' apparently.

Everything Dana White says is the truth, and everything you see on a Countdown show is fact eh?

I understand you want a UFC monopoly of world domination, but not everyone does. I actually see some negatives to the situation. I like other strong orgs to keep them honest and not be able to price gouge or serve us s**t. Does that make me a UFC hater? Of course not. They are easily the best MMA org in the world right now. But I think they could easily be better and improve.

And I really dislike the propaganda that comes from Dana. Promoting is one thing, but telling lies or revising/slanting history is another thing. It might work on mainstream fans, but I'd prefer not to have my intelligence insulted.

I think Fedor is a great fighter and he may well be the best ever, but i think he has ducked brock (or maybe the whole idea of deep competition) for whatever reason and i also think it's crazy to put him on this mythical pedestal of invincibility.

Please tell me how Fedor could have left his contract to fight with the UFC. I'd like to know. Would he have told M1, "I'm leaving" ?

You ACTUALLY think that M1 would let him walk? The key to their business? The guy they have under a contract?

He is what he said he was, just a man, a man who is not infallible and who can be beaten. Unfortunately we won't know how many times he could've been beaten as he's not facing the best competition in the world anymore and argueably hasn't for the last 5 years.

And nobody mentions Hughes' list of cans because nobody puts Hughes on the mythical pedestal like they do with Fedor.

Are you assuming I do? Of course I want to see him face the best, but I have a huge question mark over who IS the best - I'm not sold on who the best heavyweight is yet, as not enough have common opponets. I have to go on what I see as an experienced MMA fan. Cain looks awesome, so does JDS.

You gotta ask yourself, who has Brock beaten? 1-1 with Mir, Herring and Randy - would Werdum do that? I'd say yes. Would Overeem? I'd say yes.

Just because the mat has a UFC logo on it, doesn't somehow make it any more 'world class' than Overeem and Werdum fighting Fedor in Strikeforce.

Answer this: Carwin has a win over Mir and Gonzaga, Werdum has a win over Fedor and Gonzaga, who do you think has a better resume? Who is more 'world class?' at this point in time?

Nothing personal to you of course these are just my opinions. I don't believe I'm a 'hater' just because i dont subscribe to the fedor (and pride) aura like you do.

See that's your mistake. Your problem is you assume that I do subscribe to this fan created 'aura' - your so wound up in your dislike for a guy 'outside' the UFC, this aura, that you play the man (being Fedor) and not the ball.

Everyone has a group of crazy nut fans, Brock, Fedor, Machida, almost everyone.

If you looked at it from an unbiased perspective, you might actually be able to see Fedor (and other ex-Pride fighters) as fighters, not representatives from an org and perhaps give them the respect they deserve.

That is all. Deej I respect your opinion, I know your a big MMA fan (whether it be only UFC regardless). But Anyway, the winners right the history books so likely that will be the UFC, so in the end you'll probably be "right".

 

[Deej]

I think you are much more critical of Pride/Fedor/Japanese/anything non-UFC (call it hating) than I am of criticising the UFC or 'loving' Pride, so to you claim.

I can see where Pride was great and wasn't great. Same with the UFC. I am pretty even handed I think.

I'm not drunk with Fedor aura at all. But I'm not out with a mission to discredit him and everything he's done.

For example, where are my posts claiming Fedor is some kind of god and he could never lose? I'm not one of his typical "nuthugging" fans as seen on Sherdog. Where are my posts claiming Pride was the greatest and best show on earth? Just because I may have some criticisms of the UFC (which I'm also critical of Strikeforce too) it doesn't mean I hate them, think Pride didn't have it's fair share of issues too.

It seems to me you have a mission to see any think even slightly related to "Pride" fail. Where as I support fighters and couldn't care less if they fight in Japan, Strikeforce, Bellator or the UFC.

If I ever defend other orgs or fighters, its usually because people like you are bagging them. I never outright hate on fighters, even guys like Brock.


Yeah, JDS is a beast no qualms about that.

Werdum is a damn good fighter and deserves props, remember he took out Gonzaga just as Carwin and JDS have too. And now Fedor. Maybe JDS could beat Fedor? Maybe not... but you cant use MMAth as justification. AA > Werdum > Fedor > AA remember.

And Shogun WAS injured. Him recovering and winning the title should at least give some credence to that claim. But you'll believe what you want.

Personally I think there are just as many people trying to discredit fighters to lower the credibility of a fighter (as you are doing to Fedor) as those providing so called 'excuses' - It's all pathetic in my opinion.

Personally I think the older generation of fighters in general have all suffered. Chuck is on 4 straight losses, Randy, Nog, Wand, Sylia, Cro Cop, Hughes, Arlovski, Franklin, Tito, etc etc

Some of these guys have been fighting for 15 years straight!

But I don't see how them starting to age has anyway made them "overrated" when they were fighting 3 years ago? Yet this is what your claiming Fedor was, even though he's smashed practically everyone from that generation. Winning or losing now would have no relevence to the claim he was overated 3 years ago (as you say he was).

Is Saku "overrated" because he recently lost to Ralek Gracie?!


He wasn't cut at all, neither was Arlovski, and neither was Werdum. They all left for money, hell Randy also tried.

Also Randy started fighting at mid 30's - the damage to your body through constant training and fighting is what takes it out of you. Randy is 10 years older than Nog yet Nog would be twice the age in "MMA years" because of the punishment he's taken! Cro Cop has also been fighting since he was 18 in K1 and so on.

Other fighters just lose 'form', it happens.


Thats all well and good but I've never seen you say a positive word about any other org past or present, or critisise the UFC in any way. You are much more loyal to the UFC than I'd ever be to Fedor. Yet I'm the one supposedly 'drunk' with his aura and not seeing straight, blind in the eyes of his 'mystique' apparently.

Everything Dana White says is the truth, and everything you see on a Countdown show is fact eh?

I understand you want a UFC monopoly of world domination, but not everyone does. I actually see some negatives to the situation. I like other strong orgs to keep them honest and not be able to price gouge or serve us s**t. Does that make me a UFC hater? Of course not. They are easily the best MMA org in the world right now. But I think they could easily be better and improve.

And I really dislike the propaganda that comes from Dana. Promoting is one thing, but telling lies or revising/slanting history is another thing. It might work on mainstream fans, but I'd prefer not to have my intelligence insulted.


Please tell me how Fedor could have left his contract to fight with the UFC. I'd like to know. Would he have told M1, "I'm leaving" ?

You ACTUALLY think that M1 would let him walk? The key to their business? The guy they have under a contract?



Are you assuming I do? Of course I want to see him face the best, but I have a huge question mark over who IS the best - I'm not sold on who the best heavyweight is yet, as not enough have common opponets. I have to go on what I see as an experienced MMA fan. Cain looks awesome, so does JDS.

You gotta ask yourself, who has Brock beaten? 1-1 with Mir, Herring and Randy - would Werdum do that? I'd say yes. Would Overeem? I'd say yes.

Just because the mat has a UFC logo on it, doesn't somehow make it any more 'world class' than Overeem and Werdum fighting Fedor in Strikeforce.

Answer this: Carwin has a win over Mir and Gonzaga, Werdum has a win over Fedor and Gonzaga, who do you think has a better resume? Who is more 'world class?' at this point in time?



See that's your mistake. Your problem is you assume that I do subscribe to this fan created 'aura' - your so wound up in your dislike for a guy 'outside' the UFC, this aura, that you play the man (being Fedor) and not the ball.

Everyone has a group of crazy nut fans, Brock, Fedor, Machida, almost everyone.

If you looked at it from an unbiased perspective, you might actually be able to see Fedor (and other ex-Pride fighters) as fighters, not representatives from an org and perhaps give them the respect they deserve.

That is all. Deej I respect your opinion, I know your a big MMA fan (whether it be only UFC regardless). But Anyway, the winners right the history books so likely that will be the UFC, so in the end you'll probably be "right".

I don't always clarify to whom I refer to when I comment on general opinions, but it is certainly not always refering to you. I can admit you probably offer a more balanced perspective on MMA, certainly a more informed and knowledgable opinion than my own.

I don't dislike Fedor, I do dislike the fact he's not in the UFC and we're unable to see how he'd go against the current crop. I'm not even sure it would prove much if he came over now, especially if he got beaten, as the 'past it' excuse would just as easily get peddled out for him as it has for Cro Cop Nog and Wand.

The thing that shits me is the people who are more aligned to your perspective than mine are almost universally incapable of accepting the possibility that all these guys that came over from pride may not have been clearly better than their UFC equivalents like they said they were. The main guys in question (in my opinion) were wand, cro cop, gomi and fedor...of those only one of them has not had their colossol reputation drastically dismantled after fighting in the UFC...coincidentally that person whose reputation remains at those legendary levels just so happens to be the one guy who refused to come. Rolling out a few lame management excuses and a moral stand against the ethics of the UFC owner doesnt cut it for me. Everyone else has been able to work something out with Dana eventually, why is Fedor any different? Pride had all their yakuza connections, didnt stop religious Fedor from getting into bed with them did it..

So Dana has to share half of the profits with Fedor in order to give the fans the fights they want to see? He doesnt give half the profits to ANYONE, but he has to do it with this guy? Do you agree this is an insane request from Fedor? Do you really honestly think M1 are asking this without Fedor's consent or approval?

 

[Deej]

By the way I know this will sound queer but I love discussing this with you here. I have nobody else really to talk like this to, I have mates that love to watch the fights but nobody who gets as excited by the bs politics as I do.

 

[Magnum]

By the way I know this will sound queer but I love discussing this with you here. I have nobody else really to talk like this to, I have mates that love to watch the fights but nobody who gets as excited by the bs politics as I do.

Hey, no problem at all man, same. It's much better than like a Sherdog board where every idiot and their dog has an 'expert' opinion.

That's half the problem. The fans (on either side) cheerleading the cause like some rabid bunch of fanatics. Problem is 80% of people there are blow in fans from the last 2-3 years of "going mainstream" and cause massive divides with their trollishness. The people who have a decent appreciation of the sport are lost in noise.

The trick is not to get caught up in that bullshit. At times I've wanted to hate Brock (because of his legion of immature/wwf fans) but in the end, he's a guy going about his business and getting into the cage for our viewing pleasure. Same goes with Fedor. So I give Brock a fair go and will judge him on how he goes in the cage.

We can agree and disagree continually about the specifics. We do agree with a lot of it, especially M1 and their crazy russian slant of where they sit in the MMA, their stupid demands and so on - I've gone on the record saying they suck, I wish Fedor never signed with them, but I'm guessing russian nationalism and his own humble/stoic personality (paint drying is more exciting than an interview with Fedor) led him to do what he thinks is right for him.

And disagree on many things we probably will forever. In 10 years none of this will matter and we'll have moved on to the next thing. In one way I can't wait for all this bullshit about Fedor, Pride, etc to be over.

I have a different perspective on MMA to you and that's fine. I'm glad we can talk about it without resorting to petty bullshit too.

 

[Deej]

I'm glad we can talk about it without resorting to petty bullshit too.

Part of the reason for this is I know you train and I do not want to get the s**t beat out of me if we ever met.

I probably do fit a just bleed type fan mindset I always get drunk watching the fights and love to get up for it yelling etc, and love a good heel personality like Brock. We have a tradition at my place when the gladiator appears we need to have skulled 2 stubbies by the time the song ends. It's a fair ask but by the time goldy and rogan are on your pretty fired up and feeling pretty buzzed and ready to go.

 

[drew_j]

Hey, back Mag said I should have a read after the Fedor loss. BF combat sports is still one of the best public MMA forums I've ever read. Coudos dudes.

P.S. Deej. You know NOTHING of MMA NOOOOOBBBB

 

[RobbyRoy]

Well that was a great read

JDS did what Fedor could not do. There seems to be an excuse for everything - Cro Cop and Nog were past it when they got ko'd by Gonzaga and Mir? Convenient that they are the exact two fighters that give credibility to Fedor's record the most. Wand was past it. Shogun injured. Fedor took Werdum lightly. Fedor is under control of M1 and cant be blamed personally for crazy demands that his own representatives make.

I get what you mean with excuses, but I think Shogun's proved this one true. Usually these "past it" comments are true though. I don't have age figures but all of Pride's big names who didn't live up to expectations would've been over 30 and had a hell of a lot of fights when they got to the UFC. They just waited too long to make the switch; and the change in rules and the cage will mess with anyone after so long in Japan. I too want fighters all fighting under the one roof or at least the option for any fighter to fight any other fighter, and I think eventually we'll see all the best fighters fighting each other.

 

[Gravel]

Matt Hughes should be mentioned more in this discussion.
His record is superior to most of the UFC and Pride fighters discussed above. Wins of BJ Penn, GSP and Royce Gracie and with 9 wins from 11 UFC title matches and most in dominating fashion he must have been close to the best PFP fighter in the world during his peak from 2002 -2007.

 

[Vendrell]

He doesn't seem to care.

 

[RobbyRoy]

I'd be tempted to put Hughes #2 all time with his record and title reign. The problem is, most of his opponents were tailor made for him. He just completely out wrestled and out muscled guys until the superior fighters in Penn and GSP came around and took him out. Yes he did beat them but there were extenuating circumstances (GSP-experience, Penn-cardio).

I'm happy with GSP at #2 though. Besides the early Hughes loss his only other loss is considered the biggest upset of all time. Plus he paid it back in full.

 

[Ross]

I think Fedor was massively overrated by those who thought he was unstoppable and would easily wipe out anyone who fought him. Similarly, those who think he's a joke for not fighting in the UFC are way off the mark. He's still a serious match-up for anybody in the heavyweight division and losing to Werdum simply proves that he makes mistakes like everyone else. Personally, I'd favour Velasquez over Fedor, go with a 50-50 bet against Lesnar or Carwin and maybe 55-45 in favour of Fedor against Dos Santos and Overeem.

 

[Magnum]

I think Fedor was massively overrated by those who thought he was unstoppable and would easily wipe out anyone who fought him. Similarly, those who think he's a joke for not fighting in the UFC are way off the mark. He's still a serious match-up for anybody in the heavyweight division and losing to Werdum simply proves that he makes mistakes like everyone else. Personally, I'd favour Velasquez over Fedor, go with a 50-50 bet against Lesnar or Carwin and maybe 55-45 in favour of Fedor against Dos Santos and Overeem.

Yep agree. Except I'd probably put Fedor a 50-50 with Cain. After what I saw of Overeem, I'd probably actually pick Overeem over Fedor.

Also depends on where the fight took place - ring/cage, Japan rules etc.

Since Fedor has started fighting in the cage under US rules, I think everyone has a MUCH better chance against him

If everyone was fighting under Japanese rules, I'd still favour Fedor over everyone at the moment.