News We’re going to Dingleyland! Construction to begin.

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[Flukey!]

So as a quick comparison, Docklands cost $460M to build in 2000. That would be over $600M in today's money.
So a stadium of half capacity and no roof etc surely would still be a $200M project.
That's a lot of dollars.

Based on a 30 year loan @ a modest 4.5%, the monthly repayments would be over $1M a month based on principal and interest repayments.
Assume we play 4 games a year there instead of Tassie, would we make $1M a match? Probably not.
Even if we did, that would mean the club would be paying $8M a year for the stadium.

While I know SFA about the costs of building stadiums, if it is anything like that at its simply not viable.

 

[Hawkk]

So as a quick comparison, Docklands cost $460M to build in 2000. That would be over $600M in today's money.
So a stadium of half capacity and no roof etc surely would still be a $200M project.
That's a lot of dollars.

Based on a 30 year loan @ a modest 4.5%, the monthly repayments would be over $1M a month based on principal and interest repayments.
Assume we play 4 games a year there instead of Tassie, would we make $1M a match? Probably not.
Even if we did, that would mean the club would be paying $8M a year for the stadium.

While I know SFA about the costs of building stadiums, if it is anything like that at its simply not viable.

Depends on the construction techniques used...you don't need to build a stadium with the bells and whistles of Ethiad, that said you wont get the economies of scale investment fund got out of Ethiad.

Carrara and the Showgrounds were both much cheaper, although that were both really retrofits to existing structures...still key to a potential stadium would be level of investment we could secure from banks / investment trusts etc. The only way we would get that support is if we could guarantee them 15-20 games a season to get ROI (it wont happen given the AFL's current stance towards stadia)

 

[m0zza]

Lanuceston makes money out of 5 AFL games a year plus a few local league games and its a 20k seat stadium.

No. Just no.

http://www.launceston.tas.gov.au/up...annual_report_financial_statements_201314.pdf

Aurora Stadium is not a separate item.
Comes under recreation and culture with a lazy $20m deficit

 

[walhawk]

Lanuceston makes money out of 5 AFL games a year plus a few local league games and its a 20k seat stadium.

There are lots of ways to realise greater value from a stadium than the gate receipts of a few games of professional football. Signage and catering revenue would belong to the club for a start. Stadium naming rights. Alternative use for stadium i.e. local clubs, VFL team, schools, public use. Besides which they already need to develop a playing surface and some sort of structure around the ground to enable closed training sessions.

It doesn't take a genius to look at google maps and realise the best land, closest to the city or desirable places to work and play is in the green corridor that exists between Oakliegh, Dandenong and Chelsea. Where are all the young families going to move to in the next 20 years? Way out east or in that corridor? A bit of PT infrastructure (roads already planned or there to some degree) and that corridor will fill with homes rapidly. We have seen the same thing happen in Brisbane. There was a corridor of 'worthless land' between Brisbane and Ipswich which is now called Springfield Lakes and is the fastest growing place in Australia and received awards for its Master Plan. Before state government funding was cut the Lions were going to base their training base there and the development was to include a small stadium capable of hosting games (primarily preseason games etc.). It will only take a bit of vision and the removal of a few hurdles through government support to see the same thing happen in that corridor. Dingley is at the northern end of that corridor and will be in a prime position to offer services that young families will want and that is one way of securing the additional funding required to turn that investment into a viable option.

The stadium has been there for decades. Half the stadium is what I would consider temporary seating and not up the standard Melbourne members would accept. The games do not make money for Launceston, the council and state govt subsidise the cost to boost the tourism spend.
You probably think we should also build a 300 room hotel so everyone can stay over night after our blockbuster Dindley matches.
And bars and restaurants too.
We could make a killing!

 

[Gold Member]

Princess Park was a boutique stadium 3km from the CBD.

Just saying....

 

[eldorado]

Princess Park was a boutique stadium 3km from the CBD.

Just saying....

Could have been the best option for a whole range of games against GWS, Gold Coast, even Port and Freo...for a whole range of Vic teams

 

[Brishawk]

What do you mean by Launceston makes money? Do you mean the actual stadium or the Hawks?
How do you know how much money Aurora stadium makes (and it only seats about 14K)?
If you count the payments made to the Hawks to play there, along with maintenance and all of the funds required to build, it would be making big losses.
That's the point people are making, if you have to stump up all of the cash to pay for a whole stadium built from scratch then it is not viable.

I double checked and if it, reading it right the council makes up a shortfall of 250k per year (so not a profit but not a major loss). That loss could be overcome if the stadium were to recieve even a quarter of the 1 million we recieve from signage and ticket sales. No need to count the tassie government money as that is not a revenue stream for the stadium and an alternative income stream could be acquired by hawthorn by obtaining another jumper sponsor.

Also stadium capacity is 21,000.

 

[PNess]

Depends on the construction techniques used...you don't need to build a stadium with the bells and whistles of Ethiad, that said you wont get the economies of scale investment fund got out of Ethiad.

Carrara and the Showgrounds were both much cheaper, although that were both really retrofits to existing structures...still key to a potential stadium would be level of investment we could secure from banks / investment trusts etc. The only way we would get that support is if we could guarantee them 15-20 games a season to get ROI (it wont happen given the AFL's current stance towards stadia)

Showgrounds and Metricon are both full blown stadiums whereas Aurora is basically one stand with bleachers around the ground. Similar capacities, very different construction costs.

 

[Gold Member]

Could have been the best option for a whole range of games against GWS, Gold Coast, even Port and Freo...for a whole range of Vic teams

Smart money would see this joint reinstated and then good club boards could negotiate clean deals with them....

Or we could have the hubris of a Carlton and build our own stadium just to show everyone how big our dick is... What a ******* wank.

 

[H2F]

I wouldn't want to be a landlord to St Kilda FC. I've heard about their wild parties and questionable acts involving school girls and dwarves.

Sounds like a party at Rustyhawk's place.

 

[Brishawk]

No. Just no.

http://www.launceston.tas.gov.au/up...annual_report_financial_statements_201314.pdf

Aurora Stadium is not a separate item.
Comes under recreation and culture with a lazy $20m deficit

The stadium has its own report. I misread previously in that what they class as revenue is actually funding from council. It has about a 250k shortfall according to their financial statement which is incredibly light on detail. The figure you are quoting is the expenses. They raise over 7 million in revenue from their parks. Not clear if that includes stadium or not. Net 12 million loss against all recreation activities and associated infrastructure.

 

[moistie]

It's a great innovation for the club to ensure the future practice/medical/training facilities remain state of the art. Plenty of room for supporters to be entertained, restaurants, bars, larger club museum with ample room to expand the trophy cabinet, potential for a massive screen to show big games to a large crowd of Hawthorn faithful.

But I'm not keen on the boutique stadium idea. Carlton tried that with Princess Park and look where they ended up.

 

[Brishawk]

The stadium has been there for decades. Half the stadium is what I would consider temporary seating and not up the standard Melbourne members would accept. The games do not make money for Launceston, the council and state govt subsidise the cost to boost the tourism spend.
You probably think we should also build a 300 room hotel so everyone can stay over night after our blockbuster Dindley matches.
And bars and restaurants too.
We could make a killing!

According to the stadiums financials the council kicks in 250k per year in capital. The hawthorn share of signage (one clean game I believe) and ticket sales (a percentage) is over a million dollars. That is sufficient to overcome the shortfall. Plus that stadium is largely on hosts non commercial events to which it offers uncommercial leases. It is not made to make a profit but it does largely cover its costs.

The life of a stadium is probably something like 50 years. Assuming a revenue of 15 million per annum in year one and adjusting solely for cpi revenue would be approximately 31 million after 25 years and 65 million in its final year. your simplistic approach to funding is incredibly misleading. There are many ways to fund a major capital work such as a stadium and none of them involve principal and interests payments to be made in full during construction. Loans can be made with vastly different terms than home loans and personal loans. Think more along the lines of how mining projects are funded. The repayments can be structured to align with expected revenue etc. it all depends on the level of risk. Equity can be used to fund the stadium plus grants from government etc. what makes or breaks the stadium deal would primarily be revenue across the life of the investment against the cost to build the stadium and any opportunity costs I.e. Could we do something better with our money than build a stadium.

I'm not saying we will build a stadium but to dismiss it outright is to ignore the potential of the location once all the families move into the green corridor.

 

[Gold Member]

I'm not saying we will build a stadium but to dismiss it outright is to ignore the potential of the location once all the families move into the green corridor.

I'm telling you now.

There is no potential in the location for a boutique stadium. At all. Ever.

Who on earth is gonna catch a train from Belgrave to Flinders St to change trains to go to Caulfield to change trains to go to Westall to get on a bus to go to the football? Not me and definitely not anybody who wants to take their kids.

Within walking distance are no shops, no bars, no pubs, no take away.

There is no scope for rail or even light rail.

But that doesn't matter. Just drive your car, but if you're a concession member without a licence then don't bother because the HFC does not need you.

Now I'm confused.. am I argueing why we shouldn't build a stadium in Dingley or factors that helped kill off Waverly?


PS. Any families who move there can make their own way to the MCG or Docklands just like everyone else. Ignoring the fact the green wedge will probably remain a gren wedge for hundreds of years.

 

[MightyHawks]

I'm telling you now.

There is no potential in the location for a boutique stadium. At all. Ever.

Who on earth is gonna catch a train from Belgrave to Richmond to change trains to go to Caulfield to change trains to go to Westall to get on a bus to go to the football? Not me and definitely not anybody who wants to take their kids.

Within walking distance are no shops, no bars, no pubs, no take away.

There is no scope for rail or even light rail.

But that doesn't matter. Just drive your car, but if you're a concession member without a licence then don't bother because the HFC does not need you.

Now I'm confused.. am I argueing why we shouldn't build a stadium in Dingley or factors that helped kill off Waverly?


PS. Any families who move there can make their own way to the MCG or Docklands just like everyone else. Ignoring the fact the green wedge will probably remain a gren wedge for hundreds of years.

Location is a pretty important factor in whether a boutique stadium would ever work

Pity that we didn't get the Hawthorn Council to buy us the Hawthorn Brickworks in 1972

The Fritsch Holzer park has been a tip itself and would be the sort of location that would work for a boutique stadium -on 3 tram routes and the train line that best services Hawthorn supporters & most importantly in the right suburb...

Won't happen though

 

[Gold Member]

Boutique Stadium?

The AFL is set to take full ownership of Docklands in 2025. That is now down to only 10 years away.
Correct me if I'm wrong but are they also considering the option of bringing that date forward with an early payout?
The AFL could conceivably own a clean boutique stadium before we even get Dingly up and running....

Obviously this would be funded through media rights:
2012-2016 $1.25b
2017-2021 $1.6b??
2022 onwards.... $2+billion??

 

[Flukey!]

I'm telling you now.

There is no potential in the location for a boutique stadium. At all. Ever.

Who on earth is gonna catch a train from Belgrave to Flinders St to change trains to go to Caulfield to change trains to go to Westall to get on a bus to go to the football? Not me and definitely not anybody who wants to take their kids.

Within walking distance are no shops, no bars, no pubs, no take away.

There is no scope for rail or even light rail.

But that doesn't matter. Just drive your car, but if you're a concession member without a licence then don't bother because the HFC does not need you.

Now I'm confused.. am I argueing why we shouldn't build a stadium in Dingley or factors that helped kill off Waverly?

Not agreeing of disagreeing, but Waverley survived all those negatives and people still went.
And yes, most drove.

 

[RustyHawk]

I don't know why you guys are worried about public transport to our new boutique stadium in Dingley. We've all seen the movies about the future.
Build it and he will come..........................by space car! We fly and park at Moorabbin in our space cars, get the new sky bridge from Moorabbin airport to Dingley Stadium, watch the game and do the reverse to leave. From stadium to home in 15 minutes..no matter where you live in Melbourne!

 

[eldorado]

I don't know why you guys are worried about public transport to our new boutique stadium in Dingley. We've all seen the movies about the future.
Build it and he will come..........................by space car! We fly and park at Moorabbin in our space cars, get the new sky bridge from Moorabbin airport to Dingley Stadium, watch the game and do the reverse to leave. From stadium to home in 15 minutes..no matter where you live in Melbourne!

Rusty Hawk, on his way to make a training report, yesterday....

 

[Procrastinator35]

I don't know why you guys are worried about public transport to our new boutique stadium in Dingley. We've all seen the movies about the future.
Build it and he will come..........................by space car! We fly and park at Moorabbin in our space cars, get the new sky bridge from Moorabbin airport to Dingley Stadium, watch the game and do the reverse to leave. From stadium to home in 15 minutes..no matter where you live in Melbourne!

Rusty & family heading to the Dingley boutique!

 

[RustyHawk]

lol, mock me if want but when your fly driving to Dingley Boutique in your brand spanking new FordAirbus or BoeingGM don't forget ol rustbucket called it first!

 

[Agent Smith]

lol, mock me if want but when your fly driving to Dingley Boutique in your brand spanking new FordAirbus or BoeingGM don't forget ol rustbucket called it first!

Couldn't we just... beam up? Big queues at the teleporters do mean delays in getting home though.

 

[Jason Dunstall]

Couldn't we just... beam up? Big queues at the teleporters do mean delays in getting home though.

See now you're just being silly...

Up until this comment, the conversation was well argued & grounded in fact & probability.....

















or not......

 

[Hawkinspired]

Lanuceston makes money out of 5 AFL games a year plus a few local league games and its a 20k seat stadium.

There are lots of ways to realise greater value from a stadium than the gate receipts of a few games of professional football. Signage and catering revenue would belong to the club for a start. Stadium naming rights. Alternative use for stadium i.e. local clubs, VFL team, schools, public use. Besides which they already need to develop a playing surface and some sort of structure around the ground to enable closed training sessions.

It doesn't take a genius to look at google maps and realise the best land, closest to the city or desirable places to work and play is in the green corridor that exists between Oakliegh, Dandenong and Chelsea. Where are all the young families going to move to in the next 20 years? Way out east or in that corridor? A bit of PT infrastructure (roads already planned or there to some degree) and that corridor will fill with homes rapidly. We have seen the same thing happen in Brisbane. There was a corridor of 'worthless land' between Brisbane and Ipswich which is now called Springfield Lakes and is the fastest growing place in Australia and received awards for its Master Plan. Before state government funding was cut the Lions were going to base their training base there and the development was to include a small stadium capable of hosting games (primarily preseason games etc.). It will only take a bit of vision and the removal of a few hurdles through government support to see the same thing happen in that corridor. Dingley is at the northern end of that corridor and will be in a prime position to offer services that young families will want and that is one way of securing the additional funding required to turn that investment into a viable option.

Slight Segway here, but do you really think Springfield lakes would have worked for Brisbane? It's kind of like the reverse of what Adelaide did by moving from somewhere 15km away to the CBD. I go to a few Lions games a year as its a central location for all involved. If the games were moved it would take 45mins for me to get there.

I get that Brisbane would become more financially viable to own their own ground and could make money based on lower crowds, but I worry how low those crowds would be if it ever got put back on the table.

 

[Gunstall555]

Slight Segway here, but do you really think Springfield lakes would have worked for Brisbane? It's kind of like the reverse of what Adelaide did by moving from somewhere 15km away to the CBD. I go to a few Lions games a year as its a central location for all involved. If the games were moved it would take 45mins for me to get there.

I get that Brisbane would become more financially viable to own their own ground and could make money based on lower crowds, but I worry how low those crowds would be if it ever got put back on the table.

From a training/facilities point of view if they can get a good deal then it is worth looking at. But from a match day point of view, whilst you can make more money on clean stadiums with lower crowds, you are going to end up with a lower membership base which will result is less overall revenue. Brisbane need to ensure their games stay at the Gabba especially for when they become competitive again. Also I live down the road and I like going for a walk down to the Gabba from time to time for the sake of it