Autopsy Jesse Hogan - Worth 220 Points

[poshman]

Opinions are easy enough to have aren't they? Some very, very, very purple coloured glasses on with that one.

Did a say in every aspect? Financially we are going well. What about on the field? Have you forgot about prior to 2012? How many winning seasons (50% or more of games won) have we had in our history? 9 out of 24. I'll let you go count where we rank in that time period across all teams.

Outside of the two newest teams we are bottom four. Even Carlton who are going through the darkest time in their history has more winning season since we have been around.

Do you believe that we have the respect of the footy world? Do you believe that we are taken seriously?

I think Bell is different and I look forward to his influence. I hope our unending plethora of "A level" trade actually turn out for the better but I strongly disagree with your assessment.

Without serious changes in personnel (mainly off field) and culture there is a much greater chance of us continuing to be average on the field. If you don't see that then good luck to you.

I didn't see this - apologies. Are we talking about the entire history of the club and being pissed at the current admin/leadership for that? If so this is a zero sum game of crazy craziness. I am pissed about some of the decisions early days and even some in more recent years. But to say we are a 'badly run club' is bull shite of the highest order.

If you look at the club since 2012 or this decade when the current (or most of it) team started and assess the club, to say it is badly run as a whole is completely untrue. Let's break it down:

Corporate:

Finances:

Facility:

Marketing:

Membership:

Board:

Key leadership positions:

Onfield:

List management:

Current list:

Coaching dept:

Sports Science:

__________________________________

A badly run club would fail or be average in most of those areas. Do you honestly look at those areas and think we are a badly run club or poor to below average in most of those areas?

Re: Culture - I have written about this before and think the more I hear it used how you are using it the less I think you have an idea of how culture works, is built and is enforced. For example:

Player A comes to club, makes a mistake - journos say it is culture and that the culture is weak as if it wasn't the player should be sacked. This leaves no path to redemption or growth. Sure, it's 'tough' but long term it is also weak. What are the variables when culture is concerned?

Does the playing group have discipline measures in place? (Do you know what they are?)
Do the coaching and recovery team have measures in place?
What of those measures if any are non negotiables? (For example in the company I run almost 1000 employees - gossip is a non negotiable. You do it once and are caught it is a formal warning - second time it is time to go)

Once you know all these things you have to treat each individual accordingly, while also looking for trends and over time assessing your success or lack of it in terms of people, results, improvement and other pre-agreed factors.

If player A is 18 and makes a mistake do we treat that differently to player B who is 26 and in the leadership team?
Did Player A break a non negotiable or was it something smaller but that still broke agreed principles and behaviours.
Is background or personal history taken into account when creating a path to redemption for a player?
Is circumstance taken into account and can we teach/lead through this situation or are we allowing excuses to become the cultural norm?

No one person is perfect - yet it is possible with strong feedback, discipline and focus you can get an imperfect group to achieve high very high standards. Each one of my high level employees or leaders have made mistakes, all have grown and improved over time, the only mistake none have made is around gossip. And I, as CEO have made more than any of them, and have made decisions that have both lost us and made us more money than them. Is our culture weak? I would say it would be far weaker if I applied broad brush strokes to review and didn't use perspective to carry out informed training, discipline, hiring or firing...

 

[Silent Alarm]

Lol Bennell a great trade and Kersten and Matera ‘average’?

Errrrr.

Also premierships aren’t won on membership numbers or your facilities. Fmd.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

No problem - so say those areas rather than the sweeping 'club'.

The rebuild after four years of finals was not the current admin or coaching fault - rather it was that our champion filled spine (Mac - Johno - Pav - Sandi etc etc) were all in the back end of their prime by the time the other aspects of the club got it together.

I would say that the footy dept in bringing in the players I mentioned have had a fairly bloody good run the last three - four years.

I think we have made a couple of big List Management / Footy Dept mistakes this decade:

- not drafting key position players/marking forwards soon enough, combined with focusing on the high profile free agent forwards instead of more gettable targets. We ended up in the ludicrous situation of going deep into finals in 2015 with an aging Pav being supported by Griff as a stand-in tall forward. People talk about 2015 as a failure -- I reckon we over-achieved given how low our tall forward stocks were!

- throwing out the baby with the bathwater in 2016. Our pre-season stuffed the start of the 2016 season and we just seemed to throw our hands up in the air and say "well let's re-build then". A couple of years later Sydney started 0-6 and instead of doubting themselves, they doubled-down on their efforts and ended up making finals. The Hawks didn't make finals that year either, but they give up of themselves to do a rebuild.

- taking too long to make decisions about some players. We have carried a lot of injured players for way too long. We have played out-of-form players for far too long.

 

[raffrox]

I didn't see this - apologies. Are we talking about the entire history of the club and being pissed at the current admin/leadership for that? If so this is a zero sum game of crazy craziness. I am pissed about some of the decisions early days and even some in more recent years. But to say we are a 'badly run club' is bull shite of the highest order.

If you look at the club since 2012 or this decade when the current (or most of it) team started and assess the club, to say it is badly run as a whole is completely untrue. Let's break it down:

Corporate:

Finances:

Facility:

Marketing:

Membership:

Board:

Key leadership positions:

Onfield:

List management:

Current list:

Coaching dept:

Sports Science:

__________________________________

A badly run club would fail or be average in most of those areas. Do you honestly look at those areas and think we are a badly run club or poor to below average in most of those areas?

Re: Culture - I have written about this before and think the more I hear it used how you are using it the less I think you have an idea of how culture works, is built and is enforced. For example:

Player A comes to club, makes a mistake - journos say it is culture and that the culture is weak as if it wasn't the player should be sacked. This leaves no path to redemption or growth. Sure, it's 'tough' but long term it is also weak. What are the variables when culture is concerned?

Does the playing group have discipline measures in place? (Do you know what they are?)
Do the coaching and recovery team have measures in place?
What of those measures if any are non negotiables? (For example in the company I run almost 1000 employees - gossip is a non negotiable. You do it once and are caught it is a formal warning - second time it is time to go)

Once you know all these things you have to treat each individual accordingly, while also looking for trends and over time assessing your success or lack of it in terms of people, results, improvement and other pre-agreed factors.

If player A is 18 and makes a mistake do we treat that differently to player B who is 26 and in the leadership team?
Did Player A break a non negotiable or was it something smaller but that still broke agreed principles and behaviours.
Is background or personal history taken into account when creating a path to redemption for a player?
Is circumstance taken into account and can we teach/lead through this situation or are we allowing excuses to become the cultural norm?

No one person is perfect - yet it is possible with strong feedback, discipline and focus you can get an imperfect group to achieve high very high standards. Each one of my high level employees or leaders have made mistakes, all have grown and improved over time, the only mistake none have made is around gossip. And I, as CEO have made more than any of them, and have made decisions that have both lost us and made us more money than them. Is our culture weak? I would say it would be far weaker if I applied broad brush strokes to review and didn't use perspective to carry out informed training, discipline, hiring or firing...

We just disagree on a lot. An awful lot.

You didn't answer my questions and this isn't the thread for it. I'm done with this discussion.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

Lol Bennell a great trade and Kersten and Matera ‘average’?

Errrrr.

Also premierships aren’t won on membership numbers or your facilities. Fmd.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think something like the Bennell trade was a good trade. The potential reward was worth the risk. The problem isn't the trade, its that we haven't cut our losses and walked away when it became obvious it wasn't working out.

 

[poshman]

I think we have made a couple of big List Management / Footy Dept mistakes this decade:

- not drafting key position players/marking forwards soon enough, combined with focusing on the high profile free agent forwards instead of more gettable targets. We ended up in the ludicrous situation of going deep into finals in 2015 with an aging Pav being supported by Griff as a stand-in tall forward. People talk about 2015 as a failure -- I reckon we over-achieved given how low our tall forward stocks were!

- throwing out the baby with the bathwater in 2016. Our pre-season stuffed the start of the 2016 season and we just seemed to throw our hands up in the air and say "well let's re-build then". A couple of years later Sydney started 0-6 and instead of doubting themselves, they doubled-down on their efforts and ended up making finals. The Hawks didn't make finals that year either, but they give up of themselves to do a rebuild.

- taking too long to make decisions about some players. We have carried a lot of injured players for way too long. We have played out-of-form players for far too long.

Agree with most of that. thanks mate. Especially the last point... bloody hell that has been frustrating!

 

[poshman]

We just disagree on a lot. An awful lot.

You didn't answer my questions and this isn't the thread for it. I'm done with this discussion.

I did answer your quesitons - are you talking about the entire history or what we can hold the current leadership accountable too? When asked serious, specific questions that don't affirm you ranting generalisations you aren't willing to be specific. Yet culture and it's outworking and governance is always specific.

 

[poshman]

Lol Bennell a great trade and Kersten and Matera ‘average’?

Errrrr.

Also premierships aren’t won on membership numbers or your facilities. Fmd.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Any trade should be judged at the time of making, as should in most cases stocks bought or businesses invested in, if you are looking at decision making skills anyway. Read 'Ray Dalio or Warren Buffet' I could provide you many more references if you like. At the time, Bennell was a good trade, a great trade.

As morabito was a very good pick at 4. We cant control his knee... what we saw in his first season was a great pick.

 

[sherrif]

Sherif, I have experienced mental illness & have watched 2 family members learn to accept & live with paranoid schizophrenia. Its ugly, its raw & I wouldnt wish it on anyone. I have the upmost compassion for sufferers, i just believe the likes of franklin & hogan use mental illness as a get of jail card for drug use.
I think there is more arrogance, selfishness & stupidity with this latest episode than anxiety.
Happy to be proven wrong. Time usually reveals all.

He lost his father and overcame cancer. Not sure how anyone can claim he's had a get out of jail card for drug use. Those two things alone mean its absurd to call it arrogance, stupidity and selfish behaviour. Not sure why some have such an unending desire to sink the boot in. Ive seen plenty of good people go down the path of addiction who have dealt with less than what we know Hogan has had to deal with.

 

[Dockers v Channel7West]

Any trade should be judged at the time of making, as should in most cases stocks bought or businesses invested in, if you are looking at decision making skills anyway. Read 'Ray Dalio or Warren Buffet' I could provide you many more references if you like. At the time, Bennell was a good trade, a great trade.

As morabito was a very good pick at 4. We cant control his knee... what we saw in his first season was a great pick.

Sometimes there is just bad luck...
Im sure if it was possible to go down the shop and buy a bottle of hindsight when making choices and balanced informed decisions life would be a lot easier

 

[youmewe]

Sometimes there is just bad luck...
Im sure if it was possible to go down the shop and buy a bottle of hindsight when making choices and balanced informed decisions life would be a lot easier

I didn't know you were a fan of Napa Valley wines.

Do you prefer the reds or the whites?




http://www.hindsightwines.com/

 

[wayToGo_]

Oh goody... Do we all click the "Show ignored content" thinking it might uncover some incredible insight? Yeah nah zero chance of that. Think I'll just leave that there until the whole post disappears like magic.

edit - the magicians done good work, gone already.

 

[mightymouse75]

He lost his father and overcame cancer. Not sure how anyone can claim he's had a get out of jail card for drug use. Those two things alone mean its absurd to call it arrogance, stupidity and selfish behaviour. Not sure why some have such an unending desire to sink the boot in. Ive seen plenty of good people go down the path of addiction who have dealt with less than what we know Hogan has had to deal with.

I have never said he hasnt had a lot to deal with. Its been a crappy couple of years for him. But clinical anxiety ? Give me a break. Have you seen the swagger on the big man ?
Do i enjoy sinking the boot in. Of course i dont. I'm frustrated with the way our footy team is responding to some really shitty years.
The way some of these young men think they can do no wrong. They are very well paid. Idolised by kids. Be accountable. Have gratitude. Grow up or get out.
I want freo to wIn. But not at any expense.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

I 100% know what and haveexperienced both anxiety and depression. Some people will stick up for sportsman who play at their club for almost anything.

Anxiety doesn't make you want to go out to parties and drop pills. That's a clear choice someone makes.

I have little doubt he suffers from anxiety however so do many, many others and not all chose to hit the drink and take drugs. Some work on getting help while others change their life by creating a healthy lifestyle for themselves


Jessie has those options. It's up to him to grow up and get the best out of his life.

 

[dockerfemme]

Our coaches include all assistants?

My above average rating would be that I rate most of the assistants as average or below and Ross very highly. As such the group only scrapes into above average.

The make up of the list and how well the corporate side of the club are doing has part in one case and nothing or very little in the other to do with the coaches. Therefore if I am positive about our finances and about the facility that does not improve a rating of the coaching dept as they have nothing to do with it other than how it is used.

Is this what you meant?

This is an interesting discussion in completely the wrong thread, but I am going to reply here as this is where the discussion is occurring.

Assessment of the coaching group is difficult, however I looked at our group compared to Collingwood’s.

Our main coaches are Ross, Michael Prior, David Hale, Simon Eastaugh and Anthony Rock. Senior development coach is Mark Webb, and the new Opposition Analyst is Leigh Montagna. If we look back over 10 years, the only people in this group who have experience at another AFL club (except as a player) is Eastaugh, with 4 years at the Eagles, and Ross himself.

Compare this to Collingwood, who have Buckley with no coaching experience elsewhere, Brenton Sanderson with senior coaching exp at Adelaide and coaching exp at Geelong in a premiership year, Robert Harvey with exp at Carlton and St Kilda and JLo with exp at the Dockers and Eagles.

As a group I think the resumes of our coaches are underwhelming. They each may be fine as individuals, but there is a distinct lack of breadth of experience.

I will point out that the Eagles coaching group looks ordinary when assessed in this way, however their Opposition Analyst, John someone, is probably the most senior in the business, and was with Hawthorn thru their dominant years.

I dislike where the club is going with appointments. It is very insular with little value placed on experience. Belly and Montagna fit this mold, Bell with no exp in another club for 15 or so years, and that as a player, Montagna exp at another club only as a player, his best exp coming under Ross.

I think at this point assessing Ross as well above average is flattering him. Clarkson, Simpson, Hardwick, Longmire and Chris Scott have to be placed ahead of him. Worsfold and Beveridge are premiership coaches, but Worsfolds record at Essendon is currently looking poor, and Beveridge is currently looking like he lucked in big time, but I am not sure one could place Ross ahead of them. At best I think Ross could be placed in a group of coaches around average or just above, based on his achievements 3+ years ago.

I think stability and looking after one’s own are good traits, but this has to be balanced against new blood and new ideas. I do not believe that education and visits to other similar professional bodies etc makes up for hard won experience. Imho the club needs to take a long, hard look at themselves and bring in some new blood.

 

[blue shark]

This is an interesting discussion in completely the wrong thread, but I am going to reply here as this is where the discussion is occurring.

Assessment of the coaching group is difficult, however I looked at our group compared to Collingwood’s.

Our main coaches are Ross, Michael Prior, David Hale, Simon Eastaugh and Anthony Rock. Senior development coach is Mark Webb, and the new Opposition Analyst is Leigh Montagna. If we look back over 10 years, the only people in this group who have experience at another AFL club (except as a player) is Eastaugh, with 4 years at the Eagles, and Ross himself.

Compare this to Collingwood, who have Buckley with no coaching experience elsewhere, Brenton Sanderson with senior coaching exp at Adelaide and coaching exp at Geelong in a premiership year, Robert Harvey with exp at Carlton and St Kilda and JLo with exp at the Dockers and Eagles.

As a group I think the resumes of our coaches are underwhelming. They each may be fine as individuals, but there is a distinct lack of breadth of experience.

I will point out that the Eagles coaching group looks ordinary when assessed in this way, however their Opposition Analyst, John someone, is probably the most senior in the business, and was with Hawthorn thru their dominant years.

I dislike where the club is going with appointments. It is very insular with little value placed on experience. Belly and Montagna fit this mold, Bell with no exp in another club for 15 or so years, and that as a player, Montagna exp at another club only as a player, his best exp coming under Ross.

I think at this point assessing Ross as well above average is flattering him. Clarkson, Simpson, Hardwick, Longmire and Chris Scott have to be placed ahead of him. Worsfold and Beveridge are premiership coaches, but Worsfolds record at Essendon is currently looking poor, and Beveridge is currently looking like he lucked in big time, but I am not sure one could place Ross ahead of them. At best I think Ross could be placed in a group of coaches around average or just above, based on his achievements 3+ years ago.

I think stability and looking after one’s own are good traits, but this has to be balanced against new blood and new ideas. I do not believe that education and visits to other similar professional bodies etc makes up for hard won experience. Imho the club needs to take a long, hard look at themselves and bring in some new blood.

If our system was any good we would be losing assistants or turning them over, ie Scott, Kirk, it is actually ironic
because Freo poached Ross. This is the club that knifed Harvey, pushed for Scott to get a senior gig yet they couldn't see that Harvey would struggle?
The club puts its eggs in one basket, and has no idea how to build a winning team, just turn over another coach,
and find another fall guy.
If it all goes wrong point the finger at Ross, instead of proper reviews, taking some control or responsibility.

 

[Superkoops]

This is an interesting discussion in completely the wrong thread, but I am going to reply here as this is where the discussion is occurring.

Assessment of the coaching group is difficult, however I looked at our group compared to Collingwood’s.

Our main coaches are Ross, Michael Prior, David Hale, Simon Eastaugh and Anthony Rock. Senior development coach is Mark Webb, and the new Opposition Analyst is Leigh Montagna. If we look back over 10 years, the only people in this group who have experience at another AFL club (except as a player) is Eastaugh, with 4 years at the Eagles, and Ross himself.

Just to add for accuracy, from Freo FC website:

Anthony Rock - Midfield Coach
Joined the club as a development coach at the end of 2015. Played 222 games with North Melbourne and Hawthorn and was a member of the Roos' 1996 premiership side. Coached in the TAC Cup before working as an assistant at Melbourne (2005-06), St Kilda (2007-08) and North Melbourne (2009). Coached premierships with Greenvale (Essendon District FL) and St Bernard's (VAFA) before returning to AFL ranks. Shared midfield duties with Simon Eastaugh in 2017.


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[dockerfemme]

Just to add for accuracy, from Freo FC website:

Anthony Rock - Midfield Coach
Joined the club as a development coach at the end of 2015. Played 222 games with North Melbourne and Hawthorn and was a member of the Roos' 1996 premiership side. Coached in the TAC Cup before working as an assistant at Melbourne (2005-06), St Kilda (2007-08) and North Melbourne (2009). Coached premierships with Greenvale (Essendon District FL) and St Bernard's (VAFA) before returning to AFL ranks. Shared midfield duties with Simon Eastaugh in 2017.


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I did look at the resumes. I considered Rock’s exp at Nth Melb to be outside my 10 year cut off. One could argue it just falls inside, but I think my overall assessment still stands.

 

[Superkoops]

I did look at the resumes. I considered Rock’s exp at Nth Melb to be outside my 10 year cut off. One could argue it just falls inside, but I think my overall assessment still stands.

Not disagreeing with your assessment. I support fully and the assistants coach area is indeed one that I have been calling for improvements over the past couple of years. Prior has been with the club since 2008.

There are too many in that group that just tow the Ross Lyon line. It is likely a combination of a preference from Rosco and other more preferred and experienced options not be available or willing to relocate. WA is quite isolated and there are plentiful of closer to home jobs in VIC, but it would be nice to add at least one experienced coach to the mix. That will hopefully come when we have a new senior coach whenever that may be.

David Hale seems to be developing quite nicely. We lost an experienced Mark Stone not to long along ago and he wasn’t replaced. Peter Sumich and his salty/messy exit was another experienced coach that left not to long ago. For the better I believe but he was experienced.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Dockers v Channel7West]

Not disagreeing with your assessment. I support fully and the assistants coach area is indeed one that I have been calling for improvements over the past couple of years. Prior has been with the club since 2008.

There are too many in that group that just tow the Ross Lyon line. It is likely a combination of a preference from Rosco and other more preferred and experienced options not be available or willing to relocate. WA is quite isolated and there are plentiful of closer to home jobs in VIC, but it would be nice to add at least one experienced coach to the mix. That will hopefully come when we have a new senior coach whenever that may be.

David Hale seems to be developing quite nicely. We lost an experienced Mark Stone not to long along ago and he wasn’t replaced. Peter Sumich and his salty/messy exit was another experienced coach that left not to long ago. For the better I believe but he was experienced.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

We need another Chris Scott type, he made a huge impact on our club as an assistant

 

[DeanS]

We need another Chris Scott type, he made a huge impact on our club as an assistant

We need another Brett Kirk.

 

[theGav56]

Tarrant and Croad became media targets in no time. They have history with our club. We get better information on here, but you need to sift fact from agenda.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Montagna exp at another club only as a player, his best exp coming under Ross.

Our main coaches are Ross, Michael Prior, David Hale, Simon Eastaugh and Anthony Rock. Senior development coach is Mark Webb, and the new Opposition Analyst is Leigh Montagna. If we look back over 10 years, the only people in this group who have experience at another AFL club (except as a player) is Eastaugh, with 4 years at the Eagles, and Ross himself.

Compare this to Collingwood, who have Buckley with no coaching experience elsewhere, Brenton Sanderson with senior coaching exp at Adelaide and coaching exp at Geelong in a premiership year, Robert Harvey with exp at Carlton and St Kilda and JLo with exp at the Dockers and Eagles.

Montagna was an analyst at fox, he is not clueless at the role. Dis-include the numpties and the whole boys club mentality at Fox Footy, I thought he acquitted himself well as an analyst there.

I see the coaching experience differently. Much is made of Clarkson, the man fair enough has several trophies. But he did not square up mano a le mano against 17 other coaches, he had all the ducks lined up of things outside his control, fair enough he then was able to capitalise on it instead of blow it. The list was in it's prime and well balanced, was a group that had worked together for a fair while before the 3peat - but all outside of Clarksons control (he's got coaching to get on with, not going to vfl games and juniors for recruiting), recruiting around the country affected for several years by the expansion clubs but having a team just in it's prime where the the top ups of youth and talent weren't as critical, excellent facilities, injuries in his favour, fixture in his favour (sure we'd lose to them, but they rarely played us away) and a home ground advantage at the big dance. What we do not know is how other coaches would have done if they had the same ducks lined up in a row of those things outside the coaches influence, they could have a 3 peat too - or donuts.

We moan mightily about how awful our culture is and that it must be rotten from the head down because someone was suspended for having a few drinks the night before training - what of the culture at the Hawks where the Captain get's sprung by the cops for driving under the influence, before a final - and the team let's him play? That was a top down decision, but we are the ones with poor culture and we want coaches from that less awful culture Gawd, drink driving and it's the captain, let alone not suspending him, crikey!

Coaching has changed, you need to be accredited and it takes a few years, so they aren't complete numpties. What is going to matter more than who has tutored them, is themselves - not everyone is a good leader, not everyone is a good strategist or competent with tactics, not everyone can fill in the necessary paperwork that accompanies it, not everyone is disciplined and there early to set the example etc. You'd look a damned good midfield coach if you were gifted loads of talent and the players in their prime age range and relatively unscathed by injury, it doesn't ipso facto mean that you are a better midfield coach than the person with a stack of kids and plagued by injuries, the stats do not necessarily show how good a coach you are.

For example. Brayshaw is a long way from consistently getting Neales 30+ disposal output (it took Neale a while too). He had 25 disposals against the Pies in the JLT whereas he averaged 15 disposals last year - is it all down to Brayshaw or is the coaching also helping him bring the best out in himself and letting him know the best positioning, methodologies to out wrangle your opponent - I doubt it is all purely down to more time in the gym over the off season to develop the boys body into a mans, though it would certainly be a big part of it.

I don't think we are in much of a position to know how good each of the assistant coaches are, as we can't see the mentoring, the classroom stuff that they do to get ready for a given opponent, their meetings with players, senior coaches and admin.

 

[Scham]

Clarkson is not only an extremely good head coach but he’s proven as a developer of successful head coaches.

GWS has and have had the best list in the comp for a while now and haven’t been able to get to a grand final let alone win one. Clarkson was involved in the list build at Hawks and took them to 3 flags. He’s the best in the business and trying to water that down or deny it just shows a lack of footy understanding.

 

[Scham]

Michael Voss was a good analyst at Fox before going into coaching. It’s no great measuring stick.