Gym & Misc Irritating people/things that annoy you in the gym II

[Aeglos]

Definitely agree on your first point and not going to argue WHR being superior if you can do it. The problem is you have to think about practicality too when it comes to conducting big population level studies. I'd love it if we can easily collect more measures from the population but people don't always co-operate. That's when you have to use stuff like the BMI.

Why do we have to use BMI though?
Sure, if someone lives by themselves with no access to a mirror, tape measure or medical services they might need to use BMI. But really, where in the world will there be someone in that scenario that would have knowledge of what a BMI is? And even if they did I doubt they would have access to a set of scales, and we've already eliminated the tape measure so they have no way of measuring their BMI anyway!

Even for study purposes, most are done by researchers (such as the ones I linked to) who do have access to more accurate measuring tools
And I'd feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to do a large scale, self reported study, where their means of measurement are garbage

 

[LanceRomance]

Guys who wear oversized doherty's gym shirts

 

[WakeUpPies]

Why do we have to use BMI though?
Sure, if someone lives by themselves with no access to a mirror, tape measure or medical services they might need to use BMI. But really, where in the world will there be someone in that scenario that would have knowledge of what a BMI is? And even if they did I doubt they would have access to a set of scales, and we've already eliminated the tape measure so they have no way of measuring their BMI anyway!

Even for study purposes, most are done by researchers (such as the ones I linked to) who do have access to more accurate measuring tools
And I'd feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to do a large scale, self reported study, where their means of measurement are garbage

See my edit and no they wouldn't need to use the BMI in that situation because it's not useful if we are just looking at one person. And the big problem is not whether you have access to tools or not. When my supervisor was doing a small scale study just at our university we had to calculate BMI FOR all the study participants because they can't be bothered LOL. We have a BIA machine, but doesn't matter because timeframe didn't allow for us to scan a bunch of people provided they'd even show up.

What would you use in the above situation?

Edit. Off topic ... but some of the diet records / estimates we got back man. #don'twanttoliveonthisplanet

 

[Aeglos]

Hopefully my copy paste quote works

See my edit and no they wouldn't need to use the BMI in that situation because it's not useful if we are just looking at one person. And the big problem is not whether you have access to tools or not. When my supervisor was doing a small scale study just at our university we had to calculate BMI FOR all the study participants because they can't be bothered LOL. We have a BIA machine, but doesn't matter because timeframe didn't allow for us to scan a bunch of people provided they'd even show up.
What would you use in the above situation?

Depends on the context of the study.

Edit. How many people here even know their waist and hip measurements? Now think about collecting that information from someone like my mum who gives zero shit about health and fitness lol.

How many people even know their (accurate) heights and weights?
I've seen people who over estimate their height by 5cm and underestimate their weight by 10kg
To do a worthwhile study it should be the researchers collecting the data, in which case waist to hip is a much better indicator when it comes to risk of CVD

Again, I don't even like the BMI that much but let's not condemn it to hell because of a few silly PTs and Drs.

I think it should be condemned to hell because it's not an indicator to anything other than itself. The Drs and PTs are just silly because they continue to use it

 

[WakeUpPies]

We will agree to disagree re: BMI. All of what you said is valid in theory but not in practice. It's not as easy as you are making it out to be to get a large group of people to cooperate. I'd love if the scientific community could move away from the BMI but most of the time it comes to down to having some data vs. having no data. The BMI as a single measure is not that useful for anything other than identifying trends. However anything used by itself is not useful - in your heart disease example the same is true for things like blood cholesterol or BP as a measure alone. But if a whole group of people had high BMI, cholesterol and BP you'd get a pretty good snapshot of what the overall health of these people'd be like.

To do a worthwhile study it should be the researchers collecting the data, in which case waist to hip is a much better indicator when it comes to risk of CVD

Time, money, compliance, # of researchers you'd need considering how large a meaningful sample size would need to be. It's not as easy as you are making it out to be.

Edit. It's like arguing "why leg press when we have the squat" without taking into account injuries, personal preference, physical limitations and so on ... Although we know they should probably just squat.

 

[Gralin]

My biggest issue with BMI is it's another decide how healthy you are by how much you weigh

People could be in the healthy range and not be able to climb a flight of stairs without getting out of breath, someone else could be made fun of for being obese and be a lot fitter and stronger than the first person.

I know I'm overweight and unfit at the moment, I can tell from looking at my gut in the mirror and from my own knowledge of how little exercise I've done lately

I don't care what the number on the scales says though I will measure my progress based on how I look and feel and what I can do.

I don't have a goal weight in mind, I do have some goals though as far as strength and fitness

 

[Aeglos]

We will agree to disagree re: BMI. All of what you said is valid in theory but not in practice. It's not as easy as you are making it out to be to get a large group of people to cooperate. I'd love if the scientific community could move away from the BMI but most of the time it comes to down to having some data vs. having no data. The BMI as a single measure is not that useful for anything other than identifying trends. However anything used by itself is not useful - in your heart disease example the same is true for things like blood cholesterol or BP as a measure alone. But if a whole group of people had high BMI, cholesterol and BP you'd get a pretty good snapshot of what the overall health of these people'd be like.
Time, money, compliance, # of researchers you'd need considering how large a meaningful sample size would need to be. It's not as easy as you are making it out to be.

How much harder is it to take a waist to hip than BMI though?
I guess that's the bit I'm not quite comprehending
You have two measures of roughly equal 'difficulty' to obtain yet the least 'accurate' is the one always being used?

 

[WakeUpPies]

How much harder is it to take a waist to hip than BMI though?

I obviously can't give you exact numbers since this is all hypothetical but say you have a *small* sample of 1000 people.

First consider how much longer would it take to recruit 1000 people who'd be willing to let you take their waist and hip measurements.
Then consider how you would take those measurements - how do you schedule the participants to come down to get their measurements taken? Do you go out to them to collect that information? How would you get there?
Then consider how much longer that would take, and how much more researchers you'd need, and how much more $$$ you'd need to cover costs.
And we are *only* dealing with 1000 people here.
... Actually before any of that you'd have to find researchers willing to do all that shit ... I was forced into helping with an epi study because I had to do it to finish my degree and it was the worst time of my life just trying to get people to give you their height and weight.

How would you do it for larger samples - say 100000 people?

Like I said, I'd prefer if we could move on from the BMI but it's lasted this long for a reason (because people are shit and practicality).

You have two measures of roughly equal 'difficulty' to obtain

We don't.

Edit. And in the above example we are only looking at collecting BMI/WHR but you'd most likely (I hope) be collecting other data depending on the study, and that just adds more issues to the above.

 

[DemonTim]

I obviously can't give you exact numbers since this is all hypothetical but say you have a *small* sample of 1000 people.

First consider how much longer would it take to recruit 1000 people who'd be willing to let you take their waist and hip measurements.
Then consider how you would take those measurements - how do you schedule the participants to come down to get their measurements taken? Do you go out to them to collect that information? How would you get there?
Then consider how much longer that would take, and how much more researchers you'd need, and how much more $$$ you'd need to cover costs.
And we are *only* dealing with 1000 people here.
... Actually before any of that you'd have to find researchers willing to do all that shit ... I was forced into helping with an epi study because I had to do it to finish my degree and it was the worst time of my life just trying to get people to give you their height and weight.

How would you do it for larger samples - say 100000 people?

Like I said, I'd prefer if we could move on from the BMI but it's lasted this long for a reason (because people are shit and practicality).



We don't.

Edit. And in the above example we are only looking at collecting BMI/WHR but you'd most likely (I hope) be collecting other data depending on the study, and that just adds more issues to the above.

Self reporting from participants is something that is HUGELY criticised in science, especially on sensitive topics (weight would be one of these)
You're basically saying you'd prefer inaccurate results over spending more time

 

[WakeUpPies]

Self reporting from participants is something that is HUGELY criticised in science, especially on sensitive topics (weight would be one of these)
You're basically saying you'd prefer inaccurate results over spending more time

No I prefer having some data vs. no data. What is your solution to the above scenario?

It's easy to say what people should be doing without providing any solutions.

 

[Aeglos]

No I prefer having some data vs. no data. What is your solution to the above scenario?

Data is beyond useless if it is inaccurate to the point where you'd legitimately be better off not doing the study if that was the only alternative

 

[DemonTim]

No I prefer having some data vs. no data. What is your solution to the above scenario?

It's easy to say what people should be doing without providing any solutions.

Yeah but you don't care about the integrity of the data, I'd be surprised if any study relied on what you've said would be given much weight scientifically

The problem isn't that there is no solutions it's that you (and a lot of researchers) are lazy/lack budget/lack the ability to persuade an increased budget.

Although it's fairly easy. A study based on self reporting is worthless

 

[DemonTim]

Data is beyond useless if it is inaccurate to the point where you'd legitimately be better off not doing the study if that was the only alternative

I'd be hoping that their self reports had a hell of a lot of questions if they're studying BMI. You can't just lump everyone together and draw a conclusion.

 

[WakeUpPies]

Yeah but you don't care about the integrity of the data, I'd be surprised if any study relied on what you've said would be given much weight scientifically

The problem isn't that there is no solutions it's that you (and a lot of researchers) are lazy/lack budget/lack the ability to persuade an increased budget.

Although it's fairly easy. A study based on self reporting is worthless

You still haven't given me any solutions yet. It's easy to say "just do xyz" but actually doing it is the hard part. Like I said we will have to agree to disagree on the BMI being completely useless for all applications.

 

[WakeUpPies]

Data is beyond useless if it is inaccurate to the point where you'd legitimately be better off not doing the study if that was the only alternative

A) you are assuming the data is inaccurate to the point where you'd legitimately be better off not doing the study
B) if all the researchers in history applied that way of thinking then we would not know anything right now

 

[DemonTim]

You still haven't given me any solutions yet. It's easy to say "just do xyz" but actually doing it is the hard part. Like I said we will have to agree to disagree on the BMI being completely useless for all applications.

As I said. You have been given them. You just respond "nah. Takes too long" "nah. Too hard" "nah. No money"
You're only justification is "some data is better than none". Which is just false, if you are drawing conclusions off some data, that is inaccurate, that is in no way better than no data

A) you are assuming the data is inaccurate to the point where you'd legitimately be better off not doing the study
B) if all the researchers in history applied that way of thinking then we would not know anything right now

Well no, if researchers applied your logic over history research methods would never have improved and social science would be considered a hard science

 

[WakeUpPies]

As I said. You have been given them. You just respond "nah. Takes too long" "nah. Too hard" "nah. No money"

No you haven't, you just listed a bunch of things to do without expanding on how you'd do them. YYou just started your own business yes? So if you are struggling for $$$ (hope not, best of luck by the way) and someone just told you to "well go get more clients." How useful would that be to you?

You're only justification is "some data is better than none". Which is just false, if you are drawing conclusions off some data, that is inaccurate, that is in no way better than no data

You assume the data is inaccurate to the point that it is beyond useful. That's what statistical test are for. You are being way too overly simplistic (granted I gave you an over simplistic example).

Well no, if researchers applied your logic over history research methods would never have improved and social science would be considered a hard science

See above re: statistics and my overly simplistic example. We are all running off assumptions re: validity of the data and collection methods which you'd take into account in an actual study.

 

[DemonTim]

No you haven't, you just listed a bunch of things to do without expanding on how you'd do them. YYou just started your own business yes? So if you are struggling for $$$ (hope not, best of luck by the way) and someone just told you to "well go get more clients." How useful would that be to you?



You assume the data is inaccurate to the point that it is beyond useful. That's what statistical test are for. You are being way too overly simplistic (granted I gave you an over simplistic example).



See above re: statistics and my overly simplistic example. We are all running off assumptions re: validity of the data and collection methods which you'd take into account in an actual study.

I gave you a bunch of things, which directly related to aeglos points. I was simply responding to your reasons of why they're not possible. To make your comparison valid it would be:
I'm struggling for dollars as a PT
Maybe advertise more, or put more time into building your business
Nah. No time and money. I'll just continue doing what I'm doing

It's an overly simplistic way of studying and a method that has been torn apart scientifically for years. How exactly are you measuring validity of height and weight from a self report? Are you measuring it yourself? If you are why would you use such a flawed method when you could do a much better measure in the same time (HWP, caliber)

Besides the point, we were all pretty obviously discussing BMI and use for individuals, defending it from a "it's good for very large scale studies" isn't a valid point. Using it in studies also perpetuates the use on the individual

 

[Aeglos]

Better yet, lets test for climate change by asking a bunch of people if they have noticed if the ocean waters are warmer or not.
I'm sure the data collected from 5 million Australian's is better than none right?
Or at least better than 100 Australian's measuring the water regularly with thermometers?

 

[DemonTim]

Better yet, lets test for climate change by asking a bunch of people if they have noticed if the ocean waters are warmer or not

Exactly
Considering the implications and conclusions that using this can lead to (illness, mortality, morbidity etc) a "oh well we did what we could" doesn't cut it

 

[WakeUpPies]

I gave you a bunch of things, which directly related to aeglos points. I was simply responding to your reasons of why they're not possible. To make your comparison valid it would be:
I'm struggling for dollars as a PT
Maybe advertise more, or put more time into building your business
Nah. No time and money. I'll just continue doing what I'm doing

Say you will be bankrupt in 6 months and you don't have an unlimited amount of time to put into your business, how useful would the surface level advice to advertise more and put more time into building your business be?

It's an overly simplistic way of studying and a method that has been torn apart scientifically for years. How exactly are you measuring validity of height and weight from a self report? Are you measuring it yourself? If you are why would you use such a flawed method when you could do a much better measure in the same time (HWP, caliber)

You are working off the assumption it takes the same amount of time to do a WHR and take caliber of a large group of people vs. collecting height and weight, which is wrong. And yes it's been trashed which is why you don't use it as a sole source to draw conclusion, rather inconjuction with other data, notice trends and as idea generating to test it further ... my point is how would you justify testing a hypothesis further if you just think "well it's inaccurate." and don't have the data to justify further studies?

Besides the point, we were all pretty obviously discussing BMI and use for individuals, defending it from a "it's good for very large scale studies" isn't a valid point. Using it in studies also perpetuates the use on the individual

Definitely agree on first point. On second you don't use it as the sole measure and don't put words into my mouth, I said it's "*fairly* useful" with asterisks.

 

[WakeUpPies]

Better yet, lets test for climate change by asking a bunch of people if they have noticed if the ocean waters are warmer or not.
I'm sure the data collected from 5 million Australian's is better than none right?
Or at least better than 100 Australian's measuring the water regularly with thermometers?

You wouldn't run that study though.

Lol... so many strawmans

 

[DemonTim]

Say you will be bankrupt in 6 months and you don't have an unlimited amount of time to put into your business, how useful would the surface level advice to advertise more and put more time into building your business be?



You are working off the assumption it takes the same amount of time to do a WHR and take caliber of a large group of people vs. collecting height and weight, which is wrong. And yes it's been trashed which is why you don't use it as a sole source to draw conclusion, rather inconjuction with other data, notice trends and as idea generating to test it further ... my point is how would you justify testing a hypothesis further if you just think "well it's inaccurate." and don't have the data to justify further studies?



Definitely agree on first point. On second you don't use it as the sole measure and don't put words into my mouth, I said it's "*fairly* useful" with asterisks.

How would I be bankrupt from that? Are you suggesting that putting enough resources into a study to accurately measure something would send the researchers bankrupt?

To measure height and weight accurately you could quite easily measure waist and hip. I'd know, I've done it countless times calipers would take maybe twice as long, but hardly an extended amount of time.

So you're not even using the data to draw conclusions, you're using it to decide whether or not you want to run tests on your hypothesis?! That's an even bigger waste of time!

Sigh. My point was we were discussing individuals, you tried to shift away from our criticisms by shifting from the individual. It doesn't negate our concerns, and it's disingenuous to bring it up in a discussion on the individual

 

[Aeglos]

You wouldn't run that study though.

Lol... so many strawmans

How's that any different to your (proposed) study?
You are legitimately implying that published incorrect or irrelevant research data is better than publishing none at all.

 

[DemonTim]

How's that any different to your (proposed) study?
You are legitimately implying that published incorrect or irrelevant research data is better than publishing none at all.

It's a common viewpoint held by Uni academics, it keeps them getting funding. The shit I've seen some friends get approved at very large Melbourne unis is a joke.