No Oppo Supporters General AFL Discussion #10 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

[My name geoff]

I take it quite seriously and so do a lot of others.

Ok let me rephrase that... if you want male footballers who have played the sport to take the AFLW seriously.

 

[thylacine60]

Is there a pointless bellyaching and close-minded criticism of women's footy thread up yet?

 

[Aphrodite]

Nice uneducated subjective opinion

 

[AceAndy]

Don't understand the need to compare the standard of AFLW with the mens game.

Why can't it be celebrated for what it is, a fledgling competition for the best women to showcase their talents in a game that has been denied to them at the elite level because of their gender, not their ability to play?

If the women's comp is to be taken seriously as an elite football league, it has to be a lot better than what it Currently is. That's the reality.

Great that the women are playing the game and have the same opportunity as the men. It took too long. But no one is going to take it seriously as a football competition until it starts comparing to the men's version.

I think the AFLW has done a great job of tapping into this sentiment and a lot of supporters on this board are clearly excited and passionate about the womens game.

I have said before i am probably not as emotionally invested as a lot of others and if Carlton did not have an AFLW team i am not sure i would really watch the women's games.

Anyway , it does surprise me that people have an expectation that the womens game should be comparable to the men, doesnt really happen in any sport. Tennis - women only play best of 3 sets whereas men best of 5, golf - the ladies play off shorter tees and i am sure there are other examples of sports the game/rules are modified. I dont see anyone complaining or refusing to watch womens tennis because it is only best of 3 sets or ladies golf because they dont hit the ball as far as the men.

 

[My name geoff]

[the longest of sighs]

no

I've seen VFL games at a lower standard than some of the AFLW. Once you factor in that this is a pre-season competition, it almost draws even. There are definitely some with horrible footskills, but I've seen way too many tired kicks. I've also seen lots of elite kicks.

I also pointed out earlier why most women would be rather insular about male opinions. Perhaps make more effort on your part to accommodate that and a trusting environment of constructive criticism will evolve.

There has never been a vfl game of a lower standard than the AFLW. That is objectively false.

My first coach when I was a five year old used to make any player who didn't kick a drop punt at training do laps. Every time.

I don't see this level of discipline at AFLW level. As a result, their skills are novice.

To help them improve to the level where people can appreciate their skills, they are going to require a greater level of criticism than what is levelled at mini-leaguers.

The reaction to my objective, educated assesment is evidence of the culture which I was referring to.

 

[BlueGum]

Nice uneducated subjective opinion

Not like the criticism?

 

[My name geoff]

I think the AFLW has done a great job of tapping into this sentiment and a lot of supporters on this board are clearly excited and passionate about the womens game.

I have said before i am probably not as emotionally invested as a lot of others and if Carlton did not have an AFLW team i am not sure i would really watch the women's games.

Anyway , it does surprise me that people have an expectation that the womens game should be comparable to the men, doesnt really happen in any sport. Tennis - women only play best of 3 sets whereas men best of 5, golf - the ladies play off shorter tees and i am sure there are other examples of sports the game/rules are modified. I dont see anyone complaining or refusing to watch womens tennis because it is only best of 3 sets or ladies golf because they dont hit the ball as far as the men.

It's the relative skill comparison.

We expect women to compete at an equal skill level to men given the physical discrepancies.

What I'm saying is that the women of the AFLW are competeing at the skill level of u10 - u15 boys. This is why many people aren't taking it seriously.

 

[My name geoff]

Not like the criticism?

Like the criticism when it is grounded in some sort of real understanding.

 

[Aphrodite]

Good lord!

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

Ok let me rephrase that... if you want male footballers who have played the sport to take the AFLW seriously.

If you don't enjoy it, don't watch it. Don't shit on the league or the women who play it.

I'm so tired. I'm so sick of being told that women need to achieve x, y, and z to be taken seriously by men. I'm sick of not being given an equal starting point and then not being allowed any grace period when trying desperately to catch up. I'm tired of explaining that leagues (and society) aren't being unfair to men, men just aren't the automatic favourites with all of the advantages anymore.

These women are elite athletes and should be given some respect.

 

[My name geoff]

If you don't enjoy it, don't watch it. Don't shit on the league or the women who play it.

I'm so tired. I'm so sick of being told that women need to achieve x, y, and z to be taken seriously by men. I'm sick of not being given an equal starting point and then not being allowed any grace period when trying desperately to catch up. I'm tired of explaining that leagues (and society) aren't being unfair to men, men just aren't the automatic favourites with all of the advantages anymore.

Every time people go to check what's going on in the AFL they are flooded with AFLW. People have a right to criticise it, and if the AFLW wants to reach the level where people eventually pay to watch it and the women can make a living from it, then embrace the criticism.

 

[AceAndy]

It's the relative skill comparison.

We expect women to compete at an equal skill level to men given the physical discrepancies.

What I'm saying is that the women of the AFLW are competeing at the skill level of u10 - u15 boys. This is why many people aren't taking it seriously.

Been awhile since i watched u10 - u15 boys footy so not sure how the skill level compares.

Did you catch any of the Saturday games ? I thought the skill level / overall standard of both these games was above Friday nights.

 

[Iamcarlton]

Ok let me rephrase that... if you want male footballers who have played the sport to take the AFLW seriously.

Isnt there a few ex AFL footballers involved with the womens teams ? Andrew Mcleod seems to be by his new role with Adelaide on the bench or was that a one off in their first game .
One can use expansion teams GWS and Gold Coast as an example that it just takes time . AFLW Is the same its an expansion competition GWS and GC were 3-4 years before being competitive . The women are part time and will need much more time than that so the expectations should meet that standing ATM .
Until their almost full timers playing more games and training much more than they currently do this is the product you will get .
Needs time nurturing patience and plenty of support for the competition to be sustainable long term . Seems the AFL are prepared to do that .

 

[Jimmae]

Nice uneducated subjective opinion

There has never been a vfl game of a lower standard than the AFLW. That is objectively false.

My first coach when I was a five year old used to make any player who didn't kick a drop punt at training do laps. Every time.

I don't see this level of discipline at AFLW level. As a result, their skills are novice.

To help them improve to the level where people can appreciate their skills, they are going to require a greater level of criticism than what is levelled at mini-leaguers.

The reaction to my objective, educated assesment is evidence of the culture which I was referring to.

Your opinion is largely subjective given you are speaking from your own experience. As for education, you've been extremely tight-lipped on specifics beyond that you tend to work around the SANFL environment.

What's important to remember is that all the education and experience in the world don't necessarily grant you objectivity.

 

[My name geoff]

Your opinion is largely subjective given you are speaking from your own experience. As for education, you've been extremely tight-lipped on specifics beyond that you tend to work around the SANFL environment.

What's important to remember is that all the education and experience in the world don't necessarily grant you objectivity.

I'm speaking objectively about the environment which I have been tasked to assist.

My subjective opinion is that the girls go hard, love their footy and I was actually surprised by the intensity of their competition.

But that is not going to help them get to where they need to be.

My unbiased assessment of the culture around the training etc is that their is not nearly enough scrutiny on the girls. As a result of this, from AFLW down to amatures, they are developing an entitlement. This will slow down progress dramatically.

The competition will not be taken seriously until the skill level is relative to where it should be. Which it is currently a long way off

 

[Blue Pulse]

My first coach when I was a five year old used to make any player who didn't kick a drop punt at training do laps. Every time.

Sorry to disappoint but your coach sounds like a dinosaur.

Why tire the legs by making a person run laps, this will not improve their kicking technique. I believe in discipline but it would have to focus on a repetitive correct kicking technique not running laps.

If I applied the same discipline to my under 12's as per my daughters dance classes I would be asked to move on within a week.

 

[DangerousD]

I was moved to write this post as a result of a handful of posts in tonight's gameday discussion thread bemoaning the poor skills on show (posts which are by no means invalid). I posted similarly last year.

When looking at the AFLW competition we must take into account the football background of those playing in the competition. You will hear throughout the commentary of these games about the various sports that these women have come from to play in this competition. Basketball, netball, soccer, there was even a Collingwood player who had a background in dirt bike competitions, but it goes far deeper than this.

We are not that far removed from the days when girls could only play football in the boys' junior competitions & only until a certain age. Once they reached the deemed age limit, they were tossed out of the game entirely as there was no female competition to cater for them from their mid-teens. Many of the women playing in the AFLW were victims of these rules & of course have not received the ongoing coaching, training & match practice to enable them to develop their skills/football nous in the way their male counterparts have. Access to football for girls at school has only become available in recent years. Many of your male TAC Cup graduates have been fortunate enough to not only receive ongoing coaching in local junior competitions, but also in properly sanctioned school competitions, where many have been coached by ex-AFL players.

Realistically, it may well be a minimum of another 5 years before we start seeing females graduating to the AFLW competition with improved skill levels. By then these girls should have had 7-8 years of ongoing coaching & matchday experience. They will also most likely be fitter & more mobile than the current AFLW players, having had access to facilities that some of the current women could only have dreamed of. A better fitness level should invariably assist the skill level.

My advice to Carlton supporters who find the current quality of the AFLW competition frustrating/hard to watch is to remember that at the end of the day all that matters is whether those women who are pulling on the Navy Blue & White jumper are winning. A 3.4.22 to 2.2.14 win is every bit as good as a 15.10.100 to 13.14.92 win.

Can't like this post enough, some people on social media just love sticking the boots in and would like nothing better than the comp fail, a very good post.

 

[My name geoff]

Sorry to disappoint but your coach sounds like a dinosaur.

Why tire the legs by making a person run laps, this will not improve their kicking technique. I believe in discipline but it would have to focus on a repetitive correct kicking technique not running laps.

If I applied the same discipline to my under 12's as per my daughters dance classes I would be asked to move on within a week.

You obviously miss the point of why this approach was taken.

Kids at the age of 5 have little interest in kicking drop punts. You can try to teach technique all you want, but the students don't want to learn. Not doing laps was a great incentive to learn how to kick a drop punt, as well as instilling discipline. I went from tumble punts to drop punts in the matter of weeks.

In training many of these girls regularly kick tumble punts. They have little interest in working on skills to reach a competent level because all they are getting is positive encouragement.

 

[Aphrodite]

I was moved to write this post as a result of a handful of posts in tonight's gameday discussion thread bemoaning the poor skills on show (posts which are by no means invalid). I posted similarly last year.

When looking at the AFLW competition we must take into account the football background of those playing in the competition. You will hear throughout the commentary of these games about the various sports that these women have come from to play in this competition. Basketball, netball, soccer, there was even a Collingwood player who had a background in dirt bike competitions, but it goes far deeper than this.

We are not that far removed from the days when girls could only play football in the boys' junior competitions & only until a certain age. Once they reached the deemed age limit, they were tossed out of the game entirely as there was no female competition to cater for them from their mid-teens. Many of the women playing in the AFLW were victims of these rules & of course have not received the ongoing coaching, training & match practice to enable them to develop their skills/football nous in the way their male counterparts have. Access to football for girls at school has only become available in recent years. Many of your male TAC Cup graduates have been fortunate enough to not only receive ongoing coaching in local junior competitions, but also in properly sanctioned school competitions, where many have been coached by ex-AFL players.

Realistically, it may well be a minimum of another 5 years before we start seeing females graduating to the AFLW competition with improved skill levels. By then these girls should have had 7-8 years of ongoing coaching & matchday experience. They will also most likely be fitter & more mobile than the current AFLW players, having had access to facilities that some of the current women could only have dreamed of. A better fitness level should invariably assist the skill level.

My advice to Carlton supporters who find the current quality of the AFLW competition frustrating/hard to watch is to remember that at the end of the day all that matters is whether those women who are pulling on the Navy Blue & White jumper are winning. A 3.4.22 to 2.2.14 win is every bit as good as a 15.10.100 to 13.14.92 win.

 

[passmark]

Rock apes will rock ape.

 

[DangerousD]

If you don't enjoy it, don't watch it. Don't shit on the league or the women who play it.

I'm so tired. I'm so sick of being told that women need to achieve x, y, and z to be taken seriously by men. I'm sick of not being given an equal starting point and then not being allowed any grace period when trying desperately to catch up. I'm tired of explaining that leagues (and society) aren't being unfair to men, men just aren't the automatic favourites with all of the advantages anymore.

These women are elite athletes and should be given some respect.

Hit reply instead of like, sorry.

 

[passmark]

I'm just watching the WBBL final .

Nobody expects the players in this to be at the level of the mens team.

 

[lily of laguna]

It's the relative skill comparison.

We expect women to compete at an equal skill level to men given the physical discrepancies.

What I'm saying is that the women of the AFLW are competeing at the skill level of u10 - u15 boys. This is why many people aren't taking it seriously.

The circles you are moving in that don't take it seriously are irrelevant.
It is avenue, vehicle for women and girls to engage in sport that hasnt existed until recently.
You and your cohort of like-minded individuals have failed to see it is a great move towards inclusion and celebration of half the population.
Embrace it for those reasons at the very least.
If you dont enjoy the spectacle, find something else to do with your time.

 

[ODNBlue]

While I disagree with geoff's overall assessment, and it would be quite easy to dismiss everything he is writing by characterising him as just another misogynist, it's probably worth taking a step back and considering some of the things he is saying.

I haven't played a competitive game of football since I was 12 (preferred cricket as a kid) and so cannot comment on the nature of coaching in boys football, however it is possible that there is more mollycoddling in the women's game than what would ever be seen in the men's. This may be to its detriment, or it may simply be that encouragement is a better form of motivator perhaps. I'm not sure either way.

What I do know for sure is that no-one can criticise the endeavour the women show. They are giving it there all and the game will only improve with more and more years of professional coaching for the girls in the junior ranks.

Finally, in my opinion, suggesting that no-one would pay to watch the women because they're not as good as under 15 boys, and no-one would pay to watch them, is missing the point. I'd pay to watch the women because they are the elite women's footballers playing for my beloved Carlton. I wouldn't pay to watch the under 15's because they are not the elite footballers playing for my beloved Carlton.



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[Aphrodite]

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