Traded James Aish [traded to Collingwood for #26 and St Kilda's 2016 second round pick]

[Hollow Knight]

I reckon Paparone would be his competition in the side. I keep hearing that Oxley is a great intercept mark yet at round 10 (which includes 2/3 games where Oxley has taken more than 4 marks this season), he'd taken 14 intercept marks to Paparone's 22.

Yeah, more than happy with the intercept marking of Paparone and Andrews.

 

[Mr.X]

Agree with Matthews on this.

Time for clubs to take a stand on guys who want to walk out when they feel like a change.

Club is always bigger than the individual

 

[Roylion]

Matthews didn't say anything about win/win,

"The concept of trading is everyone wins.......
- Leigh Matthews. October 8th 2015.

 

[Hollow Knight]

"The concept of trading is everyone wins.......
- Leigh Matthews. October 8th 2015.

Yeah, and also expressed the sentiment that we can't just keep downgrading draft picks every year, intimating that if we could get quality mature best 22 in return it might be less of a backward step. People say he has been utterly explicit in the "no trading" thing but there is quite a bit there if you read between the lines too.

 

[boxy99]

Agree with Matthews on this.

Time for clubs to take a stand on guys who want to walk out when they feel like a change.

Club is always bigger than the individual

Yeah you would say that so you can get him for nothing!

 

[Mr.X]

Yeah you would say that so you can get him for nothing!

Nope, best thing is for him to stay at Brisbane.

 

[Vankri]

"The concept of trading is everyone wins.......
- Leigh Matthews. October 8th 2015.

You should at least try to be honest and show the the rest of the sentence in which he says there is no winning when trading out young talent. Hence the clear stance of Brisbane or the draft from him and Swann.

 

[boxy99]

Nope, best thing is for him to stay at Brisbane.

That's a boring answer! You need to read through this thread a bit more! It's a thread full of petty arguments

 

[Roylion]

You should at least try to be honest and show the the rest of the sentence in which he says there is no winning when trading out young talent. Hence the clear stance of Brisbane or the draft from him and Swann.

I think Matthews left it open enough to suggest that if the Lions gain a 'win' for their club out of trading Aish, then a trade might be possible. "The concept of trading is everyone wins."

Even Pickering has admitted that Collingwood will need to propose a trade in which that scenario happens. If it doesn't happen, I'm sure Brisbane will be warmly inviting Aish to re-sign with the Lions. And that would be a definite win for Brisbane. On a number of levels.

 

[Mr.X]

That's a boring answer! You need to read through this thread a bit more! It's a thread full of petty arguments

ok, here goes...

We deserve Aish for nothing cause Brisbane's flukey win against the dogs made Carlton come last.
Aish is fair compensation for the spoon

 

[Bay Pie]

How would we know? I'm not across (or even particularly interested) in who or what other clubs might or might not select in the draft.

Aish is a former No. 7 pick, 19 years of age with 32 senior games under his belt. Twice U18 All Australian in 2012 and 2013. Now if clubs want to take a player whose had two years experience in the system ahead of an 18 year old somewhere in the first round for a pick, then they'll do so.

Likely draft order might be:

1. Carlton (Weitering or Schache) - 3,000
2. Brisbane Lions (Schache or Weitering) - 2,517
3. Gold Coast - 2,234
4. Essendon - 2,034
5. Essendon (from St Kilda for Carlisle) - 1,878
6. Melbourne - 1,751
7. GWS (from Collingwood for Treloar) - 1,644
8. GWS - 1,551
9. Adelaide (from Geelong for Dangerfield) - 1,469
10. Port Adelaide - 1,395
11. Western Bulldogs - 1,329
12. Richmond - 1,268
13. Adelaide - 1,212
14. Sydney - 1,161
15. North Melbourne 1,112
16. Fremantle - 1,067
17. West Coast (Brisbane in possible Redden trade?) - 1,025
18. Hawthorn - 985
19. Gold Coast (comp.) - 948
20. Carlton - 912
21. Brisbane Lions - 878
22. Brisbane Lions (Leuenberger Band 3) - 845
23. Gold Coast - 815
24. Essendon - 785
25. Collingwood - 756 (from St Kilda Freeman trade)
26. Melbourne - 729
27. Collingwood - 703

If Collingwood think he'll slip through to 25 in the National Draft then all they need to do is make trade offers that they know Brisbane won't accept and take their chances. Keep 7 and take him there.

Nice reply. Not sure why we'd make trade offers though as Brisbane has said he won't be traded. It's more about getting into a position to be confident that he could slide to our pick in the ND.

I agree, I don't think he'd last to our pick in the 2nd round. We've got a bit of work to do.

 

[boxy99]

ok, here goes...

We deserve Aish for nothing cause Brisbane's flukey win against the dogs made Carlton come last.
Aish is fair compensation for the spoon

Feels better to tell the truth hey

 

[Roylion]

I agree, I don't think he'd last to our pick in the 2nd round. We've got a bit of work to do.

Then if that's the case, you would think he's worth more than a second round DP, or even a couple of second round DP's.

 

[Vankri]

I think Matthews left it open enough to suggest that if the Lions gain a 'win' for their club out of trading Aish, then a trade might be possible. "The concept of trading is everyone wins."

Even Pickering has admitted that Collingwood will need to propose a trade in which that scenario happens. If it doesn't happen, I'm sure Brisbane will be warmly inviting Aish to re-sign with the Lions. And that would be a definite win for Brisbane. On a number of levels.

I think you want to believe that Matthews left it open because you'd like to think your club is very professional and well run. But the fact is he didn't and Brisbane either look stupid because they are punishing a player wanting out as well as themselves which will not solve anything, or they look clumsy because they went extremely narrow extremely quick before the start of trade week saying Aish should go to the draft and won't be traded. Here's the full sentence and more for those of us who are being honest in this debate:

"The concept of trading is that everyone wins, the Brisbane Lions have pretty much a policy decision that trading your young players … you can't win. Therefore, don't trade them. You can't make them play for you and an uncontracted player, after the trade period, if they want to can still put themselves in the normal draft. That's the decision James will have if he chooses that" Leigh Matthews

"James Aish will either be playing at the Lions or he'll be going into the draft, he won't be traded, that I can guarantee you" Leigh Matthews.

"We understand his position, but the club has no intention of trading James" Greg Swann.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I think you want to believe that Matthews left it open because you'd like to think your club is very professional and well run.

On the flipside, I could suggest that you want to believe that Matthews statement is unequivocal and not just a bargaining technique because you want to believe we are a rabble with no clear strategy and a slave to our own egos.

Again, Pert's "we will be ending all discussions with Brisbane at Friday 5pm" claim was taken as unequivocal by Pies supporters too, and was shown in time to just be a negotiating tactic.

Why is it impossible for you to see Matthews' statement in a similar way?

 

[scott_the_man]

Aish for sidebottom straight swap

 

[Doctor Bombay]

The whole AFL is a restraint of trade. There will be signficant dealings behind the scenes between Brisbane, the AFL, the PA & Collingwood in this deal.

The AFL will rightfully ask Brisbane why you asked for a Priority Pick two weeks ago and are knocking back a potential fair and equitable trade for one of the players who has walked out.

No they wont! If the parties can't reach an amicable decision then obviously one party doesn't see it as being fair and equitable.. it can go to mediation but there are no guarantees.

 

[Roylion]

I think you want to believe that Matthews left it open because you'd like to think your club is very professional and well run.

If your club proposes a win/win trade for Aish, then we'll see won't we?

But the fact is he didn't and Brisbane either look stupid because they are punishing a player wanting out as well as themselves which will not solve anything, or they look clumsy because they went extremely narrow extremely quick before the start of trade week saying Aish should go to the draft and won't be traded. Here's the full sentence and more for those of us who are being honest in this debate:

"The concept of trading is that everyone wins, the Brisbane Lions have pretty much a policy decision that trading your young players … you can't win. Therefore, don't trade them. You can't make them play for you and an uncontracted player, after the trade period, if they want to can still put themselves in the normal draft. That's the decision James will have if he chooses that" Leigh Matthews

"James Aish will either be playing at the Lions or he'll be going into the draft, he won't be traded, that I can guarantee you" Leigh Matthews.

"We understand his position, but the club has no intention of trading James" Greg Swann.

Then James Aish has two options open to him.

1. He re-signs at the Brisbane Lions, where he will be warmly welcomed. A definite win for Brisbane, (on a couple of levels) considering Matthews anointed him as a possible future captain in the same interview.
2. He enters the draft, where going on current and mooted trade deals, he will have to be overlooked 24 times before Collingwood have an option to select him.

 

[boxy99]

Aish for sidebottom straight swap

Aish won't be traded! How many times do we have to tell you guys!

 

[Dependlebury]

Just like our ultimatum to BL last year, the 'deadline', I'm confident Brisbane are doing something similar here. They aren't masochistic enough to let him walk.

 

[Vankri]

On the flipside, I could suggest that you want to believe that Matthews statement is unequivocal and not just a bargaining technique because you want to believe we are a rabble with no clear strategy and a slave to our own egos.

Again, Pert's "we will be ending all discussions with Brisbane at Friday 5pm" claim was taken as unequivocal by Pies supporters too, and was shown in time to just be a negotiating tactic.

Why is it impossible for you to see Matthews' statement in a similar way?

You could suggest that but you'd just be using a rhetorical trick using my turn of sentence against me rather than looking at the facts. Read the Matthews statements I copied and pasted above and tell me where the openness is. They are very narrow, direct and uncompromising.

The 5pm claim was a negotiating tactic used during trade period, and it was never directed at Beams the player but at your club. Matthews stance is directed at Aish and came before any official Collingwood offer could have been made.

The consequences are different too, saying 'Aish will never be traded' and trading him doesn't have the same PR repercussions as saying Beams won't be traded after 5pm then trading him later.

 

[Hollow Knight]

The 5pm claim was a negotiating tactic used during trade period, and it was never directed at Beams the player but at your club. Matthews stance is directed at Aish and came before any official Collingwood offer could have been made.

I thought we were discussing whether it was an idle threat or not, not whether it's an effective one. The latter can only be judged in hindsight.

As for our language, I can still see plenty of implicit disclaimers around it that allow us to sell a backflip and eventual trade, while also still giving us the ability to follow through with the PSD if Collingwood insist on taking the piss with their "fair and equitable" trade offers.

But if a trade gets done, by its very nature, the play still requires us to take a slight reputation hit (as Collingwood did with the deadline threat) in exchange for forcing a better trade result. That's the cost of doing business.

My read of the play is here.

I am strongly reminded of the Taiwan arms deal episode of the West Wing (aka the Chess episode) . You set up the play to get the result you want and make everyone feel like they have saved some face.

Sam Seaborn: I’d like to try it without looking at the note.
President Bartlet: Okay.
Sam Seaborn: China agrees to stand down the war games.
President Bartlet: Right.
Sam Seaborn: And they agree to let Taiwan test the Patriots. One Patriot.
President Bartlet: Yes.
Sam Seaborn: And we... Please, I want to be right about this. We agree not to sell Taiwan the Aegis Destroyers for a period of... I don’t know... five years.
President Bartlet: Ten years, but you’ve got it.
Sam Seaborn: Sir, the Aegis... the Aegis radar technology isn’t something that... I mean, what if Taiwan did fall to China? Now they have – plus these ships cost something like $800 million apiece. Buying four of them would eat half of Taiwan’s defense budget.
President Bartlet: And so...
Sam Seaborn: You never were going to sell them the destroyers.
President Bartlet: [shakes his head] But everybody wakes up alive in the morning and saves a little face.
Sam Seaborn: [amazed] I don’t know how you... I don’t know the word, I... don’t know how you do it.
President Bartlet: You have a lot of help. You listen to everybody and then you call the play. [rises to his feet] Sam. You’re gonna run for President one day. Don’t be scared. You can do it. I believe in you. [looks at the board] That’s checkmate.

Goddamn I love that show.

"Take a look at the whole board".

 

[mpal6]

I applaud Brisbanes decision. They are well within their rights to send him to the draft. No trading, fair enough, let's all move on to what happens after the end of trade period.

What pick do you think Aisho slides to in the National Draft ?

I'm really struggling to get an answer on this one from Brisbane supporters. Why?

Crows may come to play with one of the Dangerfield picks. I believe that's the answer you are looking for.

If the uncertainty continues for Aish, going "home" or signing up with us again will look enticing. We have to let it play out.

Our media releases have been very gentle on Aish, inviting him to sign with us inspite of him saying he wants a trade. This option is still open in my opinion.

 

[unplugged]

"The concept of trading is everyone wins.......
- Leigh Matthews. October 8th 2015.

Obviously, at least before hindsight kicks into gear.

It's funny how so many Brisbane fans seem to be so invested in what Grandpa Matthews has moaned about.

I dunno what his specific role is, but if Eddie or Gary Pert came out and said Freeman would not be traded, I'd want them to shut up and let the real team handle it.

Just because you've been stiff of recent years with retaining players, it doesn't mean you have right to use Aish as a scapegoat.

A deal will be done, and as you eluded to, it'll be fair. Fair for both teams.

If Aish was under contract I'd fully expect us to be ripped off in order to get what we want.

 

[Vankri]

I thought we were discussing whether it was an idle threat or not, not whether it's an effective one. The latter can only be judged in hindsight.

As for our language, I can still see plenty of implicit disclaimers around it that allow us to sell a backflip and eventual trade, while also still giving us the ability to follow through with the PSD if Collingwood insist on taking the piss with their "fair and equitable" trade offers.

But if a trade gets done, by its very nature, the play still requires us to take a slight reputation hit (as Collingwood did with the deadline threat) in exchange for forcing a better trade result. That's the cost of doing business.

My read of the play is here.

Every trade is made through negotiations and clubs try to agree on what a good trade is, but discussions don't start by an ultimatum directed at the individual player saying they either re-sign or get sent to the draft, if there's a hard stance it's directed at the rival club. Matthews made a statement to Aish and a stance about not trading young players and Collingwood could not at the time have made an official trade offer to the Lions. I'm not sure where you're getting that we're taking the piss with our offers because there has been no official one, not even a journalist claiming to have the inside word on what we've offered. In the end if it's all just posturing from your CEO and board director I'd be happy because it means my club gets a chance to trade for the player we want rather than hope to be the first to pick him in the draft, but it will make the whole Matthews speech look stupid.