Analysis 2016 List Management Discussion

[BluesRule]

RoCo made an excellent point in his analysis of The.Dees win that it was a few mid tier/later draft picks in Jayden Hunt, James Harmes and Billy Stretch that made significant contributions to the win, and that collates with my post about needing to start nailing our second/third/fourth round and later picks.

Everyone has this obsession about first round picks and players, whereas our putrid lack of success rate in that area is probably the second biggest reason our club is in the stare its in now (after the SC sanctions)

That Hunt bloke especially for The Dees looks like a real goer, there is no substitute for developing your own, especially with later picks.

SOS only had one non-first round draft pick last year and he nailed it. Silvagni should be a beauty
Trust in SOS
(And hope he trades in a number of good kids and/or gets more picks in the first round again).

 

[BluesRule]

Awesome!

But where's the mids we desperately need

Don't mind getting these 3 cheaply and going to the draft for mids. We have so many holes...

 

[Blue For Life]

Thats because all our draftees in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 (barring Cripps) and all the 2014 crop barring Boekhoest, were not up to it. Yarran in 2008 is the only one you can make an argument for, and the best value we got for him was last year when we traded him. Ditto Menzel. Maybe Robinson who hasnt done too badly for a Pick 40.

All of them. Cripps is the only 'win'. In seven years of drafting and development we literally have one quality player to show for it.

I want everyone reading this to stop and think about the size of the hole in our list as a consequence. That is (by a considerable margin) the worst recruiting over a nearly a decade of any club in the AFL. It is beyond arguable. Find me another club that bad. You can go back to 2007 if you want to even the odds when we had pick 1 that year, and all we have from that draft is Kruezer and Army - two servicable players at best.

It is beyond diabolic. It is beyond a shambles.

And I sit here and here people try and argue we can get it together and start to genuinely challenge a team like GWS in their prime (or anyone else for that matter) in just 2-3 more drafts? ******* please. It would take 2-3 more drafts nailing every single pick (unheard of across the AFL) just to undo half of that mess and have us back up to close to par.

And by the time that happens, Walker, Jamison, Simpson, Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer, Thomas, will all be gone and out the door, meaning even if we somehow manage to turn around a decade of diabolic recruiting, and absolutely nail 2-3 drafts (as in 'set an AFL record for drafting' levels of nailing them), somehow finding 10 AFL quality or A grade players to fill the holes the past decade has left (we've got a single selection right in 8 years, so im not holding my breath for 10 correct selections in 2-3) we then have to find replacements for those seven players.

And thats the best case scenario here. We nail three- four drafts in a row, each better than any other club in the history of the competition (coming from a position of being the worst at it in the history of the comp) to find around 10 AFL quality players (and at least 5 A graders) just to undo the past decade of drafting blunders, and even then we would still be in a massive hole needing to replace 7 more of out best players (including 3 x number 1 picks and 2 x number 2s).

Ive watched both sides of this argument unfold for 10 years now on this site, and I've had a gutfull. We need to do it right this time. Position ourselves as best as we can in the draft maximising first round selections by trading out agressively, and increase depth by taking advantage of the unique position GWS find themselves in (like we did last year). We then need to nail those picks. Under no circumstances can we sacrifice accuracy and thoroughness for speed. Even then, we're going to need a shitload of luck and a reform of the culture of our players and (from the looks of it) many supporters.

Anyone who is foolish enough to think we're any chance at all of challenging in the next 4-5 years coming from where we've come from, and the list in the shape it's in, is (quite frankly) utterly deluded.

Here is the 2008 Draft. Start here and work your way through it. Seriously - look at it and be objective.

Last year we made the first step in a very long process. I embraced it and I'll embrace us doing similar (trading into the first round, improving our draft position, and improving our depth). Our old guard of players picked 2007 and prior are not going to be a part of any success at this footy club. The sooner people get on board with this (and I mean really get on board with it) the less pain people will have to endure, and the more on task and focussed for the journey we'll all be.

Our recruiting and player development over the years is embarrassing to say the least, gone are the days you could do the Carlton quick fix and get the CHEQUE book out and practically buy a premiership.

It has taken until Bolton and Silvagni have come to the club to put us on the right path and start to build from the ground up. This is going to be a long and strategic process which has to be done mainly via the draft, if the CFC is ever going to see success again.

The reality is players like Gibbs, Murphy and Kruezer are more than likely not going to be there when we can seriously challenge but we also can't afford to off load them and leave the side without senior experience and mature bodies.

If you trade Gibbs then who replaces him, it's true he has currency but at what expense. If we had depth in the midfield and youngsters developing coming through then you can mount a case for him to be traded.

We are not in a situation whereby we can trade out our top shelf talent unless the deal was too good to refuse.

We have started the rebuild in the right way and we must continue to draft in as much young talent as possible and this will take a long time but if done properly then the CFC will contend and remain competitive for a long time.

For now we must try to remain patient and look for the positives as it is a long road ahead.

 

[kjr8]

Our recruiting and player development over the years is embarrassing to say the least, gone are the days you could do the Carlton quick fix and get the CHEQUE book out and practically buy a premiership.

It has taken until Bolton and Silvagni have come to the club to put us on the right path and start to build from the ground up. This is going to be a long and strategic process which has to be done mainly via the draft, if the CFC is ever going to see success again.

The reality is players like Gibbs, Murphy and Kruezer are more than likely not going to be there when we can seriously challenge but we also can't afford to off load them and leave the side without senior experience and mature bodies.

If you trade Gibbs then who replaces him, it's true he has currency but at what expense. If we had depth in the midfield and youngsters developing coming through then you can mount a case for him to be traded.

We are not in a situation whereby we can trade out our top shelf talent unless the deal was too good to refuse.

We have started the rebuild in the right way and we must continue to draft in as much young talent as possible and this will take a long time but if done properly then the CFC will contend and remain competitive for a long time.

For now we must try to remain patient and look for the positives as it is a long road ahead.

We'd be the Demons of 6-8 years ago.

 

[Malifice]

Our recruiting and player development over the years is embarrassing to say the least, gone are the days you could do the Carlton quick fix and get the CHEQUE book out and practically buy a premiership.

It has taken until Bolton and Silvagni have come to the club to put us on the right path and start to build from the ground up. This is going to be a long and strategic process which has to be done mainly via the draft, if the CFC is ever going to see success again.

The reality is players like Gibbs, Murphy and Kruezer are more than likely not going to be there when we can seriously challenge but we also can't afford to off load them and leave the side without senior experience and mature bodies.

They're the only tradeable commodity we have. Were not trading young guns (Cripps, Docherty, Weitering). Its no use trading second rate players as they have no value.

And no-one is arguing 'gut the list of senior experience'. We had 9 players take the field yesterday with 100 or more games experience. We can afford to lose a few of them, if it improves our position in the draft, and brings in more talented youth.

Since 2008 (not including last year as its too early to tell), our first round selections have been: Yarran, Lucas, Bootsma, Watson, Menzel (all gone), Boekoest (might make it) and Cripps (gun). Dont get me started on later picks (all of them have been busts). Accordingly there is a massive (MASSIVE) talent hole in the list in all areas of the ground, and a total lack of depth.

We need to fix that by getting in as much young talent as we can. Then once a decade of poor recruiting has been fixed, we'll be on par. Not ahead mind you; just on par.

Once we're on par in 3-4 years, we can start to try and get the ledger in the black (with an excess of talent) instead of miles in the red (where we are at present).

If you think we can fix that hole created by 10 years of poor drafting for a close to zero return (out of an expected return of around 10-20 AFL quality players from 10 years of recruiting, including around 4-5 A grade guns; we have one of each) by only using a single pick in each round of 3-4 drafts, you're kidding yourself. Im sorry, but thats the reality. Even if we absolutely nail all our picks over the next 3-4 drafts (highly unlikely and never been done before in the history of the AFL, but we have to try) we would only then just be catching up and filling the talent hole of the past decade.

By which time Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer, Simpson, Rowe, Casboult, Walker, Jamison and Touhy will all be either out the door or on their way out placing us back in the red, and forcing another 3-4 years to get in replacements for them.

The only solution is to stagger (over the next few drafts) an early release of exprienced players for trades to increase our number of 1st round selections in the draft, to give us more selections in the talented end of the draft.

Dont go all at once, but we need to release a few each year for more top end picks and to improve our position in the draft. If we dont, were doomed to another 10 years of failure.

We are not in a situation whereby we can trade out our top shelf talent unless the deal was too good to refuse.

I completely disagree. We have to trade out older top shelf talent in order to bring in more talented youth. What use is top shelf talent aged 26 and over in a list that wont be playing in September for 3-4 years while we try and fix a decade of diabolical recruiting?

And how do we fix a decade of diabolical recruiting without getting in more draft picks?

 

[1981]

Went to just my second game (live) for 2016, on the weekend.

I have always been of the view you see more live, not just how the game unfolds, but also the players. The good players stand out, as do the not so good ones.

Watching the game live, I came to the conclusion that the likes of Graham and Buckley may struggle to ‘make it’, and as a result a guy like Tuohy, who was good yesterday and stood out with his goals, is, when you weigh up the lack of depth on the list, arguably not tradeable. I just don’t think we can afford to lose him.

Casboult’s kicking as we all know is unacceptable, but I think he doesn’t cop enough criticism for his poor execution by hand also – his handballs are often way off the mark.

 

[1981]

They're the only tradeable commodity we have. Were not trading young guns (Cripps, Docherty, Weitering). Its no use trading second rate players as they have no value.

And no-one is arguing 'gut the list of senior experience'. We had 9 players take the field yesterday with 100 or more games experience. We can afford to lose a few of them, if it improves our position in the draft, and brings in more talented youth.

Since 2008 (not including last year as its too early to tell), our first round selections have been: Yarran, Lucas, Bootsma, Watson, Menzel (all gone), Boekoest (might make it) and Cripps (gun). Dont get me started on later picks (all of them have been busts). Accordingly there is a massive (MASSIVE) talent hole in the list in all areas of the ground, and a total lack of depth.

We need to fix that by getting in as much young talent as we can. Then once a decade of poor recruiting has been fixed, we'll be on par. Not ahead mind you; just on par.

Once we're on par in 3-4 years, we can start to try and get the ledger in the black (with an excess of talent) instead of miles in the red (where we are at present).

If you think we can fix that hole created by 10 years of poor drafting for a close to zero return (out of a return of around 10-20 AFL quality players from 10 years of recruiting, including at least 4-5 A grade guns, we have one of each) by only using a single pick in each round of 3-4 drafts, you're kidding yourself. Im sorry, but thats the reality. Even if we nail all our picks over the next 3-4 drafts (highly unlikely and never been done before in the history of the AFL, but we have to try) we would only then just be catching up.

By which time Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer, Simpson, Rowe, Casboult, Walker, Jamison and Touhy will all be either out the door or on their way out placing us back in the red, and forcing another 3-4 years to get in replacements for them.

The only solution is to stagger (over the next few drafts) an early release of those players for trades to increase our number of 1st round selections in the draft, to give us more selections in the talented end of the draft.



I completely disagree. We have to trade out older top shelf talent in order to bring in more talented youth. What use is top shelf talent aged 26 and over in a list that wont be playing in September for 3-4 years while we try and fix a decade of diabolical recruiting?

And how do we fix a decade of diabolical recruiting without getting in more draft picks?

We won't be trading out our better players, just won't happen.
Can't afford to lose the likes of Gibbs and Tuohy right now, as there simply isn't enough depth to cover their losses. We will get smashed and lose confidence and the house of cards will collapse.
Better to add to the list of good players we have.
Good thing is, players play longer into their careers these days, so it is fine to have a smattering of older players.
The call to trade out stars to get picks is naive.

 

[Malifice]

The call to trade out stars to get picks is naive.

Trent Croad, Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell and 4 Hawks flags disagree with you.

 

[Matty411]

I have to disagree on Marchbank. He's played, what, 7 games?

Only 3 months older than David Cuningham, I would expect him only to play 10 games or so next year.

Perhaps I'm a bit optimistic on Marchbank immediately being Best 22 but could see him playing Round 1 for sure. Round 1 back six of:

Bucks-Marchbank-Plowman
Tuohy-Weitering-Doc

Rowe may well still be the preferred #1 Fullback based on form but by end of 2017 I'd expect MB to have usurped him. Byrne to replace Bucks in the back six when he returns. Pretty solid looking back 6 if you ask me.

 

[Dramoth]

Melbourne have a scarily good young midfield, about the best young fwd in the game and I have no idea what they have in defence (not even Melbourne supporters watch Melbourne games). And I would much rather be in their shoes than ours, list wise. By a long way.

I'm just saying that IF they make the finals next year, it will be 9 seasons since they finished bottom in 2008.

And if you reset the clock when they went full rebuild, it will still be 7 seasons....

Now, I don't want to try any of this Richmond 'let's take the easy way out and top out playing finals' crap, but I also think taking 10 or so years for a rebuild of rebuild is not the greatest outcome.

Aggressive list re-generation is one thing. Scorched earth is another.

On a scale of

0 - Carlton just auto-renewing the entire playing list every year during 2000-2012

to

10 - Melbourne going full-rebuild

I think the best balance might be 7/8.....

Just my opinion.

Thats what I am trying to get across... you can be aggressive with your list management... but only if it is required. At the moment, we don't have the depth of talent required.

I think 2-3 retirements, 2-4 trades, and 3-6 delistments this year would be about it. Unless we know for certain that we are getting in a set number of players via trade, we should be seeking the middle ground.

 

[Azul]

It's a pretty simple question to every player on our list.

"Do you want to continue playing in this rabble of a side buying into Bolton's timeframe of success sometime around 2021, or would you like to seek premiership glory somewhere else?"

I wouldn't push a player like Gibbs out the door but he's free to raise a family playing for (Port) Adelaide.

 

[Azul]

Perhaps I'm a bit optimistic on Marchbank immediately being Best 22 but could see him playing Round 1 for sure. Round 1 back six of:

Bucks-Marchbank-Plowman
Tuohy-Weitering-Doc

Rowe may well still be the preferred #1 Fullback based on form but by end of 2017 I'd expect MB to have usurped him. Byrne to replace Bucks in the back six when he returns. Pretty solid looking back 6 if you ask me.

Fair enough, I just don't want broken hearts if he doesn't deliver in the first 6 months. Not everyone will jump out of the blocks like a Murphy or a Whitnall - and sure he'll be on his 3rd year but would still be Rising Star eligible.

 

[1981]

Trent Croad, Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell and 4 Hawks flags disagree with you.

You can’t just pull out one example.

I can do that too you know. Melbourne got rid of nearly all their experience players and suffered for years as a result. Set them back years.

And in any event I would argue Hawthorn’s success has primarily been about culture and game plan as opposed to individual brilliance. All teams have some topliners. But not all have great system and culture.

The proof will be in the pudding. Do you really think Carlton will get rid of their better, older players like Gibbs etc?

 

[1981]

Trent Croad, Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell and 4 Hawks flags disagree with you.

Hodge was a priority pick, you only get those from finishing low and getting very few wins. Had nothing to do with trading ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_AFL_draft

Haven't been bothered to look up the other two.

 

[Soapy V]

if a club is going to be badly effected by trading a particular player then you have a very ordinary club

 

[Matty411]

Fair enough, I just don't want broken hearts if he doesn't deliver in the first 6 months. Not everyone will jump out of the blocks like a Murphy or a Whitnall - and sure he'll be on his 3rd year but would still be Rising Star eligible.

Is highly rated and - injury aside - has an AFL-ready body. However I too am wary of him being a young KPD... but it has happened before (think Talia and even Weitering now).

 

[Sector 7G]

Hodge was a priority pick, you only get those from finishing low and getting very few wins. Had nothing to do with trading ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_AFL_draft

Haven't been bothered to look up the other two.

You must not have read what you looked up.

Luke McPharlin & Trent Croad Hawthorn traded for Fremantle draft picks #1, #20 & #36

Hawthorn then used the picks on:
Priority 1 Luke Hodge Geelong Falcons Hawthorn
2 20 Daniel Elstone Bendigo Pioneers Hawthorn
3 36 Sam Mitchell Box Hill Hawks Hawthorn

 

[1981]

Talk of trading our best players is hysterical.

Better to add to what we have.

We actually have a decent core. Nice spread of old and young. Here is my team for the future. These are all players I am happy to have in my side. I don’t include Simpson as he is now well into his 30s, but I include Murphy because he could very well play another 3 years, maybe even more. In 3 years Murphy will be approaching Simmo’s age now, that sort of puts things in perspective. And as I said earlier, the trend nowadays is for good players, fitness pending, to keep playing well into their 30s. This is due to diets and preparation and training and medicos etc being better these days. That’s my theory anyhow. In any event, all contenders have a number of older players. So it just makes sense.


B Tuohy, JGM (I rate him), Plowman
HB Byrne, Weitering, Docherty
C Curnow.E, Gibbs, XXXXX
RUCKS Phillips/Kreuzer, Cripps, Murphy
HF Silvagni, Curnow.C, XXXXX
F Sumner, McKay, Wright

Others maybe: Boekhorst, Cuningham, Jaksch, Graham, Pick 4 2016, Pick 22 2016, Pick 40 2016, Approx Pick 8 2017, Approx Pick 26 2017, Approx Pick 10 2018, Approx Pick 28 2018, Ben Silvagni.

 

[Dramoth]

Awesome!

But where's the mids we desperately need

I would be seeing if we can prise Barrett and A. Kennedy out of GWS... they are going to be starved of opportunity and would have very handy acquisitions for us.

 

[Malifice]

Hodge was a priority pick, you only get those from finishing low and getting very few wins. Had nothing to do with trading ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_AFL_draft

Haven't been bothered to look up the other two.

No he was not.

In 2001 the Hawks traded out Luke McPharlin and Trent Croad (virtually against his will) to Fremantle in exchange for picks 1 and 36 (they then used those picks on Hodge and Mitchell)

After a disastrous 2001 season during which Fremantle sacked coach Damian Drum mid-year and only won 2 games, Fremantle then became the first club to trade away the first selection in the national draft, which it received in addition to selection 4 as a priority draft pick due to their poor performance. In what would end up being considered one of the strongest drafts ever,[10] Fremantle traded its first three draft selections for Hawthorn's key forward Trent Croad, along with injury prone former East Fremantle junior Luke McPharlin. Two of those selections were used by Hawthorn to draft four time premiership players and club captains Luke Hodge(#1 selection) and Sam Mitchell (#36).

Sam Mitchell:

• 4x AFL premiership player: (2008, 2013, 2014,2015)
• 4× Peter Crimmins Medal: (2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)
• 3× All-Australian Team: (2011, 2013, 2015)
• 2x Lou Richards Medal: (2011, 2015)
• J.J. Liston Trophy: (2002)
• AFL Rising Star: (2003)

Luke Hodge:

• 4× AFL Premiership: (2008, 2013, 2014, 2015)
• 2× Norm Smith Medal: (2008, 2014)
• 3× All-Australian: (2005, 2008, 2010)
• 2× Peter Crimmins Medal: (2005, 2010)
• International Rules Series: (2005, 2014, 2015)
• AFLPA Best Captain Award: (2014)
• Jim Stynes Medal: (2014)
• Captain of Hawthorn FC: 2011-
• Hawthorn FC Best First Year Player Award: (2002)
• AFL Rising Star Award: (Nomination 2002)
• TAC Cup Premiership (2000)
• AFL/AIS Academy (2001)
• U/18 International Rules Representative (2001)
• Ron Barassi Medal as MVP in U18 IR Series(2001)

Hodge has won 2 Norm Smiths.

Forget the 2004 draft of Buddy and Roughy, it was this trade and this draft that made Hawthorn into what they are today, and got them across the line for those 4 flags. Buddy, Roughy and Rioli were just icing on that cake.

Ironically, Croad would return to the Hawks a few years later in any event and play in that 2008 Flag.

You can’t just pull out one example.

I can do that too you know. Melbourne got rid of nearly all their experience players and suffered for years as a result. Set them back years.

Im not saying we trade out all of them. A few each year will do me just fine. A staggered release.

And in any event I would argue Hawthorn’s success has primarily been about culture and game plan as opposed to individual brilliance.

See above.

The proof will be in the pudding. Do you really think Carlton will get rid of their better, older players like Gibbs etc?

Absolutely. Last year we moved on Henderson, Yarran and Menzel for extra 1st round selections and everyone was ecstatic with the draft haul we got in exchange.

We should aim to do the same this year (releasing 1-3 experienced players) for more 1st rounders and to improve our position in the draft. And again the next year. And again the following year.

And then we need to nail those draft selections.

 

[Soapy V]

at the weekend at the ground and on radio people were talking about how a "young" side can have bad days and we are in a rebuild. this is what worries me most. "young"? we are not young. last year we drafted four young players. thats it. on the weekend we had 2 first year players. we need to go to the draft and hard. our good performances are still because of gibbs simpson armfield curnow tuohy etc. look at our list. how much genuine young talent do we have coming through? watch the reserves, it isnt pretty. it needs to change and drastically.

 

[1981]

You must not have read what you looked up.

Luke McPharlin & Trent Croad Hawthorn traded for Fremantle draft picks #1, #20 & #36

Hawthorn then used the picks on:
Priority 1 Luke Hodge Geelong Falcons Hawthorn
2 20 Daniel Elstone Bendigo Pioneers Hawthorn
3 36 Sam Mitchell Box Hill Hawks Hawthorn

That’s fine, it changes nothing.

To say that the Hawks dynasty is built of trading players is to dismiss the game plan and systems and culture, which I am sure most would agree is the main reason for their success. All teams have topliners.

And, in any event what older player would we part with now to get the no.1 pick? It wouldn’t happen.

As I said, I have feeling we won’t trade away our better players. Proof will be in the pudding.

 

[Malifice]

at the weekend at the ground and on radio people were talking about how a "young" side can have bad days and we are in a rebuild. this is what worries me most. "young"? we are not young. last year we drafted four young players. thats it. on the weekend we had 2 first year players. we need to go to the draft and hard. our good performances are still because of gibbs simpson armfield curnow tuohy etc. look at our list. how much genuine young talent do we have coming through? watch the reserves, it isnt pretty. it needs to change and drastically.

Were not young, we're just (collectively) a middling side at best. 10 years of recruiting for a net return of 1 player will do that. It leaves holes all over the ground.

 

[1981]

No he was not.

In 2001 the Hawks traded out Luke McPharlin and Trent Croad (virtually against his will) to Fremantle in exchange for picks 1 and 36 (they then used those picks on Hodge and Mitchell)



Sam Mitchell:

• 4x AFL premiership player: (2008, 2013, 2014,2015)
• 4× Peter Crimmins Medal: (2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)
• 3× All-Australian Team: (2011, 2013, 2015)
• 2x Lou Richards Medal: (2011, 2015)
• J.J. Liston Trophy: (2002)
• AFL Rising Star: (2003)

Luke Hodge:

• 4× AFL Premiership: (2008, 2013, 2014, 2015)
• 2× Norm Smith Medal: (2008, 2014)
• 3× All-Australian: (2005, 2008, 2010)
• 2× Peter Crimmins Medal: (2005, 2010)
• International Rules Series: (2005, 2014, 2015)
• AFLPA Best Captain Award: (2014)
• Jim Stynes Medal: (2014)
• Captain of Hawthorn FC: 2011-
• Hawthorn FC Best First Year Player Award: (2002)
• AFL Rising Star Award: (Nomination 2002)
• TAC Cup Premiership (2000)
• AFL/AIS Academy (2001)
• U/18 International Rules Representative (2001)
• Ron Barassi Medal as MVP in U18 IR Series(2001)

Hodge has won 2 Norm Smiths.

Forget the 2004 draft of Buddy and Roughy, it was this trade and this draft that made Hawthorn into what they are today, and got them across the line for those 4 flags. Buddy, Roughy and Rioli were just icing on that cake.

Ironically, Croad would return to the Hawks a few years later in any event and play in that 2008 Flag.



Im not saying we trade out all of them. A few each year will do me just fine. A staggered release.



See above.



Absolutely. Last year we moved on Henderson, Yarran and Menzel for extra 1st round selections and everyone was ecstatic with the draft haul we got in exchange.

We should aim to do the same this year (releasing 1-3 experienced players) for more 1st rounders and to improve our position in the draft. And again the next year. And again the following year.

And then we need to nail those draft selections.

The difference is the likes of Henderson etc were talented players who we could afford to let go, because while talented they weren’t leaders, and weren’t topliners. They had currency externally but not internally, and hence this presented Carlton with an ideal opportunity to trade.

I was all for getting rid of those types. It was smart. Get rid our mid agers who have hit their ceiling and can’t lead and won’t ever lead and won’t ever be topliners. And get rid of a kid with injury/fitness issues.

You cannot compare Henderson and Menzel types of Gibbs and Murphy types.

Get rid of Murphy and Gibbs types now, and Cripps will get smashed and will leave in 2 years. We have Murphy, Gibbs and Cripps, 3 very good midfielders. Better to add to that in the next 2-3 years and have 6 good mids not 3.

 

[Blue For Life]

I'm

They're the only tradeable commodity we have. Were not trading young guns (Cripps, Docherty, Weitering). Its no use trading second rate players as they have no value.

And no-one is arguing 'gut the list of senior experience'. We had 9 players take the field yesterday with 100 or more games experience. We can afford to lose a few of them, if it improves our position in the draft, and brings in more talented youth.

Since 2008 (not including last year as its too early to tell), our first round selections have been: Yarran, Lucas, Bootsma, Watson, Menzel (all gone), Boekoest (might make it) and Cripps (gun). Dont get me started on later picks (all of them have been busts). Accordingly there is a massive (MASSIVE) talent hole in the list in all areas of the ground, and a total lack of depth.

We need to fix that by getting in as much young talent as we can. Then once a decade of poor recruiting has been fixed, we'll be on par. Not ahead mind you; just on par.

Once we're on par in 3-4 years, we can start to try and get the ledger in the black (with an excess of talent) instead of miles in the red (where we are at present).

If you think we can fix that hole created by 10 years of poor drafting for a close to zero return (out of an expected return of around 10-20 AFL quality players from 10 years of recruiting, including around 4-5 A grade guns; we have one of each) by only using a single pick in each round of 3-4 drafts, you're kidding yourself. Im sorry, but thats the reality. Even if we absolutely nail all our picks over the next 3-4 drafts (highly unlikely and never been done before in the history of the AFL, but we have to try) we would only then just be catching up and filling the talent hole of the past decade.

By which time Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer, Simpson, Rowe, Casboult, Walker, Jamison and Touhy will all be either out the door or on their way out placing us back in the red, and forcing another 3-4 years to get in replacements for them.

The only solution is to stagger (over the next few drafts) an early release of exprienced players for trades to increase our number of 1st round selections in the draft, to give us more selections in the talented end of the draft.

Dont go all at once, but we need to release a few each year for more top end picks and to improve our position in the draft. If we dont, were doomed to another 10 years of failure.



I completely disagree. We have to trade out older top shelf talent in order to bring in more talented youth. What use is top shelf talent aged 26 and over in a list that wont be playing in September for 3-4 years while we try and fix a decade of diabolical recruiting?

And how do we fix a decade of diabolical recruiting without getting in more draft picks?

I'm not saying to rely on just 1 first round pick over the next few drafts or that Gibbs and co are not to be traded.
What I'm saying is that if we were to trade out guys like Gibbs we need to get something substantial in return to compensate so that we don't hang out our kids when they aren't ready.
My point is for Silvagni and co be creative and earn their keep by not only getting out early picks right but try and pick the eyes out of the draft and get some return from our second, third and later rounds.