Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[porksy]

Agnostic.

Although it is amusing that Christian dogma leads to the logical conclusion that Lucifer was right.

Fair enough

 

[porksy]

Because you dont have 'free will' when your decisions are preordained by God.

Its not a choice when the outcome is already known.



Yes, he clearly did!

He designed us with the capacity to sin (he could have designed us otherwsie), already knowing we would.

He designed us with the capacity to obey and love him too. It's a two way street, Mal

 

[bombermick]

I'm pretty sure you're talking about the Calvinist reform/St Augustine's idea of predestination.

Ever thought that verse could be referring to babies in their mothers' wombs? God knew before they were a mere sperm in the race to the egg that they would live an Earthly life. So they were "predestined" or "chosen" to live. Also states in the Bible that EVERYONE is made in the image of God, so your verse most probably is referring to ALL humans, and not just a chosen group of elites.

There are many, many Bible verses that also state "Anything is possible through Jesus". So taking that into account too, the 'predestined group' theory is most likely false

The logic is sound. If you're not called, you can't answer the call. Don't answer the call, you're stuffed. In Exodus, after the Pharaoh refuses to let the Jews go a few times; God hardens his heart. Therefore, after that point, it was impossible for Pharaoh to let them go.

Furthermore, you can only come to Christ if you hear his name. Yet there would have been millions of people in North and South America and Australia, as well as most of Africa and Asia that would have never heard of Yahweh/Jesus. What happened to them?

 

[tb_fanboy]

The logic is sound. If you're not called, you can't answer the call. Don't answer the call, you're stuffed. In Exodus, after the Pharaoh refuses to let the Jews go a few times; God hardens his heart. Therefore, after that point, it was impossible for Pharaoh to let them go.

Furthermore, you can only come to Christ if you hear his name. Yet there would have been millions of people in North and South America and Australia, as well as most of Africa and Asia that would have never heard of Yahweh/Jesus. What happened to them?

Paul tells is that those who have never heard of the Lord are judged on the Lords law in which he placed in all our hearts

 

[Malifice]

That's not the concept of God though. That not what happens as your argument is that God forces people to do things- no free will. Porksy has mentioned many times that God knows what we're going to do but does NOT force us to do it. It's not like Gods playing a video game controlling our lives but he is watching it happen like watching an ant colony...we're doing things ourselves.

Youre not answering my question.

God doesnt 'force' us to do anything. Its just as a byproduct of his infalibility and His knowing what we are going to do before we do itleaves us with zero say on our choices and decisions.

You cant choose any differently, because God already knows what choice you will make.

1. The Christian God as I understand it wants us to love him by choice and does not force us to love him

If you dont consider 'burning in a lake of fire for all eternity' 'forcing us to love him' then I am a little perplexed.

Besides. God already knows who is going to Sin (and who is going to Hell). He knew he would have to build Hell to hold all those sinners before it was needed. He knew Lucifer was going to fall, knew Eve was going to take the apple, he knew he would have to 'punish' wrongdoers, after creating those wrongdoers knwoing that they'll do it.

2. To make that choice we need free will.

Exactly. As I have already demonstrated, no human being can have free will with the existence of an allknowing God.

Its logically impossible. The only 'choices' you make are already preordained by God. The outcome is already known, and you cant change that no matter how hard you try.

What I think you don't understand is God created us with the ability to sin but not TO sin.

What youre ignoring (time and time again) is God knew we would Sin when he created us and could have created us differently.

Ergo (logically) he created us to Sin.

Unless you are suggesting that God was surprised by Man Sinning?

 

[Malifice]

I think it's pretty ridiculous that a human would be able to outsmart the dude who knows literally EVERYTHING.

Exactly.

Seeing as you cant outsmart God, you have to do exactly what he forsees you doing.

Your 'free will' is an illusion.

He knew it would happen, but he did not WANT it to happen

If he didnt want it to happen why did he make us that way, knowing it would happen before he made us?

If he didnt want it to happen its well within his power to prevent it.

 

[porksy]

The logic is sound. If you're not called, you can't answer the call. Don't answer the call, you're stuffed. In Exodus, after the Pharaoh refuses to let the Jews go a few times; God hardens his heart. Therefore, after that point, it was impossible for Pharaoh to let them go.

Again, old testament stuff. God's punishments were a lot harsher back then, but after Jesus' death it is well known he was a bit softer as Jesus had taken the real penalty.

Furthermore, you can only come to Christ if you hear his name. Yet there would have been millions of people in North and South America and Australia, as well as most of Africa and Asia that would have never heard of Yahweh/Jesus. What happened to them?

Same could be said for newborns/toddlers who have died young and never heard of Jesus.

I think he would have something else to judge the people by. As God, he would be able to see into the peoples' hearts and whether or not they would have accepted him if they had come to know him. I'm not suggesting that is how he may do it, but just an idea.

My guess is that a self-proclaimed merciful God is indeed, merciful; I personally can't see someone with mercy as a quality casting a baby into a lake of fire.

 

[bombermick]

Paul tells is that those who have never heard of the Lord are judged on the Lords law in which he placed in all our hearts

I figured you would say that. Therefore, when a missionary goes into an area they are directly leading a person into hell. This is because without the gospel they may have followed what they knew of the Lord's law. But if they rejected their new-found 'knowledge', they were now condemned.

 

[Malifice]

He designed us with the capacity to obey and love him too. It's a two way street, Mal

He designed some people to love him, and some to hate him.

You never had a choice. He already knew before you were even born which way you would go.

You literally have no say in the matter.

 

[porksy]

Exactly.

Seeing as you cant outsmart God, you have to do exactly what he forsees you doing.

It's not a matter of "you have to do it". It's a matter of, you in your heart would do it, and God KNOWS that you would make that decision already. He didn't decide it. That is the point of free will.

Just because he has given us free will, doesn't mean we are outsmarting him. That's a weird analogy.

If he didnt want it to happen why did he make us that way, knowing it would happen before he made us?

Free will does not ultimately lead to evil. You can choose right.

If God had a say in every single one of our decisions, it would not really be called free will, would it?

If he didnt want it to happen its well within his power to prevent it.

That would make us robots under a dictatorship. He knows darn well that we are people and not objects for his own sadistic needs. This is why he made free will.

 

[Pie eyed]

They need a universe and space to pop in and out of, time to exist for them to pop anywhere in this space, and an observer to give them form.

Your theory fails due to lack of a universe for sub atomic particles to pop into.

In the famous words "its not my theory"....
Speak to Hawking.
I was explaining his latest doco and his explanation of how a universe can come from nothing.

Aren't you the one who thinks the universe is really a computer simulation...the matrix?
Who says they need anything to pop in and out of?
Where do they go when not in this universe?

 

[porksy]

He designed some people to love him, and some to hate him.

You never had a choice. He already knew before you were born which way you would go.

You have a choice, God just already knows what your choice will be.

 

[bombermick]

Again, old testament stuff. God's punishments were a lot harsher back then, but after Jesus' death it is well known he was a bit softer as Jesus had taken the real penalty.

I was quoting from Romans.

Same could be said for newborns/toddlers who have died young and never heard of Jesus.

I think he would have something else to judge the people by. As God, he would be able to see into the peoples' hearts and whether or not they would have accepted him if they had come to know him. I'm not suggesting that is how he may do it, but just an idea.

My guess is that a self-proclaimed merciful God is indeed, merciful; I personally can't see someone with mercy as a quality casting a baby into a lake of fire.

That doesn't seem like free will. What you would have done? You can't change it. The biggest problem is God created heaven and hell knowing the vast majority of us would reject him. I think my figures of 90% are conservative.

 

[porksy]

I figured you would say that. Therefore, when a missionary goes into an area they are directly leading a person into hell. This is because without the gospel they may have followed what they knew of the Lord's law. But if they rejected their new-found 'knowledge', they were now condemned.

God would be able to see right into their hearts what they would choose if they knew God anyway.

 

[Malifice]

Aren't you the one who thinks the universe is really a computer simulation...the matrix?

Just an analogy I use.

I actually think the universe is most likely a subjective shared illusion.

Who says they need anything to pop in and out of?

Science.

 

[porksy]

I was quoting from Romans.

The new testament recounts a LOT of old testament stories. It happened long before Romans was written.

Speaks wonders about your knowledge of the Bible.

That doesn't seem like free will. What you would have done? You can't change it. The biggest problem is God created heaven and hell knowing the vast majority of us would reject him. I think my figures of 90% are conservative.

God created heaven and hell knowing the majority of us would reject him? They are decisions you made for yourself! That is the point of free will. It is not God's fault if you CHOOSE to turn on Him.

 

[Pie eyed]

It's not a matter of "you have to do it". It's a matter of, you in your heart would do it, and God KNOWS that you would make that decision already. He didn't decide it. That is the point of free will.

Just because he has given us free will, doesn't mean we are outsmarting him. That's a weird analogy.



Free will does not ultimately lead to evil. You can choose right.

If God had a say in every single one of our decisions, it would not really be called free will, would it?


That would make us robots under a dictatorship. He knows darn well that we are people and not objects for his own sadistic needs. This is why he made free will.

Free will is a handy cop out to excuse an allegedly omnipotent God for a total lack of omnipotence.
I'll bet there was a big party at the Vatican the night some fruit thought up the "free will" escape clause.
Did any of the Christians who died in Christchurch over Christmas choose to die in a earthquake? Free will bollocks.

 

[Malifice]

It's not a matter of "you have to do it". It's a matter of, you in your heart would do it, and God KNOWS that you would make that decision already. He didn't decide it. That is the point of free will.

How is it free will if the outcome is already known?

What choice do you have here when the outcome is preordained?

Free will does not ultimately lead to evil. You can choose right.

No you cant choose right. The choice has already been made for you, and the outcome already is known before you were even born, let alone 'making that choice'.

If God had a say in every single one of our decisions, it would not really be called free will, would it?

God does have a say in every single one of our decisions. He's never surprised. Hes omnipotent and omniscient remember.

That would make us robots under a dictatorship.

Now youre getting there.

He knows darn well that we are people and not objects for his own sadistic needs.

Must be why he set up this whole 'heaven and hell' thing.

That sounds like a pretty sadistic game to me.

This is why he made free will.

No, thats why he gave you the illusion of free will.

To stop you from rebelling.

 

[porksy]

Free will is a handy cop out to excuse an allegedly omnipotent God for a total lack of omnipotence.
I'll bet there was a big party at the Vatican the night some fruit thought up the "free will" escape clause.
Did any of the Christians who died in Christchurch over Christmas choose to die in a earthquake? Free will bollocks.

Death and free will are extremely different things, unless you are talking suicide.

 

[Pie eyed]

Just an analogy I use.

I actually think the universe is most likely a subjective shared illusion.



Science.

Should have been a wink there.....in my last post.

 

[Malifice]

Lucifer was totally right.

 

[Pie eyed]

Death and free will are extremely different things, unless you are talking suicide.

Free will is anything you care to believe it is in the context that a theologist will use it to excuse God of responsibility.

 

[porksy]

How is it free will if the outcome is already known?

What choice do you have here when the outcome is preordained?

It is free will because God knows what you will choose using your own free will.

No you cant choose right. The choice has already been made for you, and the outcome already is known before you were even born, let alone 'making that choice'.

It's not chosen for you. God already knows what you will choose before you even exist, right or wrong. He didn't decide it, he just knows it in his mind.

God does have a say in every single one of our decisions. He's never surprised. Hes omnipotent and omniscient remember.

He chooses not to personally impact every little action we do, so that we can have free will.

Now youre getting there.



No thats why he gave you the illusion of free will.

To stop you from rebelling.

Don't know where in the world you got that idea from. That is pretty odd. How did you come up with it (again a serious question)?

My view is that you'll never really know unless you are God yourself. Which I'm assuming you are not.

 

[Malifice]

It is free will because God knows what you will choose using your own free will.

So you cant choose otherwise because God already knows what you will choose?

How is this 'free will'? You dont get a say in it at all!

It's not chosen for you. God already knows what you will choose before you even exist, right or wrong. He didn't decide it, he just knows it in his mind.

He did decide it. He made you that way, knowing exactly what you would do!

He chooses not to personally impact every little action we do, so that we can have free will.

So God chooses not to exersize his ominsicence, and instead chooses not to know everything?

Thats a better argument.

Don't know where in the world you got that idea from. That is pretty odd. How did you come up with it (again a serious question)?

It was Lucifers central argument against God.

 

[porksy]

Free will is anything you care to believe it is in the context that a theologist will use it to excuse God of responsibility.

Right. What is the other option?

It's either free will or mindless dictatorship. A merciful, just God would not order his own creation to burn for eternity in Hell, therefore the only other option is free will, which makes far much more sense than this "illusion" theory you guys are suggesting.