The race for the top 4

[Number37]

Clarkson, Bomber, Malthouse, Roos, Scott, Lomgmire are so far ahead of him it's not funny.

You may not like his game plan, but Ross Lyon is an outstanding coach.
IMO better than Clarkson, Bomber and definitely miles better than Scott (both of them)
Malthouse is a stupid old prick but you can't fault his coaching.

 

[Number37]

Hawks will finish top 2, Port and Hawks top 2, Sydney third and cats and dockers to fight it out for 4th.

Hawks have to at least beat Sydney, Freo and Geelong to finish top 2.
Sydney have to at least beat Hawks and Port to finish top 2

Sydney will finish above Hawks on the ladder.

 

[thetradesman]

You may not like his game plan, but Ross Lyon is an outstanding coach.
IMO better than Clarkson, Bomber and definitely miles better than Scott (both of them)
Malthouse is a stupid old prick but you can't fault his coaching.

Clarkson 2 premierships, Bomber 2, Scott 1, Lomgmire 1, Roos 1, are all better because they have WON a premiership.

 

[AstonSouffle]

Hawks will finish top 2, Port and Hawks top 2, Sydney third and cats and dockers to fight it out for 4th.

You do realise Hawthorn has to pretty much win every game from here on for that to be a lock, no disrespect to Hawthorn but I don't consider them demi gods that could brush aside all four of Sydney, Geelong, Freo and Collingwood with ease. Plus there's Adelaide and North, that might pose bogey teams.

 

[thetradesman]

Hawks have to at least beat Sydney, Freo and Geelong to finish top 2.
Sydney have to at least beat Hawks and Port to finish top 2

Sydney will finish above Hawks on the ladder.

Hawks will beat All of them I feel.

 

[Gunstall19]

You do realise Hawthorn has to pretty much win every game from here on for that to be a lock, no disrespect to Hawthorn but I don't consider them demi gods that could brush aside all four of Sydney, Geelong, Freo and Collingwood with ease. Plus there's Adelaide and North, that might pose bogey teams.

Freo and Collingwood are locks. Us at full strength better than Sydney as well. Probably lose to Geelong though.

 

[estibador]

Clarkson 2 premierships, Bomber 2, Scott 1, Lomgmire 1, Roos 1, are all better because they have WON a premiership.

Quality in-depth analysis.

Roos was a Leo Barry mark away from not having one, then all of a sudden you wouldn't rate him as highly even though his coaching quality would be exactly the same as it is now.

 

[Duskfire]

Quality in-depth analysis.

Roos was a Leo Barry mark away from not having one, then all of a sudden you wouldn't rate him as highly even though his coaching quality would be exactly the same as it is now.

But how else does one define a coach then? Lyon isn't a terrible coach by any means, but to claim that he is better then coaches such as Clarkson and Bomber is really really pushing it. Coaches are defined by their success, much like teams they coach in the first place. Otherwise, how else does one grade said coaches? Even if we look at it another way - Lyon left a horrible horrible legacy at the Saints; Bomber left a lasting foundation at Geelong that exists to this day. Clarkson will be the same, when he leaves the Hawks, that team will benefit from what he contributed and influenced for years afterwards. Roos is the same; helped forge what Sydney is, and he will do the same with Melbourne. Those are good coaches, so how can one argue that Lyon is better then them when all evidence suggests otherwise?

 

[Clems Knee]

But how else does one define a coach then? Lyon isn't a terrible coach by any means, but to claim that he is better then coaches such as Clarkson and Bomber is really really pushing it. Coaches are defined by their success, much like teams they coach in the first place. Otherwise, how else does one grade said coaches? Even if we look at it another way - Lyon left a horrible horrible legacy at the Saints; Bomber left a lasting foundation at Geelong that exists to this day. Clarkson will be the same, when he leaves the Hawks, that team will benefit from what he contributed and influenced for years afterwards. Roos is the same; helped forge what Sydney is, and he will do the same with Melbourne. Those are good coaches, so how can one argue that Lyon is better then them when all evidence suggests otherwise?

I agree to an extent:
Clarkson is clearly no. 1. Premierships from a rebuild and a mini rebuild, and has the wood over us at the moment.
Thompson left a legacy at Geelong, but is lowering his colours this year.
Lyon is a damn good coach, probably on a par with Roos, Longmire and Hinkley. Problem with Saints, is they got a very bad coach whose first act was to tear down the structures that Lyon built. Can't blame Lyon for all that. He has turned Freo around to being a consistent, achieving club.

The Scotts are about the same. Teams are very different, but both on autopilot. I'd give a lot of credit to Thompson for the third Geelong flag. Though he managed his stars well.

So we can grade coaches on how much difference they make?

 

[seysearles]

Hawks have to at least beat Sydney, Freo and Geelong to finish top 2.
Sydney have to at least beat Hawks and Port to finish top 2

Sydney will finish above Hawks on the ladder.

If we beat you in rd.18 we would be a game and % ahead of you which means we could lose to either Freo or Geelong and still be ahead of you even if you win all of your other games. That game will decide who finishes higher. You can say the same about Hawks v Freo and Sydney v Port also.

 

[seysearles]

You do realise Hawthorn has to pretty much win every game from here on for that to be a lock, no disrespect to Hawthorn but I don't consider them demi gods that could brush aside all four of Sydney, Geelong, Freo and Collingwood with ease. Plus there's Adelaide and North, that might pose bogey teams.

We don't have to beat all those teams to finish top.2. If we beat Sydney and Freo we could lose the other 2 and we would in all liklihood still finish top.2. There is a good chance we could beat one of them and still finish top.2 also. As i said in the post above, it will come down to the results between the competing teams (Hawks, Port, Swans and Dockers).

 

[MinerBoy]

The Swans midfield really doesn't compare to Freos. I really hope we get to play them in the finals.

Because it's better?

Anyway, it's a Hawks v Freo GF again so you can all relax now.

Different result this time though.














We win this one huge.

 

[Leg End]

Because it's better?

Anyway, it's a Hawks v Freo GF again so you can all relax now.

Different result this time though.














We win this one huge.

Swans Freo GF - Swans by 21.

 

[MinerBoy]

Swans Freo GF - Swans by 21.

Nah, the predictor clearly showed you losing at the G in the PF

 

[Syd]

Quality in-depth analysis.

Roos was a Leo Barry mark away from not having one, then all of a sudden you wouldn't rate him as highly even though his coaching quality would be exactly the same as it is now.

And potentially only seconds away from another one in 2006 with the ball in the Swans forward pocket when time ran out.
Then all of a sudden you'd rate him twice as highly?

Great coach and motivator.

 

[The Swans Blog]

God you're a doofus.

He's this guy!?

 

[The Swans Blog]

Wow so original, haven't seen this like a dozen times already in the last 3 weeks.

 

[Jack Gun Cyril Stun]

You do realise Hawthorn has to pretty much win every game from here on for that to be a lock, no disrespect to Hawthorn but I don't consider them demi gods that could brush aside all four of Sydney, Geelong, Freo and Collingwood with ease. Plus there's Adelaide and North, that might pose bogey teams.

Have to agree, and with injuries as they are, anyone could finish anywhere in the top 4, but still think the flag will only be won by Freo, Swans or us. Just cant see Port or Geel (even if finish top 4 as draw favourable but form so so) beating all of those prev 3 to win it.

 

[estibador]

But how else does one define a coach then? Lyon isn't a terrible coach by any means, but to claim that he is better then coaches such as Clarkson and Bomber is really really pushing it. Coaches are defined by their success, much like teams they coach in the first place. Otherwise, how else does one grade said coaches? Even if we look at it another way - Lyon left a horrible horrible legacy at the Saints; Bomber left a lasting foundation at Geelong that exists to this day. Clarkson will be the same, when he leaves the Hawks, that team will benefit from what he contributed and influenced for years afterwards. Roos is the same; helped forge what Sydney is, and he will do the same with Melbourne. Those are good coaches, so how can one argue that Lyon is better then them when all evidence suggests otherwise?

Any sort of argument like you've just given is fine, it's just people who reduce their 'analysis' to 'he won x amount of premierships so he must automatically be x amount better than this other coach' that I scoff at. Particularly when the difference between winning and losing has been so negligible for coaches like Roos and Lyon.

Fwiw I think it's pretty tough to claim anyone is better than Clarkson at this stage, but a couple of things count against Bomber for me:

- the fact that Scott was able to come in and win a premiership straight away with the same group of players. Makes me wonder whether Bomber was really coaching them to play above their ability (which is the sign of a truly great coach) or whether he was just the figurehead of a Globetrotters-esque group
- some of the insipid displays Essendon have put up with him in charge. I think they'd be doing better under Lyon.

 

[estibador]

And potentially only seconds away from another one in 2006 with the ball in the Swans forward pocket when time ran out.
Then all of a sudden you'd rate him twice as highly?

Great coach and motivator.

By 'you' I take it you mean the guy I was quoting?

Because I agree with your point - if a bit of luck had gone your way and Roos had won that second premiership it wouldn't suddenly make him a better coach than he already is.

 

[Syd]

By 'you' I take it you mean the guy I was quoting?

Because I agree with your point - if a bit of luck had gone your way and Roos had won that second premiership it wouldn't suddenly make him a better coach than he already is.

The generic "you" as in everyone.

 

[Angus Young]

I reakon sydney and freo are the only locks with hawks cats and power fighting for other spots

 

[Hawkers]

You can't ignore the soft fixture from here on in for Sydney and Fremantle.

Port might upset the applecart for them, Hawks less so

 

[SuperSub17]

Read through the last few pages of this thread...and then wished I hadn't.

 

[Jack Gun Cyril Stun]

Any sort of argument like you've just given is fine, it's just people who reduce their 'analysis' to 'he won x amount of premierships so he must automatically be x amount better than this other coach' that I scoff at. Particularly when the difference between winning and losing has been so negligible for coaches like Roos and Lyon.

Fwiw I think it's pretty tough to claim anyone is better than Clarkson at this stage, but a couple of things count against Bomber for me:

- the fact that Scott was able to come in and win a premiership straight away with the same group of players. Makes me wonder whether Bomber was really coaching them to play above their ability (which is the sign of a truly great coach) or whether he was just the figurehead of a Globetrotters-esque group
- some of the insipid displays Essendon have put up with him in charge. I think they'd be doing better under Lyon.

Raises some doubts about where Scott sits, probably too early to tell with him as he came into an incredibly well established and successful structure and didn't have anything to do with building, moulding that list, so wouldn't class him better than Lyon just because he has a flag and latter doesn't. Lyon has made GFs with two different teams, how many coaches have done that and been that close and just imho but both times I reckon he had the inferior playing list with saints v cats/pies.
Anyway, if we cant win it this year I hope and expect you guys do and luck prob has to bounce Lyons way once.