Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[Pie eyed]

It is free will because God knows what you will choose using your own free will.




It's not chosen for you. God already knows what you will choose before you even exist, right or wrong. He didn't decide it, he just knows it in his mind.



He chooses not to personally impact every little action we do, so that we can have free will.


Don't know where in the world you got that idea from. That is pretty odd. How did you come up with it (again a serious question)?

My view is that you'll never really know unless you are God yourself. Which I'm assuming you are not.

Just supposing your replies have some foundation in truth, what is the point of God even creating humanity?
What is achieved, to what end and why **** around?
Why not just send "X" percent to hell and "X" percent to heaven?
Why not just create respectful followers and be done with it?
Is God pimping for Satan?

There is no logic in any of your assumptions.

How does a child dying an agonizing, terrifying death at the hands of a murderer add to Gods rich tapestry?
Why would any sentient being allow just one such death in human history?

 

[porksy]

So you cant choose otherwise because God already knows what you will choose?

You are constantly misunderstanding me.

God did not DECIDE what you will do with your free will, but he KNOWS what you will do with it. Psychics, horoscopes and soothsayers are as we all know, bullshit. Therefore there is little to no way you will see into your future, unless God tells you himself (and the chances of that happening are as likely as me turning into a pile of Vitamin C tablets in 1 minute). You cannot alter your destiny for the sake of it. Free will is what YOU would choose in your heart.

So God chooses not to exersize his ominsicence, and instead chooses not to know everything?

He knows everything, but FREE will is FREE. He has chosen to not have a say in our actions.

 

[Malifice]

You are constantly misunderstanding me.

I understand you fine.

You just dont yet understand that your actions are preordained by the very divinity that created you.

God did not DECIDE what you will do with your free will, but he KNOWS what you will do with it.

So can you choose to do anything other than what God knows you will do?

You cant. Your destiny is preordained before you were even born.

There is one way out however.

Assuming God is Allpowerfull (Omnipotent) and Allknowing (Omniscient), he can choose to exersize his omniscience; or not to. In other words, he has the power (Omnipotence) to not forsee the future (omniscience) should He so desire.

Which, in order for your entire existence not to be preordained, he must do.

God chooses not to use his Omniscience. Free will is preserved.

There, I let you off the hook.

 

[porksy]

Just supposing your replies have some foundation in truth, what is the point of God even creating humanity?
What is achieved, to what end and why **** around?
Why not just send "X" percent to hell and "X" percent to heaven?
Why not just create respectful followers and be done with it?
Is God pimping for Satan?

There is no logic in any of your assumptions.

How does a child dying an agonizing, terrifying death at the hands of a murderer add to Gods rich tapestry?
Why would any sentient being allow just one such death in human history?

Hell if I'll know the answer to that. I'm not Jesus.

You could ask the exact same question for people with children. "Why did you have kids?"

Do you have kids PE? If so, why?

 

[Malifice]

Right. What is the other option?

It's either free will or mindless dictatorship.

Lucifer went with option B.

He was probably right.

A merciful, just God would not order his own creation to burn for eternity in Hell.

Err... thats exactly what hes done.

 

[bombermick]

The new testament recounts a LOT of old testament stories. It happened long before Romans was written.

Speaks wonders about your knowledge of the Bible.

My knowledge of the bible is very good. Paul is not quoting the Old Testament, and even if he was, he's not ushering in a new code here.

God created heaven and hell knowing the majority of us would reject him? They are decisions you made for yourself! That is the point of free will. It is not God's fault if you CHOOSE to turn on Him.

God creates a world that appears to our science to show it was not designed. Reject faith on that and you go to hell.
God creates a world that appears very old. Believe that and you risk hell.
Born in Saudi Arabia where it's almost impossible to hear the gospel, and in a world where most people follow the faith of their parents/society at large. To hell with you, too.

 

[holy diver]

Exactly. Perhaps the yahweh version isn't the "correct" god. Could be the Allah version with the updated mohammad lessons is the correct one. Then again it may have been Baal all along. Could be a non-abrahamic god like Thor or perhaps the awesomely named chinese god Iron-Crutch Li.

 

[Malifice]

This threads been quite useful.

I've come to the conclusion that God (should He exist) either:

a) Can not forsee the future (and we can have free will). I rule this out because he is also Omipotent.
b) Can forsee the future - however He continually chooses not to do so (and we can have free will), or
c) Can and does forsee the future - and we are all meatpuppets following preordained destinies with the illusion of free will.

There is no other logical explanation.

 

[bombermick]

Okay that's it, I'm now a follower of Iron-Crutch Li. It takes balls to follow him.

 

[tesseract]

As for God's omnipotence, God can know the end from the beginning, as demonstrated by many a prophecy which had been given mankind well in advance of the outcome that came true, but He can also choose not to know the outcome. Here's an example: If God already knew how Abraham would act when he told Abraham to sacrifice his son, there would be no point in God asking such a thing of Abraham. Since all things are possible for God, God choosing not to know certain outcomes isn't inconceivable.

 

[Malifice]

As for God's omnipotence, God can know the end from the beginning, as demonstrated by many a prophecy which had been given mankind well in advance of the outcome that came true, but He can also choose not to know the outcome. Here's an example: If God already knew how Abraham would act when he told Abraham to sacrifice his son, there would be no point in God asking such a thing of Abraham. Since all things are possible for God, God choosing not to know certain outcomes isn't inconceivable.

Thats the only way that we can have both an omniscient God and Free will at the same time. Otherwise everything is simply preordained.

But if God was able to peer into the future, he would have had a general idea that Man sinned and Lucifer fell. He also would have known that Jesus would come (the Messiah) and in fact many of the so called prophesies relate to Jesus.

So if God knew we would fall, and also knew Jesus would come to redeem us all, care to explain his rather chidlish and petty vindictiveness and mass slaughter of innocents after humanity 'fell'?

From the Bible, its pretty clear that all those mass killings and genocide and child sacrifices were designed to make us fear Him.

 

[tesseract]

Thats the only way that we can have both an omniscient God and Free will at the same time. Otherwise everything is simply preordained.

But if God was able to peer into the future, he would have had a general idea that Man sinned and Lucifer fell. He also would have known that Jesus would come (the Messiah) and in fact many of the so called prophesies relate to Jesus.

So if God knew we would fall, and also knew Jesus would come to redeem us all, care to explain his rather chidlish and petty vindictiveness and mass slaughter of innocents after humanity 'fell'?

From the Bible, its pretty clear that all those mass killings and genocide and child sacrifices were designed to make us fear Him.

God didn't know we humans would sin and rebel, he chose not to know. God could've peered if he wanted to, but he didn't, as demonstrated in the example.

Do I care to explain your accusations? No, for you've already come to your own close-minded, ignorant, conclusion. I will say, that if you understood the main premise of the bible, it'd go a fair way into understanding why God acted as he did. God's actions are explained in the bible. It's such conclusions as you've come to which is why I rarely bother attempting debate on this forum any more. For a forum that makes judgments and accusations against God, they don't even have their facts in order before they go on their troll fest. When it comes to matters pertaining to God, this SR&P board is a festival of ignorance.

 

[Malifice]

God didn't know we humans would sin and rebel, he chose not to know. God could've peered if he wanted to, but he didn't, as demonstrated in the example.

Do I care to explain your accusations? No, for you've already come to your own close-minded, ignorant, conclusion. I will say, that if you understood the main premise of the bible, it'd go a fair way into understanding why God acted as he did. God's actions are explained in the bible. It's such conclusions as you've come to which is why I rarely bother attempting debate on this forum any more. For a forum that makes judgments and accusations against God, they don't even have their facts in order before they go on their troll fest. When it comes to matters pertaining to God, this SR&P board is a festival of ignorance.

The Bible clearly states that Gods intention behind the genocides, sacrifices and massacres was to make us fear him.

Apparently we surprised God (as he didnt know we were going to fall) so he had a ****ing tantrum and started massacring people.

To show us he loved us or some such shit.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The Bible clearly states that Gods intention behind the genocides, sacrifices and massacres was to make us fear him.

Apparently we surprised God (as he didnt know we were going to fall) so he had a ******* tantrum and started massacring people.

To show us he loved us or some such shit.

Mal, I seem to remember reading about a U.S Major being interviewed about the U.S bombing of Ben Tre and its resultant mass civilian casualties. He said something along the lines of 'it became necessary to destroy the town in order to save it'.

Now, seeing as how the U.S was fighting 'godless communism' and is now fighting 'godless islam' dosen't that just equate Washington D.C with the Lord? Is the Pentagon nothing less than the Flaming Sword of God?

What insight can we gain into the mind of the Lord by watching His Magnificent Killing Machine in all its glory? Fear the United States? Fear the Lord? Fear Israel? Fear the Lord?

 

[Malifice]

Is the Pentagon nothing less than the Flaming Sword of God?

Many in the US warmachine seem to think so.

Quite literally.

 

[fishardansin]

Malifice. You seem concerned about committing to a creation without creator. However, either choice at this stage is just as plausible as each other and Occam's Razor probably then requires that you remove the creator.

However the two main premises of a monotheistic god are omniscience and omnipotence and both are easily shown to be logically impossible. The simple proof against omnipotence is that god is so powerful he could create a rock so big that he couldn't lift it, but god is so powerful he could lift anything. It is so simple yet totally clear. This is what we in the maths field call beauty!! Finally it is possible for free will and omniscience to co-exist. Simply because there is such a high level of randomness involved here that in essence god would have to know infinite possibilities and by definition that is not knowing. It is like you being asked what the result of the next coin toss will be and then answering it will be either heads or tails. That is not informing anyone. Now take into account the huge amount of variables involved and that on a quantum scale everything is random. Considering this if X is the amount of states each Planck length in the universe can take each

Plank moment and Y is the smallest amount of balls of radius Planck that can cover the universe then the universe has X^Y possible states that the it could take in the next Planck length of time. The fact that the sequence is random means that we have probabilities and most likely mathematical expectations, however when you consider the extra ordinary number that Y is and if we were to have 10^44 iterations per second iterations of a sequence that has so many possibilities we are probably able to show, eventually and with a capability beyond mine, that the universe is uncomputable. In other words given a countable set of Turing machines with a countable amount of iterations each the the next state of the universe could not be solved. Yes that is countably infinite!! If the universe is uncomputable then it is without design, let alone an all knowing one!!

Regards all loving, well, if he was then he's either impotent or unaware of some things now isn't he!!

 

[Malifice]

fishardansin

You're giving God anthropomorphic qualities. Essentially viewing Him as an Omnipotent and Omniscient human being.

Consider how Ants view Humans. Can an Ant comprehend Human reasoning?

 

[Lagooner]

Can omniscient God who,
Knows the future find,
The omnipotence to,
Change His future mind?

 

[bombermick]

Good point. We view God as a more powerful version of us, when there is no reason to. Incl. traits like jealousy.

 

[JHF1870]

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Deuteronomy 22 28-29 NIV (Bible Gateway)

Classic BS courtesy of the 'bible'

I'll be back with more folks

 

[Malifice]

Good point. We view God as a more powerful version of us, when there is no reason to. Incl. traits like jealousy.

Exactly. We as humans cant know why God massacred and killed all those people, ordered child sacrifices and condoned rape and slavery and committed genocide.

Just like we cant attribute Jealousy to God, neither can we attribute Love.

 

[Pie eyed]

Right. What is the other option?

It's either free will or mindless dictatorship. A merciful, just God would not order his own creation to burn for eternity in Hell, therefore the only other option is free will, which makes far much more sense than this "illusion" theory you guys are suggesting.

I am not suggesting any theory,nor am I making any argument for or against God.
I am pointing out the inconsistencies in what others claim of his/her/it.

It is not for me provide proof of another claims only to request what evidence there is to support said claims.
Belief is in itself nothing like evidence and all I read is total inconsistency, confusion and misunderstanding between the views and beliefs of those who claim evidence of some God.

 

[porksy]

Just like we cant attribute Jealousy to God, neither can we attribute Love.

WE can't. GOD can. God states Himself that He is both loving and a jealous God.

 

[Malifice]

WE can't. GOD can. God states Himself that He is both loving and a jealous God.

He's omnipotent. Ergo he's powerful enough not to be jealous.

 

[fishardansin]

fishardansin

You're giving God anthropomorphic qualities. Essentially viewing Him as an Omnipotent and Omniscient human being.

Consider how Ants view Humans. Can an Ant comprehend Human reasoning?

No I'm not. I'm saying that god can create something that he can't lift is a paradox and I'm saying that the universe is most likely uncomputable and if we're talking about a random variable/process then knowing all possible outcomes is not information and if thereis a known outcome then we don't have free will and quantum mechanics is wrong. Nothing to do with human reasoning, other than I'm a human!!