North Fined $20,000 - Ridiculous

[Black Diamond]

The most farcical aspect of this is how it started with a comment to a reporter by Petrie.

Yet Carlton gave evidence at Ziebell's suspension hearing the Joseph was concussed by the hit. They put him on the field later in the game.

So we have a club putting on record that a player was concussed. Where is the investigation?

 

[blueboy25]

Yet Carlton gave evidence at Ziebell's suspension hearing the Joseph was concussed by the hit. They put him on the field later in the game.

So we have a club putting on record that a player was concussed. Where is the investigation?

Nice try but incorrect.

Joseph stayed on the field after the hit (happened in the 2nd qtr) but complained of concussion like symptoms at half time. He was then subbed out of the game and spent the rest of the game on the bench. Carlton advised the tribunal that Joseph had delayed concussion from the hit.

 

[Black Diamond]

Nice try but incorrect.

Joseph stayed on the field after the hit (happened in the 2nd qtr) but complained of concussion like symptoms at half time. He was then subbed out of the game and spent the rest of the game on the bench. Carlton advised the tribunal that Joseph had delayed concussion from the hit.

Nick Bowen reported during the hearing that Joseph was diagnosed with concussion at half time. Did he go on in the second half?

 

[Underdog]

"However, the AFL did find that North Melbourne had breached a rule that requires clubs to fully cooperate and to provide all relevant information and evidence to investigators,'' the AFL said in a statement on Friday

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North's interim chief executive Cam Vale said the Kangaroos had accepted the fine and apologised to the AFL.​

"The club ... should have handled its part in the investigation better,'' he said.​

"We fully support the actions of our doctor and his management of Lachlan Hansen.​

"We are satisfied no one involved in the investigation deliberately misled, lied or influenced any witnesses to be untruthful in the statements, evidence or correspondence.​

"We will ensure maximum cooperation for any future investigation.''​

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Regardless of the circumstances, NM know the rules and they broke them. It's as simple as that.​

 

[StevenwellerHFC]

What more did the AFL want??

AFL: "Was Hanson sent back on with concussion?"

Roos "No"

AFL "Are you sure?"

Roos "Yes"

AFL " We don't belive you - Hanson looks groggy"

Roos "That is his normal dopey look"

AFL "You are not being very helpful - give us $20,000"


The AFL are IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This.
Definitely a joke.

 

[Theo X]

What has the fact that the Roos are a 'struggling club' got to do with it?

Agree, they're 6 million, give or take a mill, in debt, 20K ain't going to make a difference.

 

[blueboy25]

Nick Bowen reported during the hearing that Joseph was diagnosed with concussion at half time. Did he go on in the second half?

No he didn't, he was subbed at halftime after complaining of concussion like symptoms.

 

[Underdog]

I would put more stock in a sworn statement than something he said on the radio.

AFL weren't happy that what he had sworn to witnessing himself was different to comments he said on the radio. They would have been happier if he lied to the AFL?

Sworn statements from Petrie?

 

[Tas]

Ummm no. North lied to the AFL and gave conflicting evidence. They have been subsequently fined. You should be happy, it was only $20k and half suspended.

No, there is no basis for the fine.

The North Melbourne Football Club has been fined $20,000 ($10,000 of which is suspended) by the AFL under Player Rule 1.8(g) following an investigation into the match day management of Lachlan Hansen, who received a heavy knock in Round 20.

1.8(g) being: "refuse or fail to fully co-operate with any investigation conducted by the
AFL under the AFL Rules & Regulations;"

If we were accused of lying, as you claim, we would have been fined under 1.8(a): "give any false or misleading evidence to any hearing, investigation, inquiry or appeal conducted under the AFL Rules & Regulations"

Given we weren't fined under 1.8(a) then you can dismiss the notion that we gave false or misleading evidence.

We are not talking about a massive conspiracy, the maximum fine for ignoring a doctor and putting a concussed player out on the park is $20k. They have effectively given us the full penalty, with half of it suspended for not doing so. It is bullshit.

There was nothing to hide, Petrie could have said the player was in full seizure at half-time and it wouldn't have made a spit of difference if in the doctor's opinion it was not concussion related.

Ultimately, the only review of any importance is what the Doctor diagnosed and if our coach over-ruled him. What other players witness is irrelevant if the doctor doesn't believe it has anything to do with concussion.

 

[Underdog]

AFL got pissed off with our doctor, who works in a hospital when not doing our games, for being busy dealing with patients in a busy hospital and didn't make an ultra urgent investigator meeting.

Since when is it the problem of the AFL that your club doctor has a job away from the club and didn't make himself available for an interview?

It's YOUR club's responsibility for YOUR staff. If you employ someone who cannot commit sufficiently within AFL rules, then that is YOUR problem.

This is assuming this is the one and only reason for the fine...

 

[liam_13]

We are not talking about a massive conspiracy, the maximum fine for ignoring a doctor and putting a concussed player out on the park is $20k.

That is a ridiculously small punishment for ignoring a doctor and putting a concussed player back on the field - if Hansen had a proper concussion and the doctor told us he was ill and not to go back on, and we put him back on, I would expect proper shit to go down, because it opens the AFL (and North) up to future consequences.

 

[Tas]

Since when is it the problem of the AFL that your club doctor has a job away from the club and didn't make himself available for an interview?

It's YOUR club's responsibility for YOUR staff. If you employ someone who cannot commit sufficiently within AFL rules, then that is YOUR problem.

This is assuming this is the one and only reason for the fine...

All club doctors have jobs away from the AFL, usually their own practice. We are fortunate enough to have someone who is a highly regarded doctor. I only raise it because AD was pissy in an interview that our doctor failed to make himself available at the request of the investigators. It was one of their petty complaints about how we were not fully co-operative.

These morons think the universe revolves around their fat arses.

 

[Black Diamond]

No he didn't, he was subbed at halftime after complaining of concussion like symptoms.

Fair enough. Withdrawn.

 

[liam_13]

Since when is it the problem of the AFL that your club doctor has a job away from the club and didn't make himself available for an interview?

It's YOUR club's responsibility for YOUR staff. If you employ someone who cannot commit sufficiently within AFL rules, then that is YOUR problem.

This is assuming this is the one and only reason for the fine...

It's not the AFL's problem - but it's pretty unreasonable. Can you not see that?

I would also think it's safe to assume that wasn't the only reason for the fine.

 

[TheKanga]

Agree, they're 6 million, give or take a mill, in debt, 20K ain't going to make a difference.

It's only 3-4 million now i think.

 

[Tas]

That is a ridiculously small punishment for ignoring a doctor and putting a concussed player back on the field - if Hansen had a proper concussion and the doctor told us he was ill and not to go back on, and we put him back on, I would expect proper shit to go down, because it opens the AFL (and North) up to future consequences.

We have no interest in putting our player's health at risk. We sub off players for ridiculously minor physical grievances and we are going to put someone out there who has suffered brain damage? The concept is beyond ridiculous.

The problem we have is that no club has a neurologist on the payroll, club doctors are reliant on the concussion protocols giving them the tools to be able to diagnose concussion accurately and it is not a problem for just the AFL, it is a problem in sports in general.

I do agree, the fine for deliberately playing a concussed player is far too trivial.

 

[Underdog]

All club doctors have jobs away from the AFL, usually their own practice. We are fortunate enough to have someone who is a highly regarded doctor. I only raise it because AD was pissy in an interview that our doctor failed to make himself available at the request of the investigators. It was one of their petty complaints about how we were not fully co-operative.

These morons think the universe revolves around their fat arses.

It's not the AFL's problem - but it's pretty unreasonable. Can you not see that?

We don't know what transpired. Perhaps the doctor said he couldn't speak for a week or kept delaying without providing alternatives.

Perhaps all that was required was a 30 minute phone conference which can be done quite easily within days.

The AFL rules that clubs must cooperate fully. Perhaps they were tired of chasing him for an appointment. Perhaps NM were not proactive enough to assure their staff follow AFL rules.

There are so many explanations for the fine being perfectly reasonable.

 

[Tas]

No he didn't, he was subbed at halftime after complaining of concussion like symptoms.

The medical report your doctor lodged with the AFL Tribunal was that he had suffered concussion. something that he had failed to diagnose at the time. The grievous extent of the medical report contributed to Ziebell being treated harshly by the Tribunal.

You would think a failing of that magnitude would be worthy of investigation.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

$20,000? Sounds like the AFL needed someone to fund their Christmas function.

You can always tell which clubs the AFL favour can't you?

 

[Tas]

We don't know what transpired. Perhaps the doctor said he couldn't speak for a week or kept delaying without providing alternatives.

Perhaps all that was required was a 30 minute phone conference which can be done quite easily within days.

The AFL rules that clubs must cooperate fully. Perhaps they were tired of chasing him for an appointment. Perhaps NM were not proactive enough to assure their staff follow AFL rules.

There are so many explanations for the fine being perfectly reasonable.

I understand what you mean, but this isn't really an urgent matter. Do they really need to squeeze a guy working in a life and death environment for an investigation that would drag on for months over an incident with a maximum fine of $20k?

We are just talking about what is reasonable. Petrie was miffed because he was called to do an interview on a Saturday before a game on the same day. That is way too invasive for a pissant investigation like this, it suggests the AFL is not being reasonable.

If they said make time available on a Tuesday after training and the guy will come down to the club after you finish your media commitments and we can have a chat because we are worried about player health and safety in general and want to make sure we learn from what is going on and make it better going forward, do you think they would have run into any major troubles?

It is this Stalin-like grip they want to have which makes them confrontational with the clubs and players. How much did the Eagles liked being dragged over by the balls from Perth to Melbourne for their drug kangaroo court proceedings?

There is a difference between working with players and clubs and being stand-overish. It stinks of middle-management bureaucracy, people get a little bit of power and they have this Napoleon complex.

 

[blueboy25]

The medical report your doctor lodged with the AFL Tribunal was that he had suffered concussion. something that he had failed to diagnose at the time. The grievous extent of the medical report contributed to Ziebell being treated harshly by the Tribunal.

You would think a failing of that magnitude would be worthy of investigation.

Joseph got up after the hit and played on for the rest of the quarter, it was only at halftime that he complained of not feeling well and was diagnosed with concussion.

Not sure how the Dr is meant to diagnose that he was suffering from concussion when he didn't come off to get examined and he didn't start getting the symptoms of concussion until half time.

If a player hurts his finger during a game and doesn't tell the medicos and it ends up being broken are you saying the Dr has a case to answer?

 

[Underdog]

If they said make time available on a Tuesday after training and the guy will come down to the club after you finish your media commitments and we can have a chat because we are worried about player health and safety in general and want to make sure we learn from what is going on and make it better going forward, do you think they would have run into any major troubles?

Perhaps your club should have advised them that particular times were unsuitable and set-up appointments for players and staff...

The AFL does not know the specific schedules of the AFL clubs or their staff.

If there was a problem with particular appointments, the Kangaroos should have addressed as such and been proactive in setting up appropriate meetings as soon as possible.

The Kangaroos have admitted they were at fault in this respect.

 

[Underdog]

I understand what you mean, but this isn't really an urgent matter. Do they really need to squeeze a guy working in a life and death environment for an investigation that would drag on for months over an incident with a maximum fine of $20k?

The bloke could be a GP working regular business hours for all the investigators know.

If it was an issue, it is up to your club to advise as such. By not doing so you potentially wasted their time and resources due to your club not following AFL rules.

 

[Tas]

Perhaps your club should have advised them that particular times were unsuitable and set-up appointments for players and staff...

The AFL does not know the specific schedules of the AFL clubs or their staff.

If there was a problem with particular appointments, the Kangaroos should have addressed as such and been proactive in setting up appropriate meetings as soon as possible.

The Kangaroos have admitted they were at fault in this respect.

I agree that it seemed there was a breakdown in communication and it should have been better from both parties. I just do not agree with the need to fine a club for it.

I think there needs to be a clear process in terms of the responsibilities of the various parties and what clubs need to do and in what time period. If such a process existed then the AFL would have said we had failed to do our part in the process.

I don't think the failing was ours alone, however, we could have handled it better by not being confrontational about it. I think a lot of people just thought it was a bit of a joke that the investigation happened out of a stupid comment a player makes on the radio.

AFL wants broadcasters to get value for money and we open up broadcasters to have full access to our club, if the AFL take it to an extreme we are going to shut down the open policy. The fact they have failed to investigate any other of the dubious concussion instances is a bit of a joke.

 

[Tas]

The bloke could be a GP working regular business hours for all the investigators know.

If it was an issue, it is up to your club to advise as such. By not doing so you potentially wasted their time and resources due to your club not following AFL rules.

That depends on if the investigators went via the club or not, which I have doubts they did. I doubt our club would have arranged for them to interview Drew Petrie on the day of a game interrupting his preparation and a player would definitely have not chosen that time to speak to the AFL.

I think they just contacted each party directly and told them to make themselves whenever they told them to make themselves available.

I think the problem is people expect the AFL to be reasonable and that if we didn't meet their expectations then it is us who are unreasonable. AFL is furthest from a reasonable organisation.