Israel, Palestine, and everything related

[blackcat]

How many carriers hit the Egyptians that morning in 68? 1 or 2?

think a former COS of the IDF has said, "p'raps besides 48, all were wars of choice". This was, a Chief of Staff of Defence for yarweh's sake! not an anti-semite or self-hating-joo. I did not watch that documentary that SBS showed last week on former Israeli Intelligence chiefs. The Gatekeepers
just like watching n readin the current release on anything on Lance Armstrong where I have good sources, wrt Israel, dont have that source, but I have an overarching narrative without a white noise which would distort any clarity. others might like to watch tho. just like i wont watch waltz with bashir
http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/348094019912/The-Gatekeepers?query=gatekeepers

 

[Russell Jones]

you advocating bombing folx off the face of the planet. aint that the motive why u wish to smite them? #logicfallacy

#Camus
#reflectionsONtheGUILLOTINE

You got me again. My super serious plans to solve the Middle East are in tatters.

 

[blackcat]

Firstly it was 67, and the answer is 0.

i dont know the detail, but i think he airforce might be the cypher, not the "carriers". I mean, wtf would u give your enemies, or putative enemies a heads up. and if there is one thing israel arent, they arent dumb. if you instigate something, you may as well do a good job, and the strategy was sound. 'cept they did not forsee 73 and yom kippur, and the egyptians managed to get theirs back. but that wont happen again. fully understood by the strategicians in tel aviv. play for keeps. no probs on one level with that. play for keeps.

 

[blackcat]

You got me again. My super serious plans to solve the Middle East are in tatters.

hey, if you read my subsequent posts you can quite simply point out a latent hypocrisy in them

 

[telsor]

think a former COS of the IDF has said, "p'raps besides 48, all were wars of choice". This was, a Chief of Staff of Defence for yarweh's sake! not an anti-semite or self-hating-joo. I did not watch that documentary that SBS showed last week on former Israeli Intelligence chiefs. The Gatekeepers
just like watching n readin the current release on anything on Lance Armstrong where I have good sources, wrt Israel, dont have that source, but I have an overarching narrative without a white noise which would distort any clarity. others might like to watch tho. just like i wont watch waltz with bashir
http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/348094019912/The-Gatekeepers?query=gatekeepers

War of choice....I suppose it depends what the choices are, and the consequences of them.

 

[blackcat]

War of choice....I suppose it depends what the choices are, and the consequences of them.

and, I have put corollary into my final post ^

nb. 4 intellectual rigour. I dont think it was a COS. I think it was a historian. AND, it came from Finkelstein second hand, but I think I followed it up for reference. Like I said, for rigour. I think it was merely a historian, not a COS. if it was a IDF COS, it would have significant weight to render your response neutralised, but, like I said, now I remember, I believe it was only an historian, and I came to it via Norman Finklestein who does not hold out much credence for pro-Israelis. I am not underminging my post, I am just strengthening its rigour, which can be flawed and interpreted as the wrong strategy. I know that. better to be factual than malleable.

 

[telsor]

i dont know the detail, but i think he airforce might be the cypher, not the "carriers". I mean, wtf would u give your enemies, or putative enemies a heads up. and if there is one thing israel arent, they arent dumb. if you instigate something, you may as well do a good job, and the strategy was sound. 'cept they did not forsee 73 and yom kippur, and the egyptians managed to get theirs back. but that wont happen again. fully understood by the strategicians in tel aviv. play for keeps. no probs on one level with that. play for keeps.

I think it was a reference to the claims that the US/UK/someone helped the Israelis launch their airstrikes because they were so effective.

If true though, you'd think some evidence would have turned up, but instead the entire crews of those carriers have maintained their 'secret'.

 

[little graham]

Egyptians are pretty firm the Americans ( and British troops) were involved, as firm as they were when Israel claimed to the UN security council they were attacked first.

We know who was lying on that one.

I do believe I know Englishman in the territorial army who was placed on alert a few days before the surprise Egyptian attack that was actually a surprise Israeli attack that wasn't really a surprise at all.

 

[blackcat]

I think it was a reference to the claims that the US/UK/someone helped the Israelis launch their airstrikes because they were so effective.

If true though, you'd think some evidence would have turned up, but instead the entire crews of those carriers have maintained their 'secret'.

they were just effective cos they were playing for keeps and future. sound strategy. USS Liberty was in 67 innit? So why would the have told the IDF, unless there was a mole. like you, I dont buy that. Lots of stuff will never come out, like who MEGA is, the spy, lots of mail points to the Sydney guy Indyk, but you dont know how much of that is anti-Israel rhetoric from the Alex Jones infowars and his ilk/crowd.

what the conspiracy theorists, might be conflating, is the James BAker nod and wink (toSaddam), and Kissinger nod and wink to invade Timor, a nod and wink, does not necessarily mean coordinates. What is not contests, and is consensus, the Yanks gave Saddam the coordinates and sat photos of the IRanian positions in the Iran-Iraq war.

 

[blackcat]

Egyptians are pretty firm the Americans ( and British troops) were involved, as firm as they were when Israel claimed to the UN security council they were attacked first.

We know who was lying on that one.

I do believe I know Englishman in the territorial army who was placed on alert a few days before the surprise Egyptian attack that was actually a surprise Israeli attack that wasn't really a surprise at all.

the Egyptians had companies or a battalion in the NEgev no? but it was not in sufficient numbers, nor an offensive posture, to threaten the Israelis. They did learn their lesson for 73 tho. Swings and roundabouts. So why wasn't 73 a war of necessity then? Well, they never retreated from the Negev, srry, think it is Sinai. If they held their line at the original border, then there was not casus belli from egyptians. As it was, it was a valid action to retake their territory. The Israelis always could have retreated. This is indicative, not wrt Israel, but wrt to sovereign states. Only 28 yrs post WWII (for context). Well, if you assume 67, only 24 years post WWII

 

[blackcat]

Egyptians are pretty firm the Americans ( and British troops) were involved, as firm as they were when Israel claimed to the UN security council they were attacked first.

but this was the height of Cold War, and the Egyptians were aligned to USSR. I am not sure they would be aware of how much specific support or intelligence the Israelis are getting from the US. the USS Liberty attack was 67 I think.

The US have been pretty open, not their Defense Dep't, but the off the record, and ex-intelligence operatives, there are many lines about the history now. You wont get "official" from State dep't in DC, nor Tel Aviv. So, you need to see it off record, I have not seen anything on the 67 yank complicity. the caveat is, I am not that well read-up on the issue. Better than 99.9%. But still not well informed.

 

[little graham]

the Yanks gave Saddam the coordinates and sat photos of the IRanian positions in the Iran-Iraq war.

Didn't Saddam have Russian tanks? Americans needed to know what their anti missiles were like against Russian armour. Never had a decent opportunity until then. So they sold a heap to the embargoed Iran, illegally, over a period of time.

War cost Iraq 530 billion, Iran about 600 billion. The guy who designed that missile was the richest guy in the world.

 

[blackcat]

Didn't Saddam have Russian tanks? Americans needed to know what their anti missiles were like against Russian armour. Never had a decent opportunity until then. So they sold a heap to the embargoed Iran, illegally, over a period of time.

War cost Iraq 530 billion, Iran about 600 billion. The guy who designed that missile was the richest guy in the world.

are we talking Contra? Are we talking Ollie North? I thought @MarkRich was the richest guy in the world with persian oil and then Glencore and Xstrata and the Australian/Saffa guy who is about the third richest aussie currently who is the ceo

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

One further point I'd like to add is that no other country put in israels position would put up with what Israel has to endure, and the dangers their civilians have to live with in their daily lives.

Can't imagine most countries would put up with it, could you imagine what Russia would do for example? Would be goodnight for the Palestinians.

What would Australia do if ISIS/Hamas operated out of west Sydney and blew up the scg, beheaded civilians, suicude bombed Sydney junction, fired rockets into bondi all because we are infidels?

A lot of other countries aren't set up like Israel though, i.e a Jewish State. I realise what you wrote before about Jewish secularism and that the 'Jewish' character of Israel doesn't necessarily mean an orthodox religious character or a theocracy - but the view inside the box doesn't seem as rosy if you're not Jewish.

Of course, a Jew living in an Islamic State would be having an equally torrid time. This speaks volumes about the nature of hardline religion. It is an abomination to all free-thinking peoples.

If your arguing the above terror inflicted on innocent civilians is justified in israel Because the land is 'stolen'' (well firstly you are a moron who justifies terror secondly) I say the only land that is deemed 'occupied' is the West Bank (apart from golan), as gaza is under Hamas control. Every other inch outside is woldly recognised as the state of Israel and not stolen and is here to stay, forever.

So are the Palestinians causing all this terror for just the West Bank? The answer is no, they are fighting to wipe the entire country of Israel off the map. To kill all the infadels and to make Israel another Muslim nation.

Maybe Hamas fight for that. The PLO/Fatah were more secular in nature - they fought the Occupation. Not always in a correct and dignified manner mind you, but they fought the Occupation.

If we go to 1967 borders (and remove those minority jewish religious nutters who believe it is their god given land, which id love to see happen) do you really believe Hamas/Palestinians will stop? How naive.

Any solution to peace starts with the Palestinians acceptance of Israel and its right to exist. The next step is talking about 1967 borders.

Hamas might well have changed its tune if, having won the Gazan elections and not been subjected to immediate blockade by Israel, they actually got saddled with governance, with politics, and with the economic future of their electorate.

They weren't given a chance to. We weren't given a chance to see how they would react to the political realities of ruling a nation.

I'm still not convinced of the morality for separate ethnic or religious nation-states. To me an Islamic State is objectionable. To me a Jewish State is objectionable. A Christian State, a Jewish State. Even an Athiest State is something I can't believe in or validly support.

I like living in a multi-culture, and it's good that we have diversity. Living together needn't mean the extinguishing of cultural identity, which I know is what Jews in Israel worry about when the spectre of a bi or multi-national state is raised.

I think there are good, moderate youth leaders over there somewhere. There needs to be an international effort to silence the hard-liners of both sides in order to encourage these moderates to take centre stage.

Of course, this means taking on the Christian Right in the United States as well, degrading their political power to lobby for and influence Israel's own hard right.

It means cracking down on the corrupt House of Saud in Saudi Arabia, who along with various private moneymen all over the Gulf finance hardline Islamists all over the globe.

Something's gotta give...

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

are we talking Contra? Are we talking Ollie North? I thought @MarkRich was the richest guy in the world with persian oil and then Glencore and Xstrata and the Australian/Saffa guy who is about the third richest aussie currently who is the ceo

Funny you mention Contra - Israel was in the thick of that thing, too.

https://www.brown.edu/Research/Understanding_the_Iran_Contra_Affair/i-theexpansion.php

 

[Geelong_Bisons_#36]

One further point I'd like to add is that no other country put in israels position would put up with what Israel has to endure, and the dangers their civilians have to live with in their daily lives.
.

You mean except Palestine.
You are so blind it is embarrassing.

 

[little graham]

are we talking Contra? Are we talking Ollie North? I thought @MarkRich was the richest guy in the world with persian oil and then Glencore and Xstrata and the Australian/Saffa guy who is about the third richest aussie currently who is the ceo

Iranians mostly got http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-71_TOW which were made by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Aircraft_Company.
The Israelis were the middle man as they were when the US supplied arms to the embargoed South Africans. Could probably find a link between sterilization vaccines being tested in South Africa and the Hughes medical institute. Probably find a link between Hughes medical institute and the Reagan administration (Rumsfield anyone?)

Thats what it was about.

 

[telsor]

Egyptians are pretty firm the Americans ( and British troops) were involved, as firm as they were when Israel claimed to the UN security council they were attacked first.

We know who was lying on that one.

I do believe I know Englishman in the territorial army who was placed on alert a few days before the surprise Egyptian attack that was actually a surprise Israeli attack that wasn't really a surprise at all.

It wasn't a surprise to anyone. The Egyptians, Jordanians & Syrians had been massing troops on the Israeli border for a while leading up to it and the Iraqis had started sending troops into Jordan to join in. The Israelis preempted their attack by striking Egypt first. Egypt claimed a great victory in that in order to con their 'allies' into joining the war while in truth they'd lost practically their entire airforce.

The Egyptians like to suggest the Israelis had help because they had their butt handed to them so badly that it's embarrassing and it's be less so if a major power had been involved, but fact was that the Israelis were better trained, more motivated and better led. For example Israel seemed to have more planes than they did because they'd trained in rapidly refueling/rearming the planes, allowing for 4 sorties a day, while the Arabs were doing well if they could manage 2.

 

[blackcat]

It wasn't a surprise to anyone. The Egyptians, Jordanians & Syrians had been massing troops on the Israeli border for a while leading up to it and the Iraqis had started sending troops into Jordan to join in. The Israelis preempted their attack by striking Egypt first. Egypt claimed a great victory in that in order to con their 'allies' into joining the war while in truth they'd lost practically their entire airforce.

Yitzak Shamir has been on record (I think it was Shamir) who said, "we attacked them", and the forces in Sinai were not sufficient in numbers, and, not offensive posture. They were vulnerable. Now, what the gov't and knesset told the domestic constituents in 67, was completely different. The communications and messaging on the homefront, was "we are vulnerable, Egypyt have called up forces". Then all the IDF reserves were called up, and the feeling on the domestic front, indeed, WAS it was existential and the arabs were going to invade, and they took the preventative strike. So, as far as I am aware, and it could be me that is wrong, is what telsor writes, is correct in one respect, this was the facts the Israeli public were being told at that time. Now, the comment could be from Menachem Begen. It was "lets be clear with ourselves" or "lets be truthful with ourselves".

It was a great strategic opportunity to weaken their enemy, and they hit their contiguous enemies airforces and wiped them out.

We hear other justifications like casus belli that the Sinai canal was closed to Israel shipping, but Egypt never closed the Mediterranean for shipping access, and international lawyers of repute have quashed this "explanation", this casus belli, said its bunkum. Could say then, the embargos on specific parts of Palestine would be casus belli in that case. Most of the justifications, if given a universality, which is a tenet of justice, can show the light of day, these are just communication propaganda.

But 1973 Egypt did, that was the sneak attack to remove the IDF from the Sinai. 67, I think the recent academic consensus, is, this was not the existential fight the Israelis had sold it as.

 

[little graham]

The Israelis preempted their attack by striking Egypt first.

Germans claimed that in 41, despite all the evidence in the world, you won't believe them. But you believe everything Isreal says, even though they told the UN security council it was attacked first.

I don't expect you to understand this, Its more about showing others the lunacy fundamentalism creates, when fundamentalists try to talk about history.

 

[Geelong_Bisons_#36]

Something you won't read in any MSM.

http://972mag.com/watch-police-spray-putrid-water-on-palestinian-homes-schools/98840/

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Something you won't read in any MSM.

http://972mag.com/watch-police-spray-putrid-water-on-palestinian-homes-schools/98840/

This is a product called Skunk, developed by a company called Odortec. Here's their website;

http://www.skunk-skunk.com/121755/The-Product

 

[Geelong_Bisons_#36]

I'd love to hear an explanation as to why none of the MSM outlets covered this. ^^
As that is the topic of the thread, it's a relevant question.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I'd love to hear an explanation as to why none of the MSM outlets covered this. ^^
As that is the topic of the thread, it's a relevant question.

It is. The thing is, a product like Skunk isn't just a crowd dispersal weapon - it's also an area-deniability one too. As per the article it was sprayed on buildings and schools. Nobody can use these buildings afterwards.

A good weapon for non-lethal ethnic cleansing?

 

[Geelong_Bisons_#36]

It is. The thing is, a product like Skunk isn't just a crowd dispersal weapon - it's also an area-deniability one too. As per the article it was sprayed on buildings and schools. Nobody can use these buildings afterwards.

A good weapon for non-lethal ethnic cleansing?

That's it, make the Palestinian area unlivable and hope they'll crack and leave their own country.

As for why the MSM is not reporting it, maybe doesn't quite fit in with the story that the Palestinians are the aggressors.