Opinion Chris Scott's coaching - Part 1 [closed, see Part II]

[David the Cat]

I really regret ever starting this thread.

So it was you!!!!!

 

[BlightysCats]

You don't think that ANY of this has ANYTHING to do with a young group of players improving in some of the areas of the game where it is generally accepted that players take a bit of time to improve? Or ANYTHING to do with having a settled ruck structure?

Sure, it has a role to play in it but so do our systems, that's all I'm saying and I'm sorry if you got the impression I was saying it's ALL the coaches. However my main point with what I said was that even when we had a strong team under Scott in 2011,12,13,14 and we were making the top 4 there were certain trends in our system you can see through the stats, these have changed completely with the arrival of Lloyd and I'm just trying to show that we have significantly changed the way we play since his arrival, as well as improved our playing list. All of it combined is helping our rise up the ladder and it is by no means the arrival of one individual that has completely turned our fortunes around alone, but it's still been of some significance and important in our turnaround.

 

[BlightysCats]

The crux of it comes down to.
1. I don't agree with Blightycat that Scott has changed his systems or that his system involves being weak in contested ball.
2. I don't agree with Blightycat that Lloyd brought a more contested brand of football
3. I don't agree with Blightycat that we are playing a different style of football

Same system, same style with the same emphasis on contested footy IMO. We just finally got people that are better in those areas. I don't like the way he presents it as fact that can "clearly be seen". I see opinions built off of dubious hearsay evidence and inaccurate facts. In 2011 we were 3rd for contested possessions, at the moment we are 5th.

In 2011 we were 3rd for contested possessions v opponent, but where were we in 2012,13,14,? Years where we finished in the finals and made top 4 with a strong list? Where were we in 2011,12,13,14 with clearances v opponent. That's my point, the stats show it was our style of play not just the cattle that we had available! Also look during those years at Fremantle's cp and clearance stats v opponent in the same areas...coincidently they seem to match up pretty well with where ours are so far in 2016. The stats don't lie and they point to the areas that Lloyd would've said needed changing upon his arrival, and that he has since changed. We basically set up defensively the same as Freo used to in recent years but with the attacking flair of Scott's teams when we win possession. We desperately needed our defensive systems changed and for mine it's a best of both worlds scenario now, rather than the downhill skiing mentality we too frequently had in the past 4 seasons.

 

[catempire]

In 2011 we were 3rd for contested possessions v opponent, but where were we in 2012,13,14,? Years where we finished in the finals and made top 4 with a strong list? Where were we in 2011,12,13,14 with clearances v opponent. That's my point, the stats show it was our style of play not just the cattle that we had available! Also look during those years at Fremantle's cp and clearance stats v opponent in the same areas...coincidently they seem to match up pretty well with where ours are so far in 2016. The stats don't lie and they point to the areas that Lloyd would've said needed changing upon his arrival, and that he has since changed. We basically set up defensively the same as Freo used to in recent years but with the attacking flair of Scott's teams when we win possession. We desperately needed our defensive systems changed and for mine it's a best of both worlds scenario now, rather than the downhill skiing mentality we too frequently had in the past 4 seasons.

I agree. It really was a remarkable coaching effort by Scott to get us to finals in 2012-14 given how poor our midfield was.

 

[BlightysCats]

I agree. It really was a remarkable coaching effort by Scott to get us to finals in 2012-14 given how poor our midfield was.

Our midfield wasn't poor that's the thing, it's just Scott's system. Ringing the contests trying to create turnovers to win the ball rather than winning cp's and clearances, setting up zones with holes everywhere in them, players lacking discipline defensively, and being allowed to get away with weak defensive efforts, it's all changed.

 

[catempire]

Our midfield wasn't poor that's the thing, it's just Scott's system. Ringing the contests trying to create turnovers to win the ball rather than winning cp's and clearances, setting up zones with holes everywhere in them, players lacking discipline defensively, and being allowed to get away with weak defensive efforts, it's all changed.

You can believe that if you want. Basically you're saying that Scott deliberately coached a quality midfield to lose the contested possessions and clearances badly and regularly. Pardon the rest of us if we find that a little hard to swallow.

 

[DanA]

In 2011 we were 3rd for contested possessions v opponent, but where were we in 2012,13,14,? Years where we finished in the finals and made top 4 with a strong list? Where were we in 2011,12,13,14 with clearances v opponent. That's my point, the stats show it was our style of play not just the cattle that we had available! Also look during those years at Fremantle's cp and clearance stats v opponent in the same areas...coincidently they seem to match up pretty well with where ours are so far in 2016. The stats don't lie and they point to the areas that Lloyd would've said needed changing upon his arrival, and that he has since changed. We basically set up defensively the same as Freo used to in recent years but with the attacking flair of Scott's teams when we win possession. We desperately needed our defensive systems changed and for mine it's a best of both worlds scenario now, rather than the downhill skiing mentality we too frequently had in the past 4 seasons.

You mean the three years we didn't have a ruckmen and preceded to lose Ling, Chapman, Corey, Kelly, later S.J either from the midfield we saw us dropped off in contested possessions.....count them that's five All Australians (Ottens is six) and you wonder why we dropped off in contested possessions. [emoji47]

We made the finals despite not having a ruckmen, despite not having a midfield that could win contested ball. When every sane footy analyst said it was an end of an era we hung on. That's just good coaching!!!

It could be Lloyd took all the defensive structures and now Freo have none left. As I said I think that's dubious hearsay. Or it could be Freo don't have their 211cm Ruckmen available.

Stats do lie when not put in context. And the context here IMO is the availability of ruckmen rather than the movement of "the consented ball whisperer" (Lloyd).

2011 Geelong 9th hit out & 3rd CP, Freo 7th HO & 10th CP
2012 Geelong 14th hit outs & 12th CP, Freo 3rd HO & 4th CP
2013 Geelong 16th hit outs & 9th CP, Freo 7th HO & 10th CP
2014 Geelong 10th hit outs & 13th CP, Freo 1st HO & 1st CP
2015 Geelong 18th hit outs & 13th CP , Freo 1st HO & 1st CP
2016 Geelong 5th hit outs & 5th in CP, Freo 13th HO & 13th CP

HO= hit outs CP= contested possessions

So which set of stats makes more sense. Lloyd moving or changes in midfield/ruck talent.

 

[catempire]

But DanA, Scott deliberately sabotaged our CPs and clearances, so poor is he as a coach.

 

[evolutionbaby]

In 2011 we were 3rd for contested possessions v opponent, but where were we in 2012,13,14,? Years where we finished in the finals and made top 4 with a strong list? Where were we in 2011,12,13,14 with clearances v opponent. That's my point, the stats show it was our style of play not just the cattle that we had available! Also look during those years at Fremantle's cp and clearance stats v opponent in the same areas...coincidently they seem to match up pretty well with where ours are so far in 2016. The stats don't lie and they point to the areas that Lloyd would've said needed changing upon his arrival, and that he has since changed. We basically set up defensively the same as Freo used to in recent years but with the attacking flair of Scott's teams when we win possession. We desperately needed our defensive systems changed and for mine it's a best of both worlds scenario now, rather than the downhill skiing mentality we too frequently had in the past 4 seasons.

When you mention anything that is remotely related to the word defense, I can't help think that a certain premiership full-back in M.Scarlett has possibly had some input into this particular area. I respect that Lloyd has most certainly brought something to the table as far as mental and physcological preparation/health and well being of our coaching group. But if we are talking knowledge and application of anything to do with defensive play in the practical sense, my view is that M.Scarlett has probably forgotten more than what Lloyd will ever know in this field of expertise.

 

[catempire]

Also, Scott must hate that Dangerfield is now recklessly undermining his cunning plan to get smashed in the CPs and clearances. Lucky Lloyd and the rest of the match committee are around or Scott would have Danger out on his ear.

 

[goyoucatters]

But DanA, Scott deliberately sabotaged our CPs and clearances, so poor is he as a coach.

Of course. That makes perfect sense.

The only surprising part is that the players didn't get completely frustrated by the clearly pathetic tactics of 'the figurehead' and start coaching the team again a la 2011.

 

[goyoucatters]

DanA, it's moments like your inspired pronouncement of the title 'contested ball whisperer' upon Lloyd that make this thread worth reading.

Pure gold.

 

[DanA]

Our midfield wasn't poor that's the thing, it's just Scott's system. Ringing the contests trying to create turnovers to win the ball rather than winning cp's and clearances, setting up zones with holes everywhere in them, players lacking discipline defensively, and being allowed to get away with weak defensive efforts, it's all changed.

You never thought to ask why we are "ringing" the contest trying to create turnovers. Perhaps it's because we are losing first possession?

When you look at the stats you can see what happened when S.J moved to become a full time midfield in 2013. We jumped from 12th to 9th in contested possession despite hitouts moving from 14th to 16th but SJ was getting old and couldn't sustain that season. We regressed until we recruited two ruckmen and the best contested ball winner in the league........You can say it's Lloyd. I'll say it's Dangerfield, Smith, Stanley and Bartel.

 

[evolutionbaby]

You never thought to ask why we are "ringing" the contest trying to create turnovers. Perhaps it's because we are losing first possession?

When you look at the stats you can see what happened when S.J moved to become a full time midfield in 2013. We jumped from 12th to 9th in contested possession despite hitouts moving from 14th to 16th but SJ was getting old and couldn't sustain that season. We regressed until we recruited two ruckmen and the best contested ball winner in the league........You can say it's Lloyd. I'll say it's Dangerfield, Smith, Stanley and Bartel.

Throw in Selwood not having the weight of the world on his shoulders, improvement from Guthrie and Blicavs playing exclusively in the mid-field just for good measure.

 

[DanA]

Throw in Selwood not having the weight of the world on his shoulders, improvement from Guthrie and Blicavs playing exclusively in the mid-field just for good measure.

There is so much to like about this team in comparison to last year.

The midfield depth and top end talent (Dangerfield, Duncan, Bartel, Menzel, Cockatoo as regulars)
The ruck talent (two of Stanley, Smith, Vardy as regulars)
The guys delivering inside 50 (Menzel, Kersten, Duncan, Dangerfield)
Forward pressure (Kersten, Menzel, McCarthy)
Blicavs as a tagger
Guthrie as a utility

These are all new changes and they've made the world of difference. It's a credit to Wells, the coaching staff and particular Scott.

 

[BlightysCats]

You never thought to ask why we are "ringing" the contest trying to create turnovers. Perhaps it's because we are losing first possession?

When you look at the stats you can see what happened when S.J moved to become a full time midfield in 2013. We jumped from 12th to 9th in contested possession despite hitouts moving from 14th to 16th but SJ was getting old and couldn't sustain that season. We regressed until we recruited two ruckmen and the best contested ball winner in the league........You can say it's Lloyd. I'll say it's Dangerfield, Smith, Stanley and Bartel.

Yeah we did jump from 12th to 9th but 9th is still very average, and our clearance numbers have been bad the whole time under Scott even with Ottens, it's a Scott game style thing more than personnel thing. You're staring the obvious in the face but refuse to believe it, we have changed our systems massively this season especially defensively, we're far more accountable and quite clearly value different KPI's than we ever have under Scott.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

You mean the three years we didn't have a ruckmen and preceded to lose Ling, Chapman, Corey, Kelly, later S.J either from the midfield we saw us dropped off in contested possessions.....count them that's five All Australians (Ottens is six) and you wonder why we dropped off in contested possessions. [emoji47]

We made the finals despite not having a ruckmen, despite not having a midfield that could win contested ball. When every sane footy analyst said it was an end of an era we hung on. That's just good coaching!!!

It could be Lloyd took all the defensive structures and now Freo have none left. As I said I think that's dubious hearsay. Or it could be Freo don't have their 211cm Ruckmen available.

Stats do lie when not put in context. And the context here IMO is the availability of ruckmen rather than the movement of "the consented ball whisperer" (Lloyd).

2011 Geelong 9th hit out & 3rd CP, Freo 7th HO & 10th CP
2012 Geelong 14th hit outs & 12th CP, Freo 3rd HO & 4th CP
2013 Geelong 16th hit outs & 9th CP, Freo 7th HO & 10th CP
2014 Geelong 10th hit outs & 13th CP, Freo 1st HO & 1st CP
2015 Geelong 18th hit outs & 13th CP , Freo 1st HO & 1st CP
2016 Geelong 5th hit outs & 5th in CP, Freo 13th HO & 13th CP

HO= hit outs CP= contested possessions

So which set of stats makes more sense. Lloyd moving or changes in midfield/ruck talent.

That can't be right. Blighty made it perfectly clear many times that we weren't having personnel problems....

 

[BlightysCats]

When you mention anything that is remotely related to the word defense, I can't help think that a certain premiership full-back in M.Scarlett has possibly had some input into this particular area. I respect that Lloyd has most certainly brought something to the table as far as mental and physcological preparation/health and well being of our coaching group. But if we are talking knowledge and application of anything to do with defensive play in the practical sense, my view is that M.Scarlett has probably forgotten more than what Lloyd will ever know in this field of expertise.

Ridiculous assertion! I'm sure Scarlett himself would respect the defensive tactical set ups Lloyd learned under Lyon. Scarlett is obviously doing well but line coaches, are simply line coaches, and modern defence is about team defence, whole ground defence, and that requires the kind of deep knowledge of defensive systems that Lloyd would've learned under Lyon. To say Lloyd is having no say in tactics or game-plan is preposterous and ultimately complete nonsense.

 

[BlightysCats]

But DanA, Scott deliberately sabotaged our CPs and clearances, so poor is he as a coach.

Don't be ridiculous, I'm not saying that? I'm saying he didn't value them in his system as much as other coaches did.

 

[Cataholic]

Ridiculous assertion! I'm sure Scarlett himself would respect the defensive tactical set ups Lloyd learned under Lyon. Scarlett is obviously doing well but line coaches, are simply line coaches, and modern defence is about team defence, whole ground defence, and that requires the kind of deep knowledge of defensive systems that Lloyd would've learned under Lyon. To say Lloyd is having no say in tactics or game-plan is preposterous and ultimately complete nonsense.

Scarlett might respect Lloyd, but at the end of the day he's done the practical, at the highest level, as one of the best FB's of all time. Lloyd is preaching from a textbook.

Lyon's set-up has never won a flag, and you believe Lloyd preaching it's theoretical merit has had more influence than Scarlett - who administrated one of the best defences of all time - taking our guys under his wing?? Hmm, I'm not convinced.

Your steadfast insistence that our change in fortune is largely and almost singularly due to Lloyd implies that CS is a clayton's coach. Is that your belief?

 

[Cataholic]

Don't be ridiculous, I'm not saying that? I'm saying he didn't value them in his system as much as other coaches did.

He didn't have the cattle to win those stats, so he compensated by focusing on alternative methods.

Not that he didn't value them - they just weren't achievable.

 

[evolutionbaby]

He didn't have the cattle to win those stats, so he compensated by focusing on alternative methods.

Not that he didn't value them - they just weren't achievable.

Sorry....yellow card there. Doesn't suit the narrative.

 

[evolutionbaby]

Ridiculous assertion! I'm sure Scarlett himself would respect the defensive tactical set ups Lloyd learned under Lyon. Scarlett is obviously doing well but line coaches, are simply line coaches, and modern defence is about team defence, whole ground defence, and that requires the kind of deep knowledge of defensive systems that Lloyd would've learned under Lyon. To say Lloyd is having no say in tactics or game-plan is preposterous and ultimately complete nonsense.

The high priest from the Temple of Lloyd has spoken! Let the non-believers be cast aside into the abyss of eternal damnation!

 

[BlightysCats]

He didn't have the cattle to win those stats, so he compensated by focusing on alternative methods.

Not that he didn't value them - they just weren't achievable.

Absolute nonsense! Collingwood came 3rd in the league last year for cp's v opponent are you telling me that with a bunch of kids they had a better midfield available to them than Scott in 2012, 13, 14? It was the system Scott chose not personnel.

 

[BlightysCats]

Scarlett might respect Lloyd, but at the end of the day he's done the practical, at the highest level, as one of the best FB's of all time. Lloyd is preaching from a textbook.

Lyon's set-up has never won a flag, and you believe Lloyd preaching it's theoretical merit has had more influence than Scarlett - who administrated one of the best defences of all time - taking our guys under his wing?? Hmm, I'm not convinced.

Your steadfast insistence that our change in fortune is largely and almost singularly due to Lloyd implies that CS is a clayton's coach. Is that your belief?

Lloyd is preaching from a text book, ha, ha.

Chappy certainly massively respected Ross Lyons systems what makes you think Scarlo wouldn't?
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...s/news-story/9ee6bfb5bb4d11c739614fd5aa809b3b