Recruiting Trade & Free Agency IV - hypotheticals etc. (Continued in Part V)

[Red Black and Blue]

but id argue the best Ruckmen are drafted early and stay.

kruz, grundy, goldy, nn, ect

Cox, Sandilands, Jacobs, Mumford would disagree. There is no sweet science to say one way is better.

 

[Howard Moon]

Just not ours

lets not revisit...

 

[Howard Moon]

its interesting though - with the rule changes, they have isolated the two ruckmen to let them ply their 'craft' then they start pinging frees left and right for using your craft - you can use an arm but not a stiff arm, jump into your opponent but don't do it so hard that they are blocked.. what even is ruck work???

will the point come where you just need an extra super tall midfielder??

 

[Haychh]

We can't throw all our eggs in the Draper basket. At this stage we will need a new starting ruck in the next 2-3 years. If you have the opportunity to draft a guy to be your starting ruck for 12 years surely you take that opportunity to draft him at pick 12-15. If Draper happens to turn into a star then we are lucky enough to have 2 gun rucks or we use Draper as currency.

 

[Howard Moon]

We can't throw all our eggs in the Draper basket. At this stage we will need a new starting ruck in the next 2-3 years. If you have the opportunity to draft a guy to be your starting ruck for 12 years surely you take that opportunity to draft him at pick 12-15. If Draper happens to turn into a star then we are lucky enough to have 2 gun rucks or we use Draper as currency.

to me, tbell and luey look like the types that will drop off the cliff very fast when it happens, id hate to be left in a bind

 

[TheGrizz]

i'm pretty keen on hayes but understand we need the inside bull..

buuuut if we are going best avail and hes there - do you?

I do. In a heart beat.

 

[Teflon Dons]

I think Draper is going to be a very good ruck in a few years. He's very athletic for a ruck and is adapting very well.

My philosophy on rucks is just entice a developing one away from a competitor.

Rucks just aren't worth high picks in my opinion.

Yeah unless it's Nic Nat no thx. Good rucks come from everywhere when you start winning. Should be at the bottom of our immediate list.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Yeah unless it's Nic Nat no thx. Good rucks come from everywhere when you start winning. Should be at the bottom of our immediate list.

I would be shocked if we picked up a ruck through the national draft. If one were available as a rookie then that's where you pick them.

 

[TheGrizz]

I think you are underselling what Draper can do. He's very mobile and has nice skills and attacks the ball in the air which few ruckman can do.

I think he's going to be another Dodoro special.

I like the way Dodoro has used his picks in the last few drafts.

He has mostly gone with best available in the first round and then in the second round when the mids start to look vanilla he picks somebody like Begley, Laverde, Langford and Merrett with less exposure to midfield but with skillsets that can be adapted easily to the middle of the ground. It's a higher risk option but with far greater upside than just picking a Mathieson.

He has a very good history of picking talls later in the draft.

Dont get me wrong. I think Draper coukd easily turn into a quality B+ to A- ruck if he continues his current development. In fact in my ealier comment i wanted draper promoted this offseason. He is a lump of a lad who can jump and win hitouts (tick), flies at marking contests (tick) and loves to lay tackles (double tick!!!!).

But i suppose what i was saying is that despite his strengths i dont believe he will ever turn into a 15-20 disposal ruckman ala Cox/Ryder/Martin. In a period where ball movement is vital, having what is effectively another midfielder once the ball is in general play is huge. I think english has that potential whereas Draper probably not.

Draper can still be a quality ruck though. Just look at TBC yesterday to see how effective a traditional ruck can be. But having the ability to be involved in effective disposal chains takes you from good/effective to bona fide game changer

 

[Fin ice Smuggler]

I recall a few years ago hearing Dodoro on Triple M talk about drafting rucks and stated that Sheedy always told him it was the most important role to recruit, then you build a team around them.

the game has changed though since 1984/5. I think you just need a solid ruck these days with a plethora over mids that are able to roll in and out of the centre. Goods mids, read opposition rucks.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

First pick needs to be used on a inside mid we can find another ruck with one of our later picks or rookie draft.

 

[TheGrizz]

to me, tbell and luey look like the types that will drop off the cliff very fast when it happens, id hate to be left in a bind

My philosophy with rucks is that you need 4 om your list.

2 ready to play. This keeps them sharp because of competition for spots.
1 developing on the senior list but still able to contribute if we have a situation like round 1 this year.
1 developing on rookie list.

We have the first two (TBC and leuey).
And our rookie (draper). It is why the reselection of mckernan confused me.
If we draft Hayes (pretty please Dodoro) then draper gets another year as a rookie to develop.

If we dont then promote Draper and rookie strachan.
If draper continues his current pace of development then i can see him pinch hittimg next year at senior level if needed.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Dont get me wrong. I think Draper coukd easily turn into a quality B+ to A- ruck if he continues his current development. In fact in my ealier comment i wanted draper promoted this offseason. He is a lump of a lad who can jump and win hitouts (tick), flies at marking contests (tick) and loves to lay tackles (double tick!!!!).

But i suppose what i was saying is that despite his strengths i dont believe he will ever turn into a 15-20 disposal ruckman ala Cox/Ryder/Martin. In a period where ball movement is vital, having what is effectively another midfielder once the ball is in general play is huge. I think english has that potential whereas Draper probably not.

Draper can still be a quality ruck though. Just look at TBC yesterday to see how effective a traditional ruck can be. But having the ability to be involved in effective disposal chains takes you from good/effective to bona fide game changer

I agree with what you are saying in regards to having a ruck that can get involved around the ground. the thing is though they are hard to find and their is no guarantee that English will be that player. The margin for error is just so much greater for tall players in general and that's why they are rarely taken higher.

I have stood up close to English a few times at the VFL and he is tall but also extremely skinny. That for me is what creates the risk. If over the next 3 or 4 years he continues to fill out what does that do to his mobility and also balance? Draper has a bigger frame than English and yet is still very mobile and athletic and I don't see him being as a bigger risk because we only used a rookie pick on him.

Time will tell but I like Dodoro's strategy around rucks.

 

[Killer_Mike]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/08/28/hes-the-perfect-player-the-dees-need-lyon/

Gary Lyon thinks he's found the player to help lift the Dees.

If Whitfield is gettable we should be inquiring.

 

[TheGrizz]

I agree with what you are saying in regards to having a ruck that can get involved around the ground. the thing is though they are hard to find and their is no guarantee that English will be that player. The margin for error is just so much greater for tall players in general and that's why they are rarely taken higher.

I have stood up close to English a few times at the VFL and he is tall but also extremely skinny. That for me is what creates the risk. If over the next 3 or 4 years he continues to fill out what does that do to his mobility and also balance? Draper has a bigger frame than English and yet is still very mobile and athletic and I don't see him being as a bigger risk because we only used a rookie pick on him.

Time will tell but I like Dodoro's strategy around rucks.

Agree 100% with the risk involved. Its all potential at this stage. And like i said before for every Brodie Grundy or Ryder there is an Ayce Cordy or billy longer. I think that is why clubs have stopped drafting rucks in the top 10 as the risk is high.

But im bullish on English. I think he has the game sense and ability. It will take 3-4 years to build his body but i reckon he will make it. Draper is probably (ironically) a surer thing because of his body type (though still no certainty) to be a contributor, i think however English has a higher ceiling.

 

[Howard Moon]

My philosophy with rucks is that you need 4 om your list.

2 ready to play. This keeps them sharp because of competition for spots.
1 developing on the senior list but still able to contribute if we have a situation like round 1 this year.
1 developing on rookie list.

We have the first two (TBC and leuey).
And our rookie (draper). It is why the reselection of mckernan confused me.
If we draft Hayes (pretty please Dodoro) then draper gets another year as a rookie to develop.

If we dont then promote Draper and rookie strachan.
If draper continues his current pace of development then i can see him pinch hittimg next year at senior level if needed.

it makes the trade whisperer (I know) call more intriguing - that we are making a play for ports Trengove - is he the third guy who can pinch hit but be of use elsewhere?

 

[TheGrizz]

it makes the trade whisperer (I know) call more intriguing - that we are making a play for ports Trengove - is he the third guy who can pinch hit but be of use elsewhere?

If we are going after Trengove i highly doubt its for depth rucking as he is predominately forward atm. He would be coming over on some serious coin or it would be hard to pry him from Port. He is the exact player i would be targeting if i was carlton/collingwood as clubs who desperately need mature KPF. Rucking is a bonus.

I imagine he plays forward amd pinch hits but Joe already does that and im not sure he is a better forward than Hooker or stewart. Would be a strange addition, and i have this feeling that it could turn into a Mayne-esque situation *shudders*

That depth ruck (for me) has to be a guy who is developing for when TBC or leuey fall off the proverbial cliff. Which is why i think Hayes in the ND or promoting draper.

 

[Haychh]

Agree 100% with the risk involved. Its all potential at this stage. And like i said before for every Brodie Grundy or Ryder there is an Ayce Cordy or billy longer. I think that is why clubs have stopped drafting rucks in the top 10 as the risk is high.

You can say that about any position though. For every Bontempelli or Clayton Oliver there is a Jimmy Toumpas or Cale Morton

 

[Howard Moon]

If we are going after Trengove i highly doubt its for depth rucking as he is predominately forward atm. He would be coming over on some serious coin or it would be hard to pry him from Port. He is the exact player i would be targeting if i was carlton/collingwood as clubs who desperately need mature KPF. Rucking is a bonus.

I imagine he plays forward amd pinch hits but Joe already does that and im not sure he is a better forward than Hooker or stewart. Would be a strange addition, and i have this feeling that it could turn into a Mayne-esque situation *shudders*

That depth ruck (for me) has to be a guy who is developing for when TBC or leuey fall off the proverbial cliff. Which is why i think Hayes in the ND or promoting draper.

how about a tom nicholls?

 

[Yoda_]

My philosophy with rucks is that you need 4 om your list.

2 ready to play. This keeps them sharp because of competition for spots.
1 developing on the senior list but still able to contribute if we have a situation like round 1 this year.
1 developing on rookie list.

We have the first two (TBC and leuey).
And our rookie (draper). It is why the reselection of mckernan confused me.
If we draft Hayes (pretty please Dodoro) then draper gets another year as a rookie to develop.

If we dont then promote Draper and rookie strachan.
If draper continues his current pace of development then i can see him pinch hittimg next year at senior level if needed.

Would just like to confirm this is not an alias account of Yoda_ PTY LTD inc.

 

[TheGrizz]

You can say that about any position though. For every Bontempelli or Clayton Oliver there is a Jimmy Toumpas or Cale Morton

Yeah but that isnt the point of the discussion. Rucks carry a greater risk than oyher positions because of their development timetable and the fact they are more hit and miss than other positions. Afl clubs have shown an unwillingness to draft rucks early. No such decline with mids

 

[MightyDons4]

i'm pretty keen on hayes but understand we need the inside bull..

buuuut if we are going best avail and hes there - do you?

God no.

 

[Yoda_]

D_P_S

how much better is Sam Hayes compared to the other guys most likely available in the national draft? (namely Tom De Koning and Cal Coleman - Jones?)

If the latter guys were more than likely available later, would have no hesitation passing on Hayes and grabbing a CCj with a 2nd or 3rd rounder

 

[eDPS]

D_P_S

how much better is Sam Hayes compared to the other guys most likely available in the national draft? (namely Tom De Koning and Cal Coleman - Jones?)

If the later guys were more than likely available later, would have no hesitation passing on Hayes and grabbing a CCj with a 2nd or 3rd rounder

Hayes for me is better than CCJ but not by a great amount, I havnt seen enough of CCJ this year and his season ending injury hasn't helped. Could be available at our 2nd and 3rd. De Koning lacks the consistency but his upside should see him get drafted late or as a rookie. There is plenty of ruckman later that you could take a punt on.

You wont find a quality mid close to the calibre of those available at 12 at our 2rd, maybe our 2nd if we are lucky with say a James Worpel, Dylan Moore, Trent Mynott, Lachlan Fogarty.

If we want a good small rebounding defender to cover McGrath it will be hard to find a good one after the 3rd round. could take a punt on Noah Answerth but he copped a nasty spinal injury early in the year. If his body can hold up he would be an inspired choice as a rookie.

 

[Yoda_]

Hayes for me is better than CCJ but not by a great amount, I havnt seen enough of CCJ this year and his season ending injury hasn't helped. Could be available at our 2nd and 3rd. De Koning lacks the consistency but his upside should see him get drafted late or as a rookie. There is plenty of ruckman later that you could take a punt on.

If Hayes were a 7/10 for his age group, CCJ was a 6/10, is Hayes a far superior player? Starting to seriously doubt it. If DeKoning were a 5.5/10 he could even be sufficient enough.

You wont find a quality mid close to the calibre of those available at 12 at our 2rd, maybe our 2nd if we are lucky with say a James Worpel, Dylan Moore, Trent Mynott, Lachlan Fogarty.

If we want a good small rebounding defender to cover McGrath it will be hard to find a good one after the 3rd round. could take a punt on Noah Answerth but he copped a nasty spinal injury early in the year. If his body can hold up he would be an inspired choice as a rookie.

Get a feeling we either a0 trade our first, or b) go for an inside midfielder with it.

Just a gut feeling. The kid Mynot is seriously appealing to me, seems to be able to do it all without any standout features.