List Mgmt. 2014 list discussion - drafts, free agents, trades, retirees, delistings and more

[JPod_31]

Should we go after Lucas from Carlton if Adams goes to Collingwood?

 

[Partridge]

West would have done NO BETTER.211 would have killed him, as did Goldstein.

We don't know that though. Can't know that. It's the whole parallel universes thing.

We've just got to hope Simpson is fully fit next year and Vardy plays 20+ games as his backup. One little mentioned positive is that Vardy did get through the year and did manage a few games. Hopefully he's getting closer to becoming more consistent.

 

[Footy Smarts]

i still feel our number one target, be it trade or draft should be a key defender, not a flanker. are there any floating around in the late teens in the draft? sully is a name thrown around on here to bring him in from the vfl squad, what about any of the kids, any value? on that phantom draft on the AFL site i think the kid darcy gardiner was the highest listed KPD at an expected 20, so that would be getable if we dont swap our pick 15/16 for a couple in the late 20's as some are suggesting.

How many key defenders do we really need? It would be pointless getting a mature key defender now since they won't get a game baring numerous injuries. Mitch Brown had as good a year as you could expect for somebody who'd never played key defence before and we had Rivers injured most of the year and he got, what, 2 games in defence all year?

We should definitely get another versatile tall at some point of the draft who can be moulded into a key defender but they'll be a long-term project. We've got Taylor, Rivers and Lonergan who can play key defence and Mackie who played 3rd tall for most of the year and has vastly improved his defensive game. Then we need to give Brown oppourtunities. Hamling's developing nicely and could become a back or forward depending on needs in the future. Sure if we lose 2 Rivers, Lonergan and Taylor together for a big chunk of the season it seriously hurts our chances but we're no worse in that situation than any other team in the league.

Finally we've got a remarkable record when it comes to developing or getting tall defenders in recent times. Scarlett, Egan and Harley were our key pillars in 2007. Just 6 years later we've still got probably the best group of key defenders in the league (Lonergan, Taylor, Rivers) yet none of the original 3 remain. Of the current key defenders 2 of them weren't on our list and 1 of them was in the middle of recovery from a life-threatening injury and was still thought of as a forward. Things change quickly and we're lucky that we should have a couple more years with these 3 over which time we can develop others to take over from them.

 

[year of the cat]

Should we go after Lucas from Carlton if Adams goes to Collingwood?

A pass from me.

 

[Jazz71286]

Should we go after Lucas from Carlton if Adams goes to Collingwood?

No from me, he's a soft outside runner. Probably the opposite of what we want/need.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

West would have done NO BETTER.211 would have killed him, as did Goldstein.

We don't know that though. Can't know that. It's the whole parallel universes thing.
We've just got to hope Simpson is fully fit next year and Vardy plays 20+ games as his backup. One little mentioned positive is that Vardy did get through the year and did manage a few games. Hopefully he's getting closer to becoming more consistent.

not trying to pick a fight just a serious question
in your response that west should have played the inference was that vardy/blicavs were so uncompetitive that west would have done better, but when it was suggested he would have done no better somehow "We don't know that though".

well if we don't know he would done no better then surely we can never know he would had done better.
FWIW at the time i 100% agreed to leave out west.

 

[CatTricks]

Should we go after Lucas from Carlton if Adams goes to Collingwood?

I'd pass too. More of an outside type which we have a bit of already.
Can't see us going after him.. If we did, Mitch Duncan would be rapt. They're good mates.

 

[Footy Smarts]

If Wells doesn't really rate the draft then I'd be pretty keen to look at Jarrad Grant. He looked all but gone earlier in the year when he was struggling in the VFL but when he came back he played 4 or so games of real quality and was important in some of the Dogs' wins (kicked 3 against the Eagles and 4 against the Blues). For some reason they've only offered him a 1 year extension and I don't think he's signed on yet. I'm not sure what they'd want for him but I'd definitely be making the enquiry because his potential is massive.

 

[Cursed Cat]

We don't know that though. Can't know that. It's the whole parallel universes thing.

We've just got to hope Simpson is fully fit next year and Vardy plays 20+ games as his backup. One little mentioned positive is that Vardy did get through the year and did manage a few games. Hopefully he's getting closer to becoming more consistent.

in a parallel universe Trent West served as the #1 ruckman during the finals, and did bugger all, same as the rest of his career.

to even suggest his selection would have made any difference is laughable, I'd be surprised if he was a Cat next year, then again I'd be equally surprised if any of the other 17 clubs were interested in picking him up.

a plodder.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Should we go after Lucas from Carlton if Adams goes to Collingwood?

Definite no. People get taken by his running ability but his disposal is very ordinary and from what I've seen he's a really poor decision maker.

 

[hbk_aus]

Definite no. People get taken by his running ability but his disposal is very ordinary and from what I've seen he's a really poor decision maker.

Yep, all of that.

 

[cats_09]

Definite no. People get taken by his running ability but his disposal is very ordinary and from what I've seen he's a really poor decision maker.

Are we describing Lucas or Varcoe?

 

[Go_Blues!]

Should we go after Lucas from Carlton if Adams goes to Collingwood?

Personally, I'd be pretty surprised if you went for Lucas. Might end up being a very good player, and being at Geelong might be the best chance for him to become a very good player, but does not seem to subscribe to what I understand as the Geelong ethos. He is an elite runner, very much an outside player (not saying he is soft but.....he does like it out of the traffic), very good decision maker and disposal when in space, when the pressure is on he is more unreliable. The defensive part of his game needs some work also. So, in short, I think Lucus is best off where he is (we would want late first round pick given what we would call his potential, and I just dont see other clubs rating him that hightly), until he can round out his game a bit.

 

[Nicko29]

Should we go after Lucas from Carlton if Adams goes to Collingwood?

Racks up an absolute crap load of uncontested possession (not so much contested), but ordinary disposal is a knock on that and seems pretty soft as well. I think that we could fix some of that but I would only pick him if we trade Varcoe for either a player or a high draft pick, then pick up Lucas for a low one (3rd-4th rounder) as I could see Lucas replacing Varcoe in the team (and not as a whipping boy but in terms of as an uncontested outside runner), but Murdoch, Smedts etc would probably be better prospects (though they don't get anywhere near as much ball).

 

[Nicko29]

If Wells doesn't really rate the draft then I'd be pretty keen to look at Jarrad Grant. He looked all but gone earlier in the year when he was struggling in the VFL but when he came back he played 4 or so games of real quality and was important in some of the Dogs' wins (kicked 3 against the Eagles and 4 against the Blues). For some reason they've only offered him a 1 year extension and I don't think he's signed on yet. I'm not sure what they'd want for him but I'd definitely be making the enquiry because his potential is massive.

Would definitely be an interesting prospect and can see him having a big impact next year, as he hits prime time for KPP. I reckon he would be an excellent pick up especially considering Hawkins current state.

 

[vinum coupe]

If we dont get the Shaw/Adams deals done I think we should just hit the draft.
There's enough talent in the squad to get the job done.

 

[rooie]

How many key defenders do we really need?

i guess i don't see mackie, brown and rivers as key defenders but rather 3rd or even 4th medium talls. i am talking about lonergans replacement, so at most about 25 years old, but preferably a kid to develop.
lonners has at most 2 years left, alot of folk have called for his retirement this year, but i think he has one or two left in him, but we need someone ready to roll when he is finished.

 

[fpm84]

in a parallel universe Trent West served as the #1 ruckman during the finals, and did bugger all, same as the rest of his career.

to even suggest his selection would have made any difference is laughable, I'd be surprised if he was a Cat next year, then again I'd be equally surprised if any of the other 17 clubs were interested in picking him up.

a plodder.

Whether or not he's a 'plodder,' West is at least a ruckman.

Our 'rucks' in the finals were Vardy, a key forward, and Blicavs, a tall athletic guy who is most certainly not a ruckman and who may be a star in two years but is equally as likely to not be on our list.

I agree with Partridge that not selecting West that day was absolute insanity.

When Hawkins was a late out, it should have been West in as number one ruck and Vardy to the forward line. Does anybody want to argue West wouldn't have had more of an impact in the middle, and that Vardy wouldn't have done more than Walker up forward that day?

Thought not.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Would definitely be an interesting prospect and can see him having a big impact next year, as he hits prime time for KPP. I reckon he would be an excellent pick up especially considering Hawkins current state.

He's not really a key forward though. If we go after Grant it would probably to play as a mobile 3rd tall who has more ground level ability than say a Kersten. He could also play as an outside midfielder a bit like Murdoch's been trying to play as. If we can get his defensive positioning right there are a whole range of positions he could go to. But if we think he's going to be a mark and goal key forward we'll be massively disappointed. Trying to turn him in to that at the Dogs almost ended his career under Eade.

 

[rooie]

Whether or not he's a 'plodder,' West is at least a ruckman.

and a premiership ruckman to boot.

funny but West and Ottens stats in the 11 GF are almost identical, one a hero, the other a whipping boy.

i am not saying West is anywhere near Ottens, i think he is at best a no.2 ruckman, but when you don't have a fit no.1, to play a forward and a utility instead of a premiership ruckman is bizarre.

it should have been west and vardy or west and blitz. or even hawkins out, west, blitz and vardy.

oh well, the MC made the call, maybe we still would have lost, but far out, it was a big risk they took and it didn't pay off.

 

[Nicko29]

Pity Michael Talia was re-signed today. Would have been interested in him coming down the highway.

 

[fpm84]

I like Jarrad Grant. He had a really good season playing second fiddle to Hall (2010?) but lost his way when Hall retired as the Dogs' forward line was a shambles and he was attracting the best defender. Showed a bit in the second half of this season after he was recalled from the VFL. Heaps of talent but can go missing a bit.

Can't imagine the Dogs would give him away cheaply given the amount they've invested in him.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Whether or not he's a 'plodder,' West is at least a ruckman.

Our 'rucks' in the finals were Vardy, a key forward, and Blicavs, a tall athletic guy who is most certainly not a ruckman and who may be a star in two years but is equally as likely to not be on our list.

I agree with Partridge that not selecting West that day was absolute insanity.

When Hawkins was a late out, it should have been West in as number one ruck and Vardy to the forward line. Does anybody want to argue West wouldn't have had more of an impact in the middle, and that Vardy wouldn't have done more than Walker up forward that day?

Thought not.

I'd argue that West has never had an impact full stop.
He's rucked for the past couple of years, in previous seasons he was parked at CHB in the VFL for periods; he's no more or less a ruckman than Vardy or Blicavs, he's played 50+ games and never shown much.

Now we have two ruckmen-sized players (all three players are listed @ 198cms), who have played just 20 games apiece, but both of whom have shown vastly more potential than West.
Aside from the potential, the actual performances from these two were in no way eclipsed by West. Otherwise West would obviously have held his spot in the team.

So now we have two young players *with finals experience* on our list, both equally capable of rendering West irrelevant.

I like what West was able to do for a handful of games in 2011, and I thought he battled pretty manfully in 2012 (although he nearly always lost).

We've seen the best West has to offer. It's mediocre at best. That's being generous.

You might reckon he'd have performed better as the #1 ruckman during the finals series fpm84, but I think the complete opposite, his pure shiteness would have further unstabalised the side; he *was* given opportunities throughout the year and didn't do enough to keep from being overtaken.

People may point to his hit-out averages.
People with eyes may respond that it's one thing to get your hand to the ball, quite another thing to actually palm it to your team's advantage.

 

[Partridge]

not trying to pick a fight just a serious question
in your response that west should have played the inference was that vardy/blicavs were so uncompetitive that west would have done better, but when it was suggested he would have done no better somehow "We don't know that though".

well if we don't know he would done no better then surely we can never know he would had done better.
FWIW at the time i 100% agreed to leave out west.

No my meaning of "we don't know that" was in response to Veedubs stating definitively, as others have, that West wouldn't have done better. I would argue pretty strongly he would have. He has in the past.

 

[Partridge]

in a parallel universe Trent West served as the #1 ruckman during the finals, and did bugger all, same as the rest of his career.

to even suggest his selection would have made any difference is laughable, I'd be surprised if he was a Cat next year, then again I'd be equally surprised if any of the other 17 clubs were interested in picking him up.

a plodder.

So, even after the Fremantle obliteration, do you think Vardy AND Blicavs are better ruckmen? Right now?

If West is a plodder I'd hate to think what the other two are.