Play Nice Still no evidence against Melbourne re: tanking

[jonbe54]

quote little hawk I dont understand Jonbe54

Sorry I can't get the quote button up on my browser at the moment.

Was replying to Higgs Bonson's last post and suggesting that he is living in fantasy land.

 

[Theo X]

What does draft a record mean?

 

[Baldur]

I don't think using the soccer match-fixing examples is appropriate. Melbourne weren't deriving any financial benefit from 'tanking'.

However, this won't stop the AFL from making an example out of Melbourne if they decide to do so, especially if the betting agencies start to weigh in on this.

One of the allegations is that they were selling the team to potential sponsers on the grounds they would get the first two picks & therefore have a couple of high profile players to showcase the sponsers. So Melbourne was deriving a financial benefit. Nevertheless I do not believe that the AFL will find them guilty of match fixing, but they they are stupid enough to go to court, then its possable, if unlikely.

 

[ziad]

tanked to get a hack that is so poor as a KPF they have to pick up a discard hack from Collingwood to play the role,

still do the crime....

 

[Bluelegs]

quote little hawk I dont understand Jonbe54

Sorry I can't get the quote button up on my browser at the moment.

Was replying to Higgs Bonson's last post and suggesting that he is living in fantasy land.

He's not though. You were just sensationalising the point. There is no recording or record of anything to do with Melbourne's tanking that we know of only witness reports which cover both sides of the argument. If there was a recording of people at Melbourne saying "we're tanking" the case would already be over.

 

[ziad]

On a side note has a club ever actually gotten harshly penalised for the vague notion of "bringing the game into disrepute"

Cuz had a year off

WC had to undertake major changes that were so significant they cost two seasons - in responding to the charge. melistan is well and truely much further up disrepure creek

inreality it is a concept of the modern era so history is probably silent - unlike the squeelers inside melistan

 

[DaVe86]

Despite my earlier post stating the AFL have a lot to answer for....a few posts above are also incorrect to say that Melbourne did nothing corrupt.

Perhaps it is not match-fixing in the sense no money was derived from betting...but it is still a situation where a number of individuals fixed the results of matches to ensure a certain outcome.

I don't think the comparisons to soccer are accurate...but you could probably compare them to the athletes from the Olympics in badminton who deliberately lost to ensure they got a better opponent in the next round.

They were disqualified from the tournament. Again you could argue the rules were inadequate in the sense that they gave a reward to losing...but the system was manipulated and the athletes punished.

It really is the same situation here. I do blame the AFL for leaving these rules in place and outright denying such a situation can occur. But on the other hand, the rules were designed to equalise the competition. They weren't designed to encourage losing. Yet ultimately that's the effect they had.

And the notion to say there is no evidence is incorrect. Statements from individuals is evidence...especially coming from former players of the club. Quotes from Dean Bailey himself around the time of his dismissal are also evidence.

Messy messy situation which the AFL has brought upon themselves, however they will have little alternative other than to penalise Melbourne here. I think its ultimately the best compromise that they are punished next year as opposed to now...but I'd say most Dees supporters will be happy with that as long as they get Wines and Viney this year and their mini draft pick next year

 

[jonbe54]

Quote He's not though. You were just sensationalising the point. There is no recording or record of anything to do with Melbourne's tanking that we know of only witness reports which cover both sides of the argument. If there was a recording of people at Melbourne saying "we're tanking" the case would already be over. End quote

Sorry my quote button has disappeared Blue legs so I am reduced to copy/pasting.

I think you are refining too much to say there is no paper trail. Too many seperate testimonies of intention to beat the system are on the public record to deny culpability - whether the AFL chooses to act is another matter entirely.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe any club is lilly white in this type of thing, however I believe the handling of the whole affair is amateurish - whether that be the individuals fault or the organizations fault is a moot point.

 

[Achilles Heel]

Despite my earlier post stating the AFL have a lot to answer for....a few posts above are also incorrect to say that Melbourne did nothing corrupt.

Perhaps it is not match-fixing in the sense no money was derived from betting...but it is still a situation where a number of individuals fixed the results of matches to ensure a certain outcome.

I don't think the comparisons to soccer are accurate...but you could probably compare them to the athletes from the Olympics in badminton who deliberately lost to ensure they got a better opponent in the next round.

They were disqualified from the tournament. Again you could argue the rules were inadequate in the sense that they gave a reward to losing...but the system was manipulated and the athletes punished.

It really is the same situation here. I do blame the AFL for leaving these rules in place and outright denying such a situation can occur. But on the other hand, the rules were designed to equalise the competition. They weren't designed to encourage losing. Yet ultimately that's the effect they had.

And the notion to say there is no evidence is incorrect. Statements from individuals is evidence...especially coming from former players of the club. Quotes from Dean Bailey himself around the time of his dismissal are also evidence.

Messy messy situation which the AFL has brought upon themselves, however they will have little alternative other than to penalise Melbourne here. I think its ultimately the best compromise that they are punished next year as opposed to now...but I'd say most Dees supporters will be happy with that as long as they get Wines and Viney this year and their mini draft pick next year

And that is so correct the AFL will have to be seen to be doing something or the authorities will act as the public is outraged, like all things that stink the PC brigade will force the AFL to act.

 

[Baldur]

These comparisons don't exactly hold up when the AFL has shown in the past that they would rather bury their head in the sand then actually confront tanking, they clearly didn't think it to be as big of an issue as those other examples to the point where they would handle it on the same level as those other examples. If the AFL had been that disgusted with tanking when the original suspicions were going on then Melbourne never would have had the opportunity to tank because they would have eliminated it from the game, even if they hadn't have punished anyone they would have at least removed the incentive, something that took them a very long time to do. Hell, Demetriou and Anderson defended Melbourne when the original tanking allegations were thrown and were quite vitriolic to those making the claims. I also don't think the AFL views the alleged tanking as being the same as the examples of match-fixing you've provided. Playing players out of position is not as bad as a boxer being instructed to fall over in the third round.

I'm not saying any of that will save Melbourne, but what I am saying is that the AFL won't punish Melbourne to the extent that you suggest, we will lose draft picks, we will get a fine, we will be publicly humiliated, that will be it.

B does not follow A

I agree that the AFL buried their head in the sand. But it does not follow that they considered it unimportant. It could be that they considered it so important that they preferred to deny then deal with it. In the hope that it would stop & never be proven.

Not a good coping strategy but a very common one, how many times does a large organisation get into issues & their first reaction is to deny & cover up until this becomes impossable? Even to the extent of refusing to change the policy causing the problem becouse to do so could admit that there is a problem. In fact this appears to be the most common reaction.

Just reading the newspapers this year brings many possable examples of such reactions. The Catholic Church's reaction to pedophilla allegations, the Governments reaction to increases in boat people numbers, the Republicans reaction to electoral loss. Deny there is a problem, attempt to cover up, refuse to alter polices that lead to the problem, attempt to blame others.

In fact that reaction is common among many of the posters in this thread.

Often when the denial becomes impossable they then turn on a scape goat, throwing said to the wolves in an attempt to protect themselves.

As I have already said I doubt that the AFL will find that Melbourne tanked, but coming down on some Melbourne people like the Wrath of God and a painful but limited slap for Melbourne. Yes that sounds like the typical next action for a large organisation facing a problem of their own making. The bad apple defence.

 

[Bluelegs]

Quote He's not though. You were just sensationalising the point. There is no recording or record of anything to do with Melbourne's tanking that we know of only witness reports which cover both sides of the argument. If there was a recording of people at Melbourne saying "we're tanking" the case would already be over. End quote

Sorry my quote button has disappeared Blue legs so I am reduced to copy/pasting.

I think you are refining too much to say there is no paper trail. Too many seperate testimonies of intention to beat the system are on the public record to deny culpability - whether the AFL chooses to act is another matter entirely.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe any club is lilly white in this type of thing, however I believe the handling of the whole affair is amateurish - whether that be the individuals fault or the organizations fault is a moot point.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there's no evidence only that all the evidence we've seen is witness reports, unless I've missed something. If I have please show me. The club didn't leave a record of tanking. The thing that was so ameturish if these reports are true is that they were very obvious about the whole thing and had meetings about the topic. Though I think while those reports harbour some truth they have been sensationalised to sound more incriminating. Let's be honest this whole topic has a LOT of bullshit around it. I expect we'll actually find out what's going on come the 19th. But right now I'm taking everything with a grain of salt.

 

[doggies ftw]

If Toumpas slips past GWS and Melbourne take him I'm going to be pissed.

 

[ziad]

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there's no evidence only that all the evidence we've seen is witness reports, unless I've missed something.

And thats enough to get you convicted of murder

 

[Higgs Boson]

quote little hawk I dont understand Jonbe54

Sorry I can't get the quote button up on my browser at the moment.

Was replying to Higgs Bonson's last post and suggesting that he is living in fantasy land.

Riiiiight.

Just how does asking what "record" was apparently drafted, and not "destroyed before it found its way into public hands" living in a fantasy land?

Good grief man, try to think before you post

 

[royals1922]

We are in no way near comparable to match fixing by the likes of Juventus, and the only explanation for someone making that analogy is that both their parents raised them poorly, and they are also really thick.

Always good to get a well reasoned response.......we'll see on the 19th

 

[blueboy25]

Cuz had a year off

WC had to undertake major changes that were so significant they cost two seasons - in responding to the charge. melistan is well and truely much further up disrepure creek

What were these major changes that were so significant that it cost West Coast two seasons?

 

[Theo X]

And thats enough to get you convicted of murder

Not if there's coercion involved and conflicting wintness reports

 

[ziad]

Not if there's coercion involved and conflicting wintness reports

being made aware of contractual responsibilities isn't coersion

only needs to be enough consistancy to make the AFL happy - this isnt a court

 

[ziad]

What were these major changes that were so significant that it cost West Coast two seasons?

complete focus on off field cultural change at the expence of on field performance. this is very well documented. Glass was in part made AA captain because of the leadership he added to this process.

 

[jonbe54]

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there's no evidence only that all the evidence we've seen is witness reports, unless I've missed something. If I have please show me. The club didn't leave a record of tanking. The thing that was so ameturish if these reports are true is that they were very obvious about the whole thing and had meetings about the topic. Though I think while those reports harbour some truth they have been sensationalised to sound more incriminating. Let's be honest this whole topic has a LOT of bullshit around it. I expect we'll actually find out what's going on come the 19th. But right now I'm taking everything with a grain of salt.

Finally got my reply button back

Totally agree on sensationalism, there is obviously the smell of blood in the water and the press doesn't care who - they will continue to circle until one or two fish are cut off from the school and then watch out!!!

The entire media mechanism is geared toward sensationalism - look at the rubbish that was printed about Cloke last year - every couple of days some fresh - or rehashed piece of drivel purporting to have the inside line on what was in essence a very simple negotiation.

The same will happen now with Melbourne and Adelaide, not to mention Hawthorn with Buddy coming out of contract.

The only thing to do with the great bulk of the media is to recyle it into speed humps in back streets where the stench will not affect the majority of the population.

 

[blueboy25]

complete focus on off field cultural change at the expence of on field performance. this is very well documented. Glass was in part made AA captain because of the leadership he added to this process.

So how may training session did the players miss so they could go to these extra education sessions.

Or did the club say you can't go out partying like you have in the past and this had a detrimental effect on field?

 

[jonbe54]

quote Riiiiight.
Just how does asking what "record" was apparently drafted, and not "destroyed before it found its way into public hands" living in a fantasy land?

Good grief man, try to think before you post unquote

You could do the same thing sunshine anyway I'm finished replying its hard to talk sense to anyone with their head buried in the sand.

 

[Bring-Back-Powell]

If Toumpas slips past GWS and Melbourne take him I'm going to be pissed.

Why?
We deserve compensation for losing Scully and we are guilty of nothing, as yet.

 

[ziad]

So how may training session did the players miss so they could go to these extra education sessions.

Or did the club say you can't go out partying like you have in the past and this had a detrimental effect on field?

FThe matter was far more professional than you seem to understand.

A layer of management / leadership / development put in place. Also Board level changes.

Extensive development sessions / cultural change workshops, etc were given a priority above on field coaching and related team meetings to prepare for games. The later were allowed to slip. But it has been covered so many times in interviews with Woosher etc, and in the print media - I will leave you to do your own research.

Other actions includeed:

• deloisting 2 or 3 players prematurely (others can fill in the detail)
• trading a couple who were not seen as redeamable culturally to Vic clubs. One was a No 1 Draft pick.
• sacking best player and onfield leader

 

[blueboy25]

FThe matter was far more professional than you seem to understand.

A layer of management / leadership / development put in place. Also Board level changes.

Extensive development sessions / cultural change workshops, etc were given a priority above on field coaching and related team meetings to prepare for games. The later were allowed to slip. But it has been covered so many times in interviews with Woosher etc, and in the print media - I will leave you to do your own research.

Other actions includeed:

• deloisting 2 or 3 players prematurely (others can fill in the detail)
• trading a couple who were not seen as redeamable culturally to Vic clubs. One was a No 1 Draft pick.
• sacking best player and onfield leader

Your number 1 pick you were referring to was Gardiner was traded in 2006 the year you won the flag so he doesn't count.The AFL didn't threaten sanctions until the end 2007.

Who were the undesirables that were traded to Victorian clubs from 2007 onwards?