Mega Thread Essendon's punishment - Opinion, theories etc

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Leather Poisoning said:
The whole "it's just poor governance" approach is frustrating.

Talking about governance as a separate issue to drug cheating is a little underhanded.

The Essendon version seems to be that they didn't cheat and that any drug taking was accidental. It was just a case of hiring some dude and letting him run riot with some inadvertent results.

To me, the consent forms show a level of awareness and care (dare I say governance) about rules and legalities. The problem was that nobody, well aside from doc Reid, questioned the risks of having a drug program in the first place. The doctor shopping that B&m reported shows that Essendon are willing to take great measures to exploit a loophole in rules that a poorly governed group wouldn't even be aware of.

Governance and injecting of banned substances are two sides of the same coin here. To treat them as isolated, unrelated issues is ridiculous. However, this is the afl and ridiculous is the new normal.

The response I anticipate from Essendon fans here is "well why is it a charge of disrepute instead of medical negligence and/or doping code violations?" And to this I don't really have an answer. My guess is that the disrepute rule means they can hand down any punishment they like without having to involve any additional groups (eg police, work safe, medical board for medical negligence; and they can't charge for doping violations on an interim report.)
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If the record keeping is so poor or has been deliberately tampered with that total proof cannot be established, this would cover it.
 
Lach72 said:
If the record keeping is so poor or has been deliberately tampered with that total proof cannot be established, this would cover it.
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I just find the poor record keeping so hard to believe.

Expensive peptide products that nobody is keeping track of who receives what in what doses?
A 'pharmacologically experimental' environment where nobody is keeping track of results and doses?
Highly tailored personal regimes that someone forgot to record?
All the care taken to go offsite, inject in amazing volumes and frequency but not enough care take to actually write it down?

Does that sound believable to anyone????
 
Since the Mod closed my other thread for some stupid reason!

Say Essendon keep their draft picks, But lose all their points, They would be moved to the bottom of the ladder below GWS.

Does this mean since they keep their picks they would have the No.1 or No.2 Draft pick if they win this weekend?
 

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mighty magpie 05 said:
Since the Mod closed my other thread for some stupid reason!

Say Essendon keep their draft picks, But lose all their points, They would be moved to the bottom of the ladder below GWS.

Does this mean since they keep their picks they would have the No.1 or No.2 Draft pick if they win this weekend?
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No chance.

They will move to the end of each round. Or they may be placed where they would have finished, which is between 5th and 8th I think.
 
Mm
Leather Poisoning said:
I just find the poor record keeping so hard to believe.

Expensive peptide products that nobody is keeping track of who receives what in what doses?
A 'pharmacologically experimental' environment where nobody is keeping track of results and doses?
Highly tailored personal regimes that someone forgot to record?
All the care taken to go offsite, inject in amazing volumes and frequency but not enough care take to actually write it down?

Does that sound believable to anyone????
Click to expand...

When you can take into account the club know what they had for breakfast 2 years ago and every part of their life is meticulously recorded....exercise heart rates weights....all legitimate medical treatments.....No it's fair to say that they're not kidding anyone.
 
Leather Poisoning said:
I just find the poor record keeping so hard to believe.

Expensive peptide products that nobody is keeping track of who receives what in what doses?
A 'pharmacologically experimental' environment where nobody is keeping track of results and doses?
Highly tailored personal regimes that someone forgot to record?
All the care taken to go offsite, inject in amazing volumes and frequency but not enough care take to actually write it down?

Does that sound believable to anyone????
Click to expand...

Exactly, it probably won't happen but at some point their list of charges should include the deliberate destruction (or at least removal) of medical records. I'd imagine at that point the AFL and negotiations would seem like a pretty cosy place to be.
 
So Caro is saying in the age, that one of the possible options now is that Essendon retain their 2013 points but don't play in the finals?

How does that work? And for what reason would they do this?
 
The AFL's position isn't strong enough to simply impose the harshest sanctions they can come up with.

Whether people like it or not the penalties will be negotiated, and that's the process that's taking place now.
 
Boba Fetta said:
So Caro is saying in the age, that one of the possible options now is that Essendon retain their 2013 points but don't play in the finals?

How does that work? And for what reason would they do this?
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I can only imagine that "strip the points" means declaring all those games didn't happen? So no Brownlow votes, no best+fairest, no AA, does it impact what players are paid? I don't know. Whereas "keep the point but no finals" means all those games technically happened, it is just the Essendon are not fixtured to play in the finals, another team plays in their place?

There has to be some legalistic-type reason because otherwise is just pathetic semantics.
 

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Warwick Todd said:
The AFL's position isn't strong enough to simply impose the harshest sanctions they can come up with.

Whether people like it or not the penalties will be negotiated, and that's the process that's taking place now.
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We may be about to find out with the AFL threatening to end negotiations and take it to the commission for Essendon to face harsher penalties.
 
PoppedCorn said:
opinion
hird two years
all other coaches one year
doc gets a year too
loss of picks from this year and next years draft
loss of points for next year
5 million $ fine to spread out to other clubs

think will happen
909405.jpg
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"No torture. I don't know what happened. This used to be a fun outfit"
- (Luden, Get Smart Episode 37 - "The Decoy"
 
For those curious as to how and why Essendon are able to negotiate their penalty... let me spell it out a little.

At this point in time, Essendon are not guilty of anything. ASADA have found nothing to charge Essendon with (preliminary). It is all about poor governance and the fact that Essendon allowed an environment to operate in which banned substances could have been taken. There is no proof that banned substances were taken and everything to do with that is speculative. Let me be very, very clear. It is not up to Essendon to prove they did not take banned substances, it is up to ASADA and the AFL to prove they did.

Why the negotiation then? That's a simple one. Because Essendon have not been proven guilty to date the AFL have only been able to accuse them of bringing the game in to disrepute. The penalty for that? Apparently draft picks, Presidents head, Chairmans head, Coaches head and this years points thus eliminating Essendon from finals. What? For what? For Essendon being dragged through the media all year? Adelaide got less for proven cheating. Carlton got less for proven cheating.

The AFL are well aware that their 'bringing the game in to disrepute' is a charge which Essendon can very easily fight in court. It's a paint brush splatter effect and nothing more. It's the AFL trying to regain authority after the witch hunt and search for weapons of mass destruction came up empty. It's crap, quite honestly. The AFL could have done this in April if they wanted to. Why didn't they? Because if they did then Essendon would have known entirely where they stand.... and the entire year would have been a farce. The players would know there are no finals and the fans would have known. The gates would have gone empty at every Essendon game and the AFL would have lost millions. So instead of doing the right thing, the AFL have conned the players and the fans until the last minute and then pulling the rug out from under them. The ASADA interim report has found that to date no players are guilty of taking banned substances, so if they were waiting for that to come out to ban the players and the club then in all rights it should have actually cleared Essendon.

So we have an ASADA interim advising no players took banned substances which leaves us where we were in April, yet Essendon are being banned now... a week before the finals? I've a good mind to ask the AFL for my money back to mis-leading me.

The reason... again, for the negotiation? The AFL need Essendon to accept the charges because if they don't it will be laughed out of the Supreme Court as the AFL have nothing but speculation on their side. Courts operate on facts, not hear-say or innuendo. Essendon understand that the AFL need something to hang their hat on in the eyes of the people, but they're both at odds to exactly what that is. So the 'darkest day in sport' is actually the AFL wasting Essendon's officials and players time for season 2013. The witch-hunt came up empty... let it go Demetrio.

Finally, Nathan Buckley advised last night that before this scandal came out he had no idea what his players were being injected with. He simply entrusted that the people in those medical positions were 'doing the right things'. With that said, should Collingwood not be charged with a lack of governance also? They can't prove Collingwood did or did not cheat with banned substances, just as they've been unable to with Essendon.
 
I am not going to lie, I am not one bit happy with Hirds 12 month sanction (if its accurate that's whats been offered). How can a coach that has 30 odd charges on his name only get 6 months longer then what Steven Trigg got at Adelaide for two offences that were minor in comparison. Just seems badly skewed. I don't like Trigg but I think he has every right to ask for a please explain from the AFL on the justification of a minor penalty of 12 months. I truly don't get it. Dean Bailey got a 16 games for a conversation about tanking. Something just smells.
 
Ari said:
For those curious as to how and why Essendon are able to negotiate their penalty... let me spell it out a little.

At this point in time, Essendon are not guilty of anything. ASADA have found nothing to charge Essendon with (preliminary). It is all about poor governance and the fact that Essendon allowed an environment to operate in which banned substances could have been taken. There is no proof that banned substances were taken and everything to do with that is speculative. Let me be very, very clear. It is not up to Essendon to prove they did not take banned substances, it is up to ASADA and the AFL to prove they did.

Why the negotiation then? That's a simple one. Because Essendon have not been proven guilty to date the AFL have only been able to accuse them of bringing the game in to disrepute. The penalty for that? Apparently draft picks, Presidents head, Chairmans head, Coaches head and this years points thus eliminating Essendon from finals. What? For what? For Essendon being dragged through the media all year? Adelaide got less for proven cheating. Carlton got less for proven cheating.

The AFL are well aware that their 'bringing the game in to disrepute' is a charge which Essendon can very easily fight in court. It's a paint brush splatter effect and nothing more. It's the AFL trying to authority after the witch hunt and search for weapons of mass destruction came up empty. It's crap, quite honestly. The AFL could have done this in April if they wanted to. Why didn't they? Because if they did then Essendon would have known entirely where they stand.... and the entire year would have been a farce. The players would know there are no finals and the fans would have known. The gates would have gone empty at every Essendon game and the AFL would have lost millions. So instead of doing the right thing, the AFL have conned the players and the fans until the last minute and then pulling the rug out from under them. The ASADA interim report has found that to date no players are guilty of taking banned substances, so if they were waiting for that to come out to ban the players and the club then in all rights it should have actually cleared Essendon.

So we have an ASADA interim advising no players took banned substances which leaves us where we were in April, yet Essendon are being banned now... a week before the finals? I've a good mind to ask the AFL for my money back to mis-leading me.

The reason... again, for the negotiation? The AFL need Essendon to accept the charges because if they don't it will be laughed out of the Supreme Court as the AFL have nothing but speculation on their side. Courts operate on facts, not hear-say or innuendo. Essendon understand that the AFL need something to hang their hat on in the eyes of the people, but they're both at odds to exactly what that is. So the 'darkest day in sport' is actually the AFL wasting Essendon's officials and players time for season 2013. The witch-hunt came up empty... let it go Demetrio.

Finally, Nathan Buckley advised last night that before this scandal came out he had no idea what his players were being injected with. He simply entrusted that the people in those medical positions were 'doing the right things'. With that said, should Collingwood not be charged with a lack of governance also? They can't prove Collingwood did or did not cheat with banned substances, just as they've been unable to with Essendon.
Click to expand...


That's two minutes of my life I'll never get back....:(
 
Ari said:
For those curious as to how and why Essendon are able to negotiate their penalty... let me spell it out a little.

At this point in time, Essendon are not guilty of anything. ASADA have found nothing to charge Essendon with (preliminary). It is all about poor governance and the fact that Essendon allowed an environment to operate in which banned substances could have been taken. There is no proof that banned substances were taken and everything to do with that is speculative. Let me be very, very clear. It is not up to Essendon to prove they did not take banned substances, it is up to ASADA and the AFL to prove they did.

Why the negotiation then? That's a simple one. Because Essendon have not been proven guilty to date the AFL have only been able to accuse them of bringing the game in to disrepute. The penalty for that? Apparently draft picks, Presidents head, Chairmans head, Coaches head and this years points thus eliminating Essendon from finals. What? For what? For Essendon being dragged through the media all year? Adelaide got less for proven cheating. Carlton got less for proven cheating.

The AFL are well aware that their 'bringing the game in to disrepute' is a charge which Essendon can very easily fight in court. It's a paint brush splatter effect and nothing more. It's the AFL trying to authority after the witch hunt and search for weapons of mass destruction came up empty. It's crap, quite honestly. The AFL could have done this in April if they wanted to. Why didn't they? Because if they did then Essendon would have known entirely where they stand.... and the entire year would have been a farce. The players would know there are no finals and the fans would have known. The gates would have gone empty at every Essendon game and the AFL would have lost millions. So instead of doing the right thing, the AFL have conned the players and the fans until the last minute and then pulling the rug out from under them. The ASADA interim report has found that to date no players are guilty of taking banned substances, so if they were waiting for that to come out to ban the players and the club then in all rights it should have actually cleared Essendon.

So we have an ASADA interim advising no players took banned substances which leaves us where we were in April, yet Essendon are being banned now... a week before the finals? I've a good mind to ask the AFL for my money back to mis-leading me.

The reason... again, for the negotiation? The AFL need Essendon to accept the charges because if they don't it will be laughed out of the Supreme Court as the AFL have nothing but speculation on their side. Courts operate on facts, not hear-say or innuendo. Essendon understand that the AFL need something to hang their hat on in the eyes of the people, but they're both at odds to exactly what that is. So the 'darkest day in sport' is actually the AFL wasting Essendon's officials and players time for season 2013. The witch-hunt came up empty... let it go Demetrio.

Finally, Nathan Buckley advised last night that before this scandal came out he had no idea what his players were being injected with. He simply entrusted that the people in those medical positions were 'doing the right things'. With that said, should Collingwood not be charged with a lack of governance also? They can't prove Collingwood did or did not cheat with banned substances, just as they've been unable to with Essendon.
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Kinda foolish of the Bombers to even show up to the meeting then?

Why not just let it settle in court so we can all see the "truth"? If you are innocent you do not negotiate over your punishment.
 
I keep seeing the term 'inconceivable' rolled out to describe:
a) the possibility that James Hird deliberately set about to dope his players
b) the liklihood that any were given banned substances
c) that Essendon will stand down James Hird
b) that they will accept any harsh penalties.

I would like to refer all those using the word 'inconceivable' in these contexts to read or watch the Princess Bride by William Goldman
 
Mutt said:
That's two minutes of my life I'll never get back....:(
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Yes, the "but, but Carlton and Adelaide..." argument tends to conveniently forget that neither of those clubs systematically and repeatedly put the health of their own players at risk.
Again, Essendon fans showing they couldn't care less about the players as long as Hirdy's punbishment is as little as possible.
 
Leather Poisoning said:
I just find the poor record keeping so hard to believe.

Expensive peptide products that nobody is keeping track of who receives what in what doses?
A 'pharmacologically experimental' environment where nobody is keeping track of results and doses?
Highly tailored personal regimes that someone forgot to record?
All the care taken to go offsite, inject in amazing volumes and frequency but not enough care take to actually write it down?

Does that sound believable to anyone????
Click to expand...
Not in the slightest.

This is my view too. The absence of records is the single most damning aspect of the whole affair. It lacks any sort of credibility. Moreover, if incompetence was genuinely at the root of it, you would expect to see fingers pointing at who was responsible. The 'competents' would be furious at the 'incompetent/s' for the trouble they had caused. The idea that everybody involved was incompetent is laughable. Nobody likes admitting to being stupid, but it's better than admitting to being deliberately nefarious.
 
adelaidecrows said:
I am not going to lie, I am not one bit happy with Hirds 12 month sanction (if its accurate that's whats been offered). How can a coach that has 30 odd charges on his name only get 6 months longer then what Steven Trigg got at Adelaide for two offences that were minor in comparison. Just seems badly skewed. I don't like Trigg but I think he has every right to ask for a please explain from the AFL on the justification of a minor penalty of 12 months. I truly don't get it. Dean Bailey got a 16 games for a conversation about tanking. Something just smells.
Click to expand...

Trigg should have gotten a year from the AFL and sacked from Adelaide for what he did.
 
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