Will soccer ever be a serious threat to footy, long-term?

[XXRL]

Another quirk about soccer is how a 5th tier club (in the FA cup) can be competitive against a top Premier League club.

It's the equivalent of the Bateman's Bay reserves defeating an AFL club.

Could that ever happen in our game - obviously not - the Bateman's Bay reserves would not get anywhere near the footy.

Once again, make of that what you will.

I make very little of it tbh:

1. The fourth tier of English football - League 2 - is fully professional with players making 40-odd thousand pounds a year - how much do the Bateman's Bay ressies earn? It makes no sense to compare the two;
2. How many 5th tier clubs have ever won the FA Cup? Zero. Since 1901 there have been a few second tier teams to win the cup, most recently in 1980 when West Ham beat Arsenal from the second tier.

 

[BustedWing]

I make very little of it tbh:

1. The fourth tier of English football - League 2 - is fully professional with players making 40-odd thousand pounds a year - how much do the Bateman's Bay ressies earn? It makes no sense to compare the two;
2. How many 5th tier clubs have ever won the FA Cup? Zero. Since 1901 there have been a few second tier teams to win the cup, most recently in 1980 when West Ham beat Arsenal from the second tier.

The nature of the two games are also totally different. One is a free flowing high scoring game, the other is a physical and strategic arm wrestle. An inferior team in Soccer can keep players behind the ball and hope to scrap out a draw, or even score a lucky one on the counter. Footy...just wont happen. The best the Batemans Bay Ressies could do would be to put all players in the defensive half, and only lose by 200 instead of 400.

 

[XXRL]

They couldn't be selected from the NSL in 2006 because it had been scrapped by then!

Most didn't just play in the NSL as kids, they played a few seasons of senior football before going overseas.

So I'm not sure how you can fail to credit the NSL, and in any event, my point was more about the ethnic composition and the importance families used to place on playing the game, and playing often.

These days, the high soccer participation rate is more about a bit of child minding than anything else. Parents who have zero interest in the game, drop their kids off for an hour while they go shopping.

Mark Viduka left the NSL when he was 20, Vince Grella left the NSL to go to Italy when he was 19 as did Bresciano.

Scrapping the NSL for the A-League was the right thing to do. It caused a lot of pain, and no doubt they made some mistakes and burnt some good-hearted and passionate people, but it had to happen for the game to go upwards, and that's what is happening.

The problem for the AFL is they've reached their peak pretty much. A game loved in three or four states of one medium-sized country.

 

[NoobPie]

Nat Fyfe grew up playing for Lake Grace. That doesn't mean that the Ongerup Football Association is the best pathway to the AFL. Ridiculous comment.

The A-League has brought much needed professionalism to Australian Football that was lacking in the NSL days and it is producing a large number of very good players. Mile Jedinak went from the Central Coast Mariners to captain of an EPL club, who led his team out for an FA Cup Final FFS.

From wiki, Nat Fyfe grew up in a football heartland, went to a top sports school, played colts for Claremont and wa under 18s and then was part of the annual cohort of 100odd provided an opportunity at an afl club with a non playing payment football department spend bigger than the entire turnover of all but 1 off the 9 professional soccer clubs. Pathways.

Mile jedinak, fair enough. I'm not asserting that the NSl was necessarily better than the a league at producing players, just pointing out that the a leagues output has been pretty light on

 

[XXRL]

From wiki, Nat Fyfe grew up in a football heartland, went to a top sports school, played colts for Claremont and wa under 18s and then was part of the annual cohort of 100odd provided an opportunity at an afl club with a non playing payment football department spend bigger than the entire turnover of all but 1 off the 9 professional soccer clubs. Pathways.

Mile jedinak, fair enough. I'm not asserting that the NSl was necessarily better than the a league at producing players, just pointing out that the a leagues output has been pretty light on

There are others too: Mooy, Rogic, Kruse, Amini. In the old days you had to leave for Europe by 20 or 21. Nowadays players can play at a higher level in Australia. This is a double-edged sword of course - some players might be better off leaving the relative safety of the A-League for the bigger, more competitive 'ponds' earlier.

 

[NoobPie]

Mark Viduka left the NSL when he was 20, Vince Grella left the NSL to go to Italy when he was 19 as did Bresciano.

Scrapping the NSL for the A-League was the right thing to do. It caused a lot of pain, and no doubt they made some mistakes and burnt some good-hearted and passionate people, but it had to happen for the game to go upwards, and that's what is happening.

The problem for the AFL is they've reached their peak pretty much. A game loved in three or four states of one medium-sized country.

Viduka played in a premiership and won 2 highest scorer iirc

In regards to your last sentence, you were doing alright for a bit there avoiding the cliched soccer mono-maniacs put downs of Australian football

Soccer people who have been consoling themselves on that and soccers inevitable rise to sepremacy in Australia for several decades

In terms of benchmarking, in countries where both Australian football and soccer are played, in what percentage is soccer the most popular?

 

[XXRL]

Viduka played in a premiership and won 2 highest scorer iirc

In regards to your last sentence, you were doing alright for a bit there avoiding the cliched soccer mono-maniacs put downs of Australian football

Soccer people who have been consoling themselves on that and soccers inevitable rise to sepremacy in Australia for several decades

In terms of benchmarking, in countries where both Australian football and soccer are played, in what percentage is soccer the most popular?

I'm comfortable as a fan, member, and supporter of both.

I can't stand, (nor understand) the negative view of soccer in this country and it starts to wear very thin after a while. The biggest shame is it comes from soccer fans and non-soccer fans alike.

When it was the NSL, soccer was "too ethnic" and people were saying "why are you bringing your European rivalries here?". Now it's the A-League and the criticisms are that the club's have lost their community link and haven't produced a socceroos squad like the 05-06 squad. We are champions of Asia FFS!

 

[madmug]

The only criticism I have is the sort of crap Postecoglou comes up with. Jealousy.
The soccer media arent much better. Even watching games they continually pump the game up. If they showed some honesty & called player mistakes & poor play, then I'd take them seriously. They laud the players skills but ignore the regular stuff ups & mistakes. Some honesty rather than just cheer squading would give them some credibility at least.

 

[XXRL]

The only criticism I have is the sort of crap Postecoglou comes up with. Jealousy.

It goes both ways though. What about the Herald Sun campaigning for Australia NOT to host the biggest sporting event in the world? Of course there's going to be some push back.

 

[DangerIsLove]

Soccer will never take over. The A League is a mismanaged competition with a corrupt, inept group of individuals running it. There is a poor expansion plan and there caps hindering teams from attracting big players.

If soccer was to ever compete it would need to expand to: one Tasmanian team, another Sydney team, South Melbourne FC , A Canberra team and another Brisbane team.

It would be a start if South Melbourne were accepted into the A League but those idiots in charge won't accept them

 

[madmug]

It goes both ways though. What about the Herald Sun campaigning for Australia NOT to host the biggest sporting event in the world? Of course there's going to be some push back.

Nothing the Hun does would surprise me
However the WC would have been sorted out if Australia had won the bid. It was a corrupt process anyway. I do listen to sbs commentators though, they cheer squad too much & lose credibility.

 

[jatz14]

I cannot imagine that this would be the case at a junior footy match too, or a junior cricket match.

The only junior footy I see is at half time at Freo games, but it seems to me that half a dozen on any one team are decent and the rest are making up the numbers. That's what junior sport is about!

It is the same for all sports, and if the kids want to look at the bugs, then let them. My point is, the more a kid is disinterested, or untalented at Sports, the more parents who want them to experience sport look for 'safe' options. Soccer for better or worse is seen as a safe Winter sport.

It gets more of these kids than other sports, then looses them as they age.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[Garlic muncher]

It goes both ways though. What about the Herald Sun campaigning for Australia NOT to host the biggest sporting event in the world? Of course there's going to be some push back.

Any reason they shouldn't campaign on behalf of the bulk of the people who buy their paper ?.

And next time soccer try and commandeer the MCG and Etihad they can get stuffed again.

Sounds exactly like this numpty who tried to halt a WAFL season for a rugby match.

https://cegan.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/harry-brown-the-crusader-of-british-sports-in-perth/

 

[NoobPie]

I'm comfortable as a fan, member, and supporter of both.

I can't stand, (nor understand) the negative view of soccer in this country and it starts to wear very thin after a while. The biggest shame is it comes from soccer fans and non-soccer fans alike.

When it was the NSL, soccer was "too ethnic" and people were saying "why are you bringing your European rivalries here?". Now it's the A-League and the criticisms are that the club's have lost their community link and haven't produced a socceroos squad like the 05-06 squad. We are champions of Asia FFS!

It's funny how you're crying foul but this is your entry post into this thread on an Aussie rules Internet forum...

Lol.

So the main strength of AFL is that good players can be big fish in a small pond?

Reminds me of this quote from Ange Postecoglou's book:

"Aussie Rules has no international benchmark at all, so good knows how good we actually are or could be at that sport. Aussie Rules exists in an almost fully inflated bubble of entitlement, hubris and self-absorption, so football shouldn't compare itself to that sport. Let's face it, if Germany or Brazil, or god help us the USA, actually had a hundred serious years of Australian Rules Football history and desire and investment, Australia might not reign supreme even in a game of its own invention."

Cracking read for any football fan btw

So you and Ange can preach about "hubris, entitlement and self absorption" then cry foul when the afl doesn't meekly vacate the ground it built for a season or that the country isn't in awe of winning the Asian cup but don't expect to be taken seriously!

 

[Gigantor]

It's all part of the soccer entitlement mentality.

Get off your lardarses and earn it.

 

[NoobPie]

Any reason they shouldn't campaign on behalf of the bulk of the people who buy their paper ?.

Are you serious? Because it's the World Cup. The greatest thing that there ever was....

...that's played in the northern summer as to not interrupt the seasons of the major European club leagues...

...that's worth billions of dollars...to FIFA at least, every credible economic analysis demonstrates it is rarely worthwhile for the host...

...how dare an insignificant little game no one cares about protect its contractural rights?

...but seriously, what a disaster that bid was for soccer in Australia

 

[Demonoid]

Another quirk about soccer is how a 5th tier club (in the FA cup) can be competitive against a top Premier League club.

It's the equivalent of the Bateman's Bay reserves defeating an AFL club.

Could that ever happen in our game - obviously not - the Bateman's Bay reserves would not get anywhere near the footy.

Once again, make of that what you will.

I think that is mostly due to the fact that soccer is an exceptionally low scoring sport, where the underdog could score a lucky goal or get a penalty decision and win the game. Contrast that with high drawing sports like the AFL, basketball etc where the best team on the day almost always wins.

 

[EDFL follower]

I make very little of it tbh:

1. The fourth tier of English football - League 2 - is fully professional with players making 40-odd thousand pounds a year - how much do the Bateman's Bay ressies earn? It makes no sense to compare the two;
2. How many 5th tier clubs have ever won the FA Cup? Zero. Since 1901 there have been a few second tier teams to win the cup, most recently in 1980 when West Ham beat Arsenal from the second tier.

Didn't Wimbledon beat Liverpool in the fa cup final from a lower divusion about 25 or 30 years ago??

 

[tandino]

Didn't Wimbledon beat Liverpool in the fa cup final from a lower divusion about 25 or 30 years ago??

No, while they weren't long in the top flight, Wimbledon was still a mid-table team in the first division when that pulled off that upset in 1988

 

[Gigantor]

A fifth tier team drew with Manchester United a few years back in an early round FA cup round.

It's the equivalent of the Bateman's Bay reserves getting close to an AFL senior team.

Clearly, they wouldn't get close.

You can replay that game a million times and they wouldn't get close.

Let's be honest, we don't even bother creating cup comps where the AFL teams are playing second tier clubs - and we all know why we don't bother doing that.

But a lower tier club will occasionally get a result against a top Premier League club in the FA Cup - that's the so-called romance of the FA cup, lower tier clubs can be competitive against top clubs.

Happens in the FFA cup as well.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Are you serious? Because it's the World Cup. The greatest thing that there ever was....

...that's played in the northern summer as to not interrupt the seasons of the major European club leagues...

...that's worth billions of dollars...to FIFA at least, every credible economic analysis demonstrates it is rarely worthwhile for the host...

...how dare an insignificant little game no one cares about protect its contractural rights?

...but seriously, what a disaster that bid was for soccer in Australia

As much as I would have loved the World Cup in Australia, I can still not believe the Soccer community just expecting the AFL to shut down for 8 weeks in the middle of the season so that they could run a competition and then get angry at the AFL because they do their job and look after their sport. It was laughable especially because they expect other sports (AFL,NRL ect) to give up their season just so it doesn't disrupt their sports (soccer) season in Europe. It was laughable and pathetic.

 

[NoobPie]

As much as I would have loved the World Cup in Australia, I can still not believe the Soccer community just expecting the AFL to shut down for 8 weeks in the middle of the season so that they could run a competition and then get angry at the AFL because they do their job and look after their sport. It was laughable especially because they expect other sports (AFL,NRL ect) to give up their season just so it doesn't disrupt their sports (soccer) season in Europe. It was laughable and pathetic.

I remember at the time I broke a soccer fanboys jaw...don't worry, I didn't snot him

He was in a tither about the evil AFL trying to derail the world cup bid. The AFL, you see, were insisting on playing through the world cup when FIFA demand that no professional sports are to be played at the same time and they were also holding out for compensation for losing the MCG and not giving up etihad....

...anyway, at some point the soccer fanboy paused to wipe his brow and draw breath...I put it to him that the FFA should instead set out a bid that involved the european soccer seasons recessing for 2 months over february and march....

...unfortunately the poor sod was standing on hard concrete at the time, his jaw was a blur as it thudded into the concrete and a complete mess afterwards

..."entitled, hubris and self absorption" indeed

 

[tandino]

A fifth tier team drew with Manchester United a few years back in an early round FA cup round.

It's the equivalent of the Bateman's Bay reserves getting close to an AFL senior team.

Clearly, they wouldn't get close.

You can replay that game a million times and they wouldn't get close.

Let's be honest, we don't even bother creating cup comps where the AFL teams are playing second tier clubs - and we all know why we don't bother doing that.

But a lower tier club will occasionally get a result against a top Premier League club in the FA Cup - that's the so-called romance of the FA cup, lower tier clubs can be competitive against top clubs.

Happens in the FFA cup as well.

And? What's the take home message of all this?

 

[madmug]

Are you serious? Because it's the World Cup. The greatest thing that there ever was....

...that's played in the northern summer as to not interrupt the seasons of the major European club leagues...

...that's worth billions of dollars...to FIFA at least, every credible economic analysis demonstrates it is rarely worthwhile for the host...

...how dare an insignificant little game no one cares about protect its contractural rights?

...but seriously, what a disaster that bid was for soccer in Australia

The WC is a huge ego trip. Apart from that, & the corrupt selection process, it costs host nations a bloody fortune they c asn never hope to recoup. Its a fraud. Run by criminals. 1/2 the 'tourists' who travel to watch it are antisocial thugs looking for trouble. We're lucky we only wasted $45mill on the fraudulent application. We're safer & financially better off without it.

 

[Gigantor]

And? What's the take home message of all this?

Getting back to Ange's original statement about benchmarking.

On the one hand, he's correct that the AFL cannot be benchmarked against any other professional league, because it is the only professional aussie rules league in the world.

We do know with absolute certainity, unequivocally, that the Bateman's Bay reserves cannot get anywhere near a senior AFL team.

We do know that lower tier soccer teams can be competitive against top tier soccer teams, and sometimes even beat them. There are countless examples of this happening.

We do know that the Wanderers was able to put together a premeirship winning team in its very first season, with only four months to get their act together, something that has never been replicated in the AFL, in fact, no one has even come remotely close to that achievement. It would appear, at least in the Australian example, that soccer players who are good enough to win a premiership can be picked up almost anywhere. In the Wanderers example, we are talking about establishing a successful team from scratch in an extremely short period of time.

Does this give us another perspective on the benchmarking question?