Analysis 2019 List, Game Plan and Best 22?

[scaryness]

McCartin will probably play round 1 if Menzel isn't ready to go, unless we go with Naismith/Sinclair combo in which Sinclair will take his spot up forward.

 

[Dubsforsam1]

If we play two rucks I can foresee Buddy spending far more time outside the F50 delivering quality ball in.

For people who criticise Horse based on games v richmond/gold coast etc not give him credit for beating west coast twice, collingwood, hawthorn etc and having the best record against top 8 teams last year?

As for comparing us last year to Richmond in 2017 in terms of forward structure. Yes Richmond played with one marking target but he was (A) fully fit compared to Buddy and also is naturally an outstanding marking player which Buddy isn't and (B) they also could throw Dusty down there. I am pretty sure if we had Buddy fully fit, and threw in Rance, Martin and Cochin into last year's team they would have been far better.

West Coast won this year with multiple talls playing a relatively slow and deliberate style.

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[connolly]

I really admire Sinkers as a whole hearted player. His efforts in the ruck last year were great. As a ruckman he is a bit undersized and his tapwork skills are b grade (good ordinary player) at best. As a kpf he is limited. Yep he can take the odd grab, crash packs and is a reliable kick. But he is not quick or creative enough to play there on a close to full time basis.

There is a risk that we will move from the undersized 2018 forward line of one tall (Buddy) and a classic third tall (McCartin) to an oversized one in 2019 that includes Buddy, Sinkers, Reid and Menzell. Maybe the bomb it in game plan any old way approach will result in a few more marks inside F50. It will need to, otherwise I can see opposition defenders easily waltzing the ball out.

Menzel is hard for defences to match up on. He will get the third tall defender or a smaller player. He is such a good mark and a good kick for goal he will kick goals. Which must be an improvement for a forward line in 2018 that was abysmal (12 scoring shots against Richmond and 14 against Geelong at the SCG Round 17) against good defences.

 

[connolly]

If we play two rucks I can foresee Buddy spending far more time outside the F50 delivering quality ball in.

For people who criticise Horse based on games v richmond/gold coast etc not give him credit for beating west coast twice, collingwood, hawthorn etc and having the best record against top 8 teams last year?

As for comparing us last year to Richmond in 2017 in terms of forward structure. Yes Richmond played with one marking target but he was (A) fully fit compared to Buddy and also is naturally an outstanding marking player which Buddy isn't and (B) they also could throw Dusty down there. I am pretty sure if we had Buddy fully fit, and threw in Rance, Martin and Cochin into last year's team they would have been far better.

West Coast won this year with multiple talls playing a relatively slow and deliberate style.

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So you would play the best key position forward of the last generation up the ground delivering the ball into a forward line to Reid who averages a goal a game? God help us. The complaint about the Richmond game was that we beat them in all key stats over the ground and managed 12 shots at goal. By the way Buddy kicked four against Rance that night. Reiwoldt took 16 marks on a forward line that took 17 and kicked three goals one less than Buddy. Fortunately he didn't kick straight. Just for the record George Hewitt subdued Martin and Kennedy thrashed Cotchin with 37 possessions. And we managed only 8 shots on goal apart from Franklin's individual brilliance. Don't blame the players for that defeat. It was in the coaches box.

 

[connolly]

I must admit that I'm not a Reid fan, largely because he doesn't have an AFL capable body. However, I can tell you for a fact that the coaches certainly don't view him as a "good ordinary player". He performs a role and does a lot of 1%ers that most people don't see with the naked eye. The coaches love him and view him as one of our most important players. I would think that the coaches would be the best judges of our players because they know what the players role is.

Which coaches are these? He didn't play last year. You mean the ones we replaced?

 

[Dubsforsam1]

So you would play the best key position forward of the last generation up the ground delivering the ball into a forward line to Reid who averages a goal a game? God help us. The complaint about the Richmond game was that we beat them in all key stats over the ground and managed 12 shots at goal. By the way Buddy kicked four against Rance that night. Reiwoldt took 16 marks on a forward line that took 17 and kicked three goals one less than Buddy. Fortunately he didn't kick straight. Just for the record George Hewitt subdued Martin and Kennedy thrashed Cotchin with 37 possessions. And we managed only 8 shots on goal apart from Franklin's individual brilliance. Don't blame the players for that defeat. It was in the coaches box.

It's what they did a lot early last season when buddy was mobile and we beat GWS scoring over 100 points for example.



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[SSwans2011]

i just hope we dont waste Mccartin in the NEAFL, kid did his job last year, let him be a part of it from round 1, Reid can earn a spot back in the side

Reid has to earn his spot, yet we gift McCartin, who has far inferior stats, games?

It's probably actually better for his development if he has to earn his games rather than being gifted them for "doing his job" which was less of a contribution than Reid could have provided.

 

[BloodySwan]

If we play two rucks I can foresee Buddy spending far more time outside the F50 delivering quality ball in.

For people who criticise Horse based on games v richmond/gold coast etc not give him credit for beating west coast twice, collingwood, hawthorn etc and having the best record against top 8 teams last year?

As for comparing us last year to Richmond in 2017 in terms of forward structure. Yes Richmond played with one marking target but he was (A) fully fit compared to Buddy and also is naturally an outstanding marking player which Buddy isn't and (B) they also could throw Dusty down there. I am pretty sure if we had Buddy fully fit, and threw in Rance, Martin and Cochin into last year's team they would have been far better.

West Coast won this year with multiple talls playing a relatively slow and deliberate style.

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Agreed, we are too Buddy centric and often seem much more capable when we do not have Buddy. With 2 rucks I can very much see us resting one at FF with Reid CHF and Buddy up the ground.

 

[connolly]

Agreed, we are too Buddy centric and often seem much more capable when we do not have Buddy. With 2 rucks I can very much see us resting one at FF with Reid CHF and Buddy up the ground.

I have heard of counter intuitive but this is counter rational. The bloke has kicked nearly 1,000 goals, won our goalkicking in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and the Coleman four times the last time in 2017 and at the age of 32 you want to play him out of the forward line. Just who is he passing to who is going to kick the 60 goals we will miss with playing up the ground? Reid? a goal a game Heywood? half a goal a game. Why on earth John Coleman wasn't played on the wing by Essendon I don't know. They were so old fashioned in those days.

 

[Caj]

FMD the hate for Reid on here is ridiculous

Anyone who thinks McCartin offers more to the team now is kidding themselves. McCartin will get games again this year, but if we have to rely on him again this year like Longmire chose to last year then its going to be a long year

 

[connolly]

It's what they did a lot early last season when buddy was mobile and we beat GWS scoring over 100 points for example.



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Yep that was the game that Buddy won off his boot in the last quarter with a 70 metre goal and another one a few minutes later after the dumb move of him playing up the ground was finally abandoned by he who must not be criticised. Franklin had kicked 12 goals in the two games before this match so he was really out goal kicking form when the genius move was made.

 

[Dubsforsam1]

Yep that was the game that Buddy won off his boot in the last quarter with a 70 metre goal and another one a few minutes later after the dumb move of him playing up the ground was finally abandoned by he who must not be criticised. Franklin had kicked 12 goals in the two games before this match so he was really out goal kicking form when the genius move was made.

We scored over 100 points in a game where buddy only scored two goals and yet you still complain.

You want us to score more, be less predictable in attack, not just bomb it in to Buddy and then a you just dismiss an option that did exactly what you want. Sinclair 3 goals, Reid 2 goals, Papley 2 goals, Rohan 2 goals, Franklin 2 goals, Parker/Kennedy/Heeney/Florent 1 each.

I suppose you think Clarkson was wrong to move him up the ground to become a less predictable attack also?

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[BloodySwan]

I have heard of counter intuitive but this is counter rational. The bloke has kicked nearly 1,000 goals, won our goalkicking in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and the Coleman four times the last time in 2017 and at the age of 32 you want to play him out of the forward line. Just who is he passing to who is going to kick the 60 goals we will miss with playing up the ground? Reid? a goal a game Heywood? half a goal a game. Why on earth John Coleman wasn't played on the wing by Essendon I don't know. They were so old fashioned in those days.

Spread the love around. Between Buddy and Reid why can't we have them kicking 40 each? Ronke kicked 24 goals last year from 18 games, lets get that to low 30s in a whole season. Menzel averages 2.1 goals a game.

2012 we won the premiership with Jetta our top goalscorer on 45, Goodes second, Reid 3rd. We were the third highest scoring team despite no one kicking big numbers week in week out. That's the model we should be moving back to

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Personally I do not give a brass razoo who kicks our goals as long as we boot buckets of them.

As long as I live I hope not to see another performance like our last final.

We played a crocked Buddy and were clueless across the ground. I hope Horse has watched that game a heap of times.

Our trades both ins and outs suggest a more attacking style will be embraced and selection will be performance based. Our personnel is such that if the game plan is modernised and we select players with run, speed and flair then we could have a terrific year that brings joy to the players and supporters.

The new kick in rule should also help us move from away from a game style that preferenced chippetty chip.

 

[connolly]

We scored over 100 points in a game where buddy only scored two goals and yet you still complain.

You want us to score more, be less predictable in attack, not just bomb it in to Buddy and then a you just dismiss an option that did exactly what you want. Sinclair 3 goals, Reid 2 goals, Papley 2 goals, Rohan 2 goals, Franklin 2 goals, Parker/Kennedy/Heeney/Florent 1 each.

I suppose you think Clarkson was wrong to move him up the ground to become a less predictable attack also?

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Did you see the game? The genius belatedly moved Franklin back into the forward line in the last quarter where he kicked the winning two goals. Why on earth would you move a forward out of the forward line who had kicked 12 goals in the previous two games. The question is rhetorical. So Buddy was moved up the ground to make way for those goal scoring machines in Rohan and Reid. We had 23 shots at goal to their 27. Fortunately we kicked straight and they didn't. Reid didnt get a kick in the first half. He should have been moved up the ground and Buddy brought back to his natural position before half time. Buddy got 22 possessions most of them outside the 50. We were greatly helped by the fact that the GWS defense was looser than Lady Di's knickers. Of course the attack of Rohan, Sinclair and Reid really worked well for us during the year. When Clarkson moved Buddy up the ground? Don't recall that move. But if he did he had a forward line of Roughhead, Rioli, Bruest and Gunston to work with. A bit more class than we had in 2018. Playing Buddy up the ground is as dumb a move as playing Aliir in the forward line. Another genius move.

 

[connolly]

Spread the love around. Between Buddy and Reid why can't we have them kicking 40 each? Ronke kicked 24 goals last year from 18 games, lets get that to low 30s in a whole season. Menzel averages 2.1 goals a game.

2012 we won the premiership with Jetta our top goalscorer on 45, Goodes second, Reid 3rd. We were the third highest scoring team despite no one kicking big numbers week in week out. That's the model we should be moving back to
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You are right Longmire is still coaching the game plan that won us the grand final. We did not have an outstanding big forward and we used a slingshot game plan coming out of a deep defence. We also won the finals series only scoring 11, 13 and 14 goals. Apart from the obvious fact that most teams counter this game plan really well now we recruited the best forward in the last generation after the GF win. After six seasons it might be time for a tweaking do you reckon?

 

[MarkP]

Thats the big question , he would be best 22 at the cats if not for his body


worth the punt here, hope it works

Pure forward.

He plays for us if he is right

 

[caesar88]

FMD the hate for Reid on here is ridiculous

Anyone who thinks McCartin offers more to the team now is kidding themselves. McCartin will get games again this year, but if we have to rely on him again this year like Longmire chose to last year then its going to be a long year

FFS see what I mean. One not rating someone is very different to one hating someone.

 

[Deccas]

I don't think it should matter whether they're a rookie who never plays a senior game, or a 300-game veteran, or anyone in between. But comparing a player to a mannequin I don't think qualifies as pathetic, more just proving a point in a discussion.

But another problem on this board is assuming one is being hyperbolic, antagonistic, ignorant or unintelligent when they are critical of a player, or because they have an opinion that doesn't align with one's own. Do you honestly believe that my judgments on Reid are hyperbolic? I've spent the last ten years not rating him, even when I really, really wanted to. That's ten years of trying to find positives in Reid's game even when I believed there weren't many, rooting for him to overcome injuries and play full seasons, only to be let down by the results when those full seasons did come, feeling sympathetic to the pressures he was under as the great hope of our forward line. Unfortunately my patience has run out. I genuinely don't believe he should be on our list anymore. That's not a rushed, impulsive opinion. It's one that's taken ten years of Reid being a Swan to slowly and gradually form.

What point did you really prove though mate.

Sam Ried isn't the savour, but he takes about an many marks a game as any other tall, and is capable of contributing to a successful afl team. Arguing he isn't is pointless, he has already done that.

Argue whatever you want. That he is replaceable by someone on our list is a fine argument to make. It's stupid, because if you honestly believe that macartin is a better player than Reid then I don't really know where to take the conversation, but fine make that argument. But its insanely boring seeing a bloke log on to post paragraphs upon paragraphs about how a fellers who has literally won an afl grand final is shit at footy, and throw away lines that a dummy would contribute as much.

Sure, Reid isnt one of the best forwards in the competition, sure he may well be supplanted by macartin or Blakeley. But make an argument about his actual attributes vs other players and how they contribute to and produce a game that Sydney wins.

Because I'm not an idiot for thinking that someone who takes half a dozen marks and scores a goal a game playing between the wing, the defensive 50, back up ruck and forward, at the highest level of the sport, probably isn't shit at footy.

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[caesar88]

What point did you really prove though mate.

Sam Ried isn't the savour, but he takes about an many marks a game as any other tall, and is capable of contributing to a successful afl team. Arguing he isn't is pointless, he has already done that.

Argue whatever you want. That he is replaceable by someone on our list is a fine argument to make. It's stupid, because if you honestly believe that macartin is a better player than Reid then I don't really know where to take the conversation, but fine make that argument. But its insanely boring seeing a bloke log on to post paragraphs upon paragraphs about how a fellers who has literally won an afl grand final is shit at footy, and throw away lines that a dummy would contribute as much.

Sure, Reid isnt one of the best forwards in the competition, sure he may well be supplanted by macartin or Blakeley. But make an argument about his actual attributes vs other players and how they contribute to and produce a game that Sydney wins.

Because I'm not an idiot for thinking that someone who takes half a dozen marks and scores a goal a game playing between the wing, the defensive 50, back up ruck and forward, at the highest level of the sport, probably isn't shit at footy.

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What point in those paragraphs did you not see me making arguments about Reid's actual attributes and what he brings to the team. People like you just don't agree with those arguments and would rather go off on counter-tangents about what a Reid-hater I am instead of just saying, you know what, maybe I see the game differently to this guy and that's OK.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Most years, the Bloods have been lucky to have one or two surprise packets. These kids have come into the team and quickly made a mark. Think Allir, Papley, Hewett and Ronke. These guys were not highly touted recruits (like Blakey, Ollie and Haycart) and few of us would have had high expectations. Yet each is now a fixture in most best 22s.

This year I expect there will be one or two bolters who grab their chance.

Of our current crop of listed players to have played less than five games, who do you think will become a fixture in the team by the end of the year?

Off the main list I think COR will establish himself in the best 22 by end of the year. He has the physical attributes and sufficient development to make a great leap forward this year.

My smokey off the rookie list is Durack Tucker, provided his body holds up.

 

[connolly]

What point did you really prove though mate.

Sam Ried isn't the savour, but he takes about an many marks a game as any other tall, and is capable of contributing to a successful afl team. Arguing he isn't is pointless, he has already done that.

Argue whatever you want. That he is replaceable by someone on our list is a fine argument to make. It's stupid, because if you honestly believe that macartin is a better player than Reid then I don't really know where to take the conversation, but fine make that argument. But its insanely boring seeing a bloke log on to post paragraphs upon paragraphs about how a fellers who has literally won an afl grand final is shit at footy, and throw away lines that a dummy would contribute as much.

Sure, Reid isnt one of the best forwards in the competition, sure he may well be supplanted by macartin or Blakeley. But make an argument about his actual attributes vs other players and how they contribute to and produce a game that Sydney wins.

Because I'm not an idiot for thinking that someone who takes half a dozen marks and scores a goal a game playing between the wing, the defensive 50, back up ruck and forward, at the highest level of the sport, probably isn't shit at footy.

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Reid in 2012 averaged 9 possessions a game, 2013 he lifted it to 10, 2014 10, 2015 he soared to 12. By the way he does not average 7 marks a game. Make it closer to 4. He averages 10 possessions a game over his career. He averages two tackles a game when his body is up to it. If that's not the definition of ordinary tell me what is? His position is a key position forward. He doesn't hit the packs hard. Floats in and out. Has no physical presence in the game which a key position forward must have. But the coach loves him apparently. Enough said. McCartin averages a little below Reid in stats but as an 18 year old weighing in at 82 kilo he flew and threw himself into packs. I'll go with the kid.

 

[Punts]

How would we rate him if he played for another club

Jessie White , Tyrone Vicory level?

 

[The King!]

How would we rate him as f he played football r another club

Jessie White , Tyrone Vicory level?

He would be like supporters of the other 17 clubs think of him right now....a spud

 

[Wolftone]

Irrespective of a player's name, be it Reid, Tippett or Naismith or even the coach's name, in our case Longmire, if ANY team doesn't have those pivotal positions covered on the ground then the game plan goes out the window such is the reliance on structures that can only be held together for a large proportion of the game, if those players are there. Of even more importance is if they have an understanding of the game plan & this is where experience counts. Now anyone who has been involved in coaching, even in the old days, would have an understanding of that & especially of the consequences when a relatively inexperienced player needs to play the role required by the team to maintain these structures so that the stars like Buddy can do their thing.

But I guess when you have a belief it's the coach to blame & the coach only, then you need to persist with that thinking to cover for the lack of any understanding of how difficult it is to carry out a game plan week after week when pieces are missing. An 18 year old holding down a CHF position for nearly the entire season just screams of how desperate we must have been to keep those critical structures in place, along with playing players in the midfield who were playing under duress, with the hope that if we were in striking distance at season's end, then when some players came back, such as Reid, Melican, we may have been better equipped to make an impact in the finals.
But for the sake of keeping the peace on here let's just blame Longmire.

I don't care if it was a 12yo holding down CHF the fact us he did pretty well. Our EXPERIENCED Mids on the other hand went missing in action. We were down in several key areas because we have for so long relied on too few in that area. We play an old fashioned game of having 4 main mids and we have not diversified over the years. Other teams have. We were down on contested ball, clearances and hard ball gets. We were also down on contested possession.

So it shows areas we can improve. Like diversifying the mids. This we are doing by now running Mills, Jones, Papley & Dawson more through the mids. This will create diversification. This means that Horse has listened to the criticism he encountered at his end of season interview by the Footy Department. Listened to the players who had reservations about the game plan.

No it's not all Horse's fault. There were mitigating factors. But there needs to be change every year and if you stay the same, as we have between 2016 & 2018, then expect the opposition to start to exploit that. If it wasn't for the pure talent at his disposal the scenario could have been worse. If Horse had St Kilda's List I think the result would have been the same as St Kilda's. But he doesn't. He has a highly talented list.

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