Shattered, onto 2020. Where now?

[sr36]

could you possibly have us as equally talented as team AFL, wc, bris. As far as young stocks go the blose have us comfortably in that department as well.

I think GWS are the best list around by a pretty big margin. Most of WCEs stars are over 30, so I'm not sure why you'd put them in the great young list category. With Brisbane, they look to have a great group, but the whole AFL community thought the same about Melbourne this time last year - one swallow doesn't make a Summer, partially as thought one swallow had a ridiculously good run with injury.

I think we're still positioned to be strong challengers next year, as we've been for the last two.

 

[sr36]

Well then right now we don't have the personnel to execute as you put it, some other teams do. That doesn't overload me with confidence.

I think we were one strong and powerful inside mid away from being Premiers last year and from being in the grannie this year. Though, we still got within a whisker of both with our current personnel.

 

[No SPIN]

If you were on the other side of the fence you'd rate all of those blose players and Waterman better than Maynard, Crisp and Langdon. Those 3 we rate at Collingwood because they play our system well - not because they're better.

I still maintain our ideal game got us to where we are - not personnel, in any universe no one could argue we have a better list than those three teams but one could argue our list is not as good if you look at it from a pure talent perspective.

If you think we'll go better next year then I'd argue you're very optimistic. Hats off to you.

Now that I've compared like for like, and your analysis has been found wanting you pivot and change the goal posts. Sorry - but by your own analysis we stack up very well compared to all the teams you believe are ahead of us.

And as for your new pivot
Sorry - Silvangi, Jones, Plowman and Marchbank are NOT better players than Langdon, Maynard, Crisp. Tell me which list manager would take Silvangi, Jones (given his age) over any of our guys?

And, go to Footywire and compare Maynard to Waterman - which I did, and you'll get perspective.

 

[DaVe86]

I know GWS had its injury issues heading into the finals, but it was overlooked that we also had 2 pretty significant outs in De Goey and Greenwood. Levi would have thrived in those conditions on the weekend, as would have someone like Dayne Beams. No excuse because we should have won, but it just highlights yet another season here injury cost us dearly.

We looked very average going forward for most of the 2nd half of the year, and in the first half we only played patches of brilliance to get us over the line. I think we went in with an overly defensive style this year, which is somewhat surprising since we were such an attacking force last year, and also because we have a smaller forward line which required quicker ball movement.

But I don't think our slow ball movement was all game-plan. I think continuity in player selection has an influence. When you have different players chopping and changing, and others out of form, it becomes hard to play consistent footy. Gelling as a unit is the most underrated thing in football. The best team on paper is very rarely the premier. The premier is usually the side that has momentum and just gels together.

So we need to get that injury management part right. Because we need a full squad to match it with GWS and Richmond. GWS in particular are mighty scary when you factor in Ward, Coniglio, Whitfield and Greene were missing from that side, and they'll get Jacobs as a ruck option next year. Richmond get Rance back as well, Also, don't write off continued improvement from Brisbane...and dare I say it Carlton.

This year was largely ruined by injury. We were well placed heading into the bye, despite some patchy form, but we lost all momentum and continuity following the Stephenson suspension and injuries to De Goey, Adams, Moore, Beams, Langdon and Cox. We were able to patch it back together for finals, but we never hit our full stride at any point this season.

When I look at the list, there are very few guys that I think improved on last year. A lot either stagnated and went backwards. Brayden Sier was a huge disappointment, as were WHE and Mason Cox. These are guys we thought would really kick on. So to go the next step, we also need better internal development. If we get towards the end of 2020 and Sier and Tyler Brown are regulars, that could be a real positive sign.

Finally, De Goey has a huge pre-season ahead of him. He hasn't had a pre-season in the last 3 years through either indiscretion or injury. He could have a 2017 Dustin Martin like year if he gets fit and has a full pre-season. He was yet another this year we expected to explode, but never got a full run at it.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

But we went and got Beams played 5 games as most. Wells half a game. Now we have pick 36 as we gave up 2 first round picks for him clap clap clap.

Better being accurate.

Beams played 9 games at 25 possessions on average so that’s a bit better than he gets credit for.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I know GWS had its injury issues heading into the finals, but it was overlooked that we also had 2 pretty significant outs in De Goey and Greenwood. Levi would have thrived in those conditions on the weekend, as would have someone like Dayne Beams. No excuse because we should have won, but it just highlights yet another season here injury cost us dearly.

We looked very average going forward for most of the 2nd half of the year, and in the first half we only played patches of brilliance to get us over the line. I think we went in with an overly defensive style this year, which is somewhat surprising since we were such an attacking force last year, and also because we have a smaller forward line which required quicker ball movement.

But I don't think our slow ball movement was all game-plan. I think continuity in player selection has an influence. When you have different players chopping and changing, and others out of form, it becomes hard to play consistent footy. Gelling as a unit is the most underrated thing in football. The best team on paper is very rarely the premier. The premier is usually the side that has momentum and just gels together.

So we need to get that injury management part right. Because we need a full squad to match it with GWS and Richmond. GWS in particular are mighty scary when you factor in Ward, Coniglio, Whitfield and Greene were missing from that side, and they'll get Jacobs as a ruck option next year. Richmond get Rance back as well, Also, don't write off continued improvement from Brisbane...and dare I say it Carlton.

This year was largely ruined by injury. We were well placed heading into the bye, despite some patchy form, but we lost all momentum and continuity following the Stephenson suspension and injuries to De Goey, Adams, Moore, Beams, Langdon and Cox. We were able to patch it back together for finals, but we never hit our full stride at any point this season.

When I look at the list, there are very few guys that I think improved on last year. A lot either stagnated and went backwards. Brayden Sier was a huge disappointment, as were WHE and Mason Cox. These are guys we thought would really kick on. So to go the next step, we also need better internal development. If we get towards the end of 2020 and Sier and Tyler Brown are regulars, that could be a real positive sign.

Finally, De Goey has a huge pre-season ahead of him. He hasn't had a pre-season in the last 3 years through either indiscretion or injury. He could have a 2017 Dustin Martin like year if he gets fit and has a full pre-season. He was yet another this year we expected to explode, but never got a full run at it.

Well summed up.

Injury, continuity they have huge impact.

What we need is big pre seasons from our group, especially De Goey.

Sier, Moore, Hoskin-Elliott all will benefit from big full preseasons.

Beams returning healthy.

The better players need the foundation and from there continuity.

A player like Scharenberg finally getting no interruptions will only assist to get him seasoned enough.

Be an interesting pre season.

But just imagine De Goey with a huge mega preseason and him ready to go for it.

 

[Aishole]

If you were on the other side of the fence you'd rate all of those blose players and Waterman better than Maynard, Crisp and Langdon. Those 3 we rate at Collingwood because they play our system well - not because they're better.

I still maintain our ideal game got us to where we are - not personnel, in any universe no one could argue we have a better list than those three teams but one could argue our list is not as good if you look at it from a pure talent perspective.

If you think we'll go better next year then I'd argue you're very optimistic. Hats off to you.

Maynard, Langdon & Crisp are all far superior footballers then the names mentioned.

You’re a fool if you only think they are good due to our system. All are very talented players in their own right, and would start for a majority of the teams in the league and be just as good.

I will never understand your obsession with putting down such players performance down to our system.

 

[jackcass]

Totally disagree. We're far from tactically brilliant. In fact, I think we lost yesterday due to allowing them to play a loose man in defence. It was wet, scrappy and thus always going to be a game of field position, yet for 3 quarters we allowed them to have extra numbers and easily clear the ball every time we kicked it forward.

Pendles probably won't have a better year next year, but he may have a better preliminary final and you'd expect Degoey, Stephenson and Moore to have better years than they had this year - there's significant improvement right there. Personel wise, I think we were one solid inside mid away from winning both last year's grand final and this year's prelim.

We're close and should still be in the running for the next couple of years at least.

Or the fact we also played a loose man in defense kept us in it as long as we were and it was actually their physical advantage and cleanness by hand around the contest that was the difference.

 

[Snoop Dog]

I know GWS had its injury issues heading into the finals, but it was overlooked that we also had 2 pretty significant outs in De Goey and Greenwood. Levi would have thrived in those conditions on the weekend, as would have someone like Dayne Beams. No excuse because we should have won, but it just highlights yet another season here injury cost us dearly.

We looked very average going forward for most of the 2nd half of the year, and in the first half we only played patches of brilliance to get us over the line. I think we went in with an overly defensive style this year, which is somewhat surprising since we were such an attacking force last year, and also because we have a smaller forward line which required quicker ball movement.

But I don't think our slow ball movement was all game-plan. I think continuity in player selection has an influence. When you have different players chopping and changing, and others out of form, it becomes hard to play consistent footy. Gelling as a unit is the most underrated thing in football. The best team on paper is very rarely the premier. The premier is usually the side that has momentum and just gels together.

So we need to get that injury management part right. Because we need a full squad to match it with GWS and Richmond. GWS in particular are mighty scary when you factor in Ward, Coniglio, Whitfield and Greene were missing from that side, and they'll get Jacobs as a ruck option next year. Richmond get Rance back as well, Also, don't write off continued improvement from Brisbane...and dare I say it Carlton.

This year was largely ruined by injury. We were well placed heading into the bye, despite some patchy form, but we lost all momentum and continuity following the Stephenson suspension and injuries to De Goey, Adams, Moore, Beams, Langdon and Cox. We were able to patch it back together for finals, but we never hit our full stride at any point this season.

When I look at the list, there are very few guys that I think improved on last year. A lot either stagnated and went backwards. Brayden Sier was a huge disappointment, as were WHE and Mason Cox. These are guys we thought would really kick on. So to go the next step, we also need better internal development. If we get towards the end of 2020 and Sier and Tyler Brown are regulars, that could be a real positive sign.

Finally, De Goey has a huge pre-season ahead of him. He hasn't had a pre-season in the last 3 years through either indiscretion or injury. He could have a 2017 Dustin Martin like year if he gets fit and has a full pre-season. He was yet another this year we expected to explode, but never got a full run at it.

Agree with all that bud.

For mine I just think our stoppage structure did us in. For all the talk through the week we learned nothing from the previous belting we got. I love Grundy and am not suggesting his fault as the coaches would have to had a structure around it to work but why didnt we just belt the ball our way out of the ruck contests and then have the boys run onto it. Instead the GIANTS compressed the stoppage and then made it really easy for them. Its not his fault as it as a structure issue but that is where the game was lost. And so it was the last time we played them.

 

[Finnishpie]

Totally disagree. We're far from tactically brilliant. In fact, I think we lost yesterday due to allowing them to play a loose man in defence. It was wet, scrappy and thus always going to be a game of field position, yet for 3 quarters we allowed them to have extra numbers and easily clear the ball every time we kicked it forward.

Pendles probably won't have a better year next year, but he may have a better preliminary final and you'd expect Degoey, Stephenson and Moore to have better years than they had this year - there's significant improvement right there. Personel wise, I think we were one solid inside mid away from winning both last year's grand final and this year's prelim.

We're close and should still be in the running for the next couple of years at least.

We lost yesterday because we were smashed in hard ball gets, clearances and centre clearances.

I’m expecting Pendlebury to go back to the wing where he started. He’s starting to decline. De Goey should develop as an on-baller. And he could be a top 5 player in the comp.

 

[jackcass]

If you were on the other side of the fence you'd rate all of those blose players and Waterman better than Maynard, Crisp and Langdon. Those 3 we rate at Collingwood because they play our system well - not because they're better.

I still maintain our ideal game got us to where we are - not personnel, in any universe no one could argue we have a better list than those three teams but one could argue our list is not as good if you look at it from a pure talent perspective.

If you think we'll go better next year then I'd argue you're very optimistic. Hats off to you.

Seriously? You think Silvangi, Jones, Plowman, Marchbank, and Waterman are better than Maynard, Crisp, and Langdon (comparative positional issues aside) and that non-Collingwood supporters would agree that to be the case?

 

[10571z]

We review it.
We learn from it

We look at the list
Who is available
Who can assist us

We get games into our youth (Kelly, Keane, Quaynor, Murphy, Tohill, Wilson)

We get our injured stars fit and healthy (Beams, DeGoey, Langdon, Cox)

We do a great pre-season

We go again

Thus it has always been

Spot on.

Look at the prelim heart break GWS has suffered finally another chance. Look at Richmond last year. Look at West Coast losing in 2015 then snagging one in 2018.

It feels bad as a Pies supporter but this is just the road a team sometimes takes. Let’s hope we bound back.

 

[sr36]

Or the fact we also played a loose man in defense kept us in it as long as we were and it was actually their physical advantage and cleanness by hand around the contest that was the difference.

Fair point, could be right.

I do still think our forward structure was awful for the conditions. It wasn't a day for our forwards to spread, isolate and receive incisive kicks to advantage. It was a day to smash it forward to a contest, but we had no option other than smashing it forward to a 3 on one. They cleared it simply and thus dominated field position. It just felt like they had us spooked by the first quarter smashing they gave us last time and we went in with the plan to play defensive holding pattern footy, with scores from transition and it wasn't a day for counter attack. It was a day for field position and weight of opportunity.

 

[adrian25]

Yes. hindsight is a great thing. It was with the risk. Beams (or Wells) plays against GWS and we win.

Wells plays GF last year and we win.

Worth the risk.

Beams plays next year and hopefully he's fit. We have one more year I'd say, and then we're in trouble.

Thing is Wells didn't play or Beams. Beams is cooked. Too many distractions for him. Want to bet. Were there is smoke there is fire

 

[loki04]

Our window is shut so we won't be replaying last year, you guys however..............

I think we will be around the mark next year but will need to do some changes to go the next step.
You are right in that a few older players will slowly drop off.
What we need is a new wave to come in and release them. Degoey, Seir and Maynard all need big years and midfield time.

We need to find a decent reliable KPF for cheap. Cssboult actually as mentioned in another thread is not a bad short term fix.

Need to draft more xfactor small fwd crumbers.

 

[DaVe86]

Agree with all that bud.

For mine I just think our stoppage structure did us in. For all the talk through the week we learned nothing from the previous belting we got. I love Grundy and am not suggesting his fault as the coaches would have to had a structure around it to work but why didnt we just belt the ball our way out of the ruck contests and then have the boys run onto it. Instead the GIANTS compressed the stoppage and then made it really easy for them. Its not his fault as it as a structure issue but that is where the game was lost. And so it was the last time we played them.

Centre clearances in particular were a massive issue for us all year. Stoppage work in general was a long way down on what it was last year. It meant by the end of the year we had a guy like Rupert Wills in there purely to stop the rot. Wills wasn't necessarily winning clearances, but he was ensuring secondary stoppages and a bit more defensive positioning.

Realistically, we need to be a lot better going forward. I'm looking forward to seeing what Tyler Brown can produce, and Sier is obviously a big one if he can get fit, along with Beams. I'm also keen to give Maynard a crack in there, and if De Goey has a full pre-season (finally), then he'll add a bit.

Definitely got smacked in this area against GWS. But we also lost this area a number of times this season. It was a huge issue. Which is mind-boggling when you have the best ruck.

 

[augie]

On to 2020. I put Beams and Cox in the unlikely category in terms of contribution. Cox may struggle to even get to the level he was at this year, let alone improve, given the seriousness of his eye injury. Beams may never play again, and even if he does I don't think he is the answer to our problems. What I saw in the midfield belting that we got was that we run forward from a 50/50, and when we don't win possession GWS ran forward unimpeded. Beams has never been a two way runner, so is not going to help with this.

How I feel in 2020 will be driven by youngsters getting on the park. Stevenson was pretty poor against GWS, but for me it was down more to match hardness than strength. You could see him struggling to put in a second and third effort. Keeping out of the TAB in 2020 will be vital. Tyler Brown and Nathan Murphy have to come in and have an impact. I am quite bullish about both and think we will be a better team with them in. And I want to see Kelly and Quaynor get a decent run of games.

And while I think he could be close to the best defender we have produced in my lifetime, I wouldn't mind seeing Moore go forward and play as second ruck.

 

[Finnishpie]

So I've had a long hard think about the weekend, and I'm looking forward to the coaches and football department's answers to these questions:

1. Why was our midfield beaten (again) in a final? It was touted as one of the best ever and this year has been pretty regularly beaten, especially in the clearances. What's the solution? For me, the solution is to move DeGoey in to the middle. I have no more trust in Sier. Pendlebury needs to move back to a wing, I think, as he's ageing. Sidebottom perhaps to the half-forward or half-back line. But it's galling to see Grundy dominate the ruck and us lost the clearances and centre clearances again and again. We're too one-paced in there as well. The sameness of our midfield makes them worse than the sum of our parts. Beams return will only highlight that more.
2. How do we get an elite key forward? We only need one, but damn if we don't need one. Cox I'm afraid isn't the answer. He's had some good games but this year has shown he's a role-player. The problem is, we traded away too many good picks and now the cupboard is bare. Do we need to trade someone out to ease the salary cap pressure and get back in to the first round? I think so. Even then, I suspect Darcy Moore will have to go forward and we'll have to hope for Will Kelly to come on. Lyndon Dunn or Ben Reid might be kept on as insurance to fill the second defenders spot. This is not ideal.
3. Given 1. and 2. above, what is the state of our list? Really. No exaggerations. For me, we are top-4 but will be battling to regularly challenge the really good teams (i.e. Richmond, GWS. West Coast (though they're about to fall). Our age profile is fine. But those are serious challenges -- especially the key forward problem.
4. Can Buckey and the coaches become more proactive? When GWS were smashing us, Buckley didn't do much to change the game. I get that he wants to "trust" the playrers he has, but we were being beaten from the start in the clearances. Our small forwards weren't touching the ball. That's when a coach has to earn his money. The problems began even before the game. Again, I get that he wants to trust his players, but Brown, WHE, Thomas -- they've all been out of form. The Brown selection was clearly a mistake (and some of us called it). WHE has too many quiet games -- surely he needed to go on to the wing doing the game? Surely Sidebottom needed to be moved forward? Or something like that. Crisp moved into the middle -- great. But Sidebottom and WHE being quiet is turning into a pattern. I'm a Buckley supporter, but the coaching has to be better.

So -- questions 2020. I'll be interested in seeing the club address them, as they'll have to.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Centre clearances in particular were a massive issue for us all year. Stoppage work in general was a long way down on what it was last year. It meant by the end of the year we had a guy like Rupert Wills in there purely to stop the rot. Wills wasn't necessarily winning clearances, but he was ensuring secondary stoppages and a bit more defensive positioning.

Realistically, we need to be a lot better going forward. I'm looking forward to seeing what Tyler Brown can produce, and Sier is obviously a big one if he can get fit, along with Beams. I'm also keen to give Maynard a crack in there, and if De Goey has a full pre-season (finally), then he'll add a bit.

Definitely got smacked in this area against GWS. But we also lost this area a number of times this season. It was a huge issue. Which is mind-boggling when you have the best ruck.

Yeah agree.

Wills isnt an A grader. Sier was on his way but if we get him back firing great, Beams I dont think we can rely on. He may not play again - who knows. Certainly JDG would be a good option in there but his fitness needs a massive improvement to do that but similar to Martin he may do a summer where he is able to get that base and go next level.

I dont see the Tyler Brown upside to be honest. I am actually not all that hot on Cal as well. He was another who really could have had a standout game on Saturday given the conditions. To be fair I think he has been a bit overhyped for much of the year. With a fully fit squad he isnt in the 22 for mine but I am probably alone on that. Maynard is one I would agree with you on. That happened vs Melbourne last year and he was v good. We have a lot of depth back there as well so wouldnt lose a lot.

It is really vexing. On one hand you could argue that we were robbed in '18 with a bs decision and Saturday were a few points from another GF so not much is wrong just need to stay the course and have a bit more luck with injuries etc. I probably subscribe to that but I would prune the edges (ie make some tough calls on guys in the 15-25 player rankings) so we could relieve the salary cap, regenerate with some youth and fix some problem areas with mature age players.

For example;

Retire - Reid, Wells, Goldsack, Varcoe and possibly Dunn
Delist - Crocker, Murray and possibly Broomhead
Put up for trade and see what you get - Phillips, Wills, Thomas and Aish .....maybe Scharenberg but dont really want to.

 

[domus]

we also had 2 pretty significant outs in De Goey and Greenwood

Wow. I expect supporters of other clubs to have no idea about our injury status but not a Pie fan. I would suggest Langdon, Cox and Beams are all walk up best 22 if fit and healthy. Just because they were injured weeks or months ago doesn't make their absence any less impactful.

 

[adrian25]

Better being accurate.

Beams played 9 games at 25 possessions on average so that’s a bit better than he gets credit for.

Thanks for the correction. Still missed 16 games when needed.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Yeah agree.

Wills isnt an A grader. Sier was on his way but if we get him back firing great, Beams I dont think we can rely on. He may not play again - who knows. Certainly JDG would be a good option in there but his fitness needs a massive improvement to do that but similar to Martin he may do a summer where he is able to get that base and go next level.

I dont see the Tyler Brown upside to be honest. I am actually not all that hot on Cal as well. He was another who really could have had a standout game on Saturday given the conditions. To be fair I think he has been a bit overhyped for much of the year. With a fully fit squad he isnt in the 22 for mine but I am probably alone on that. Maynard is one I would agree with you on. That happened vs Melbourne last year and he was v good. We have a lot of depth back there as well so wouldnt lose a lot.

It is really vexing. On one hand you could argue that we were robbed in '18 with a bs decision and Saturday were a few points from another GF so not much is wrong just need to stay the course and have a bit more luck with injuries etc. I probably subscribe to that but I would prune the edges (ie make some tough calls on guys in the 15-25 player rankings) so we could relieve the salary cap, regenerate with some youth and fix some problem areas with mature age players.

For example;

Retire - Reid, Wells, Goldsack, Varcoe and possibly Dunn
Delist - Crocker, Murray and possibly Broomhead
Put up for trade and see what you get - Phillips, Wills, Thomas and Aish .....maybe Scharenberg but dont really want to.

Very astute post.

I think you’ve nailed so much.

The Brown boys I find intriguing. I can never question their manic training and preparation. Everything you hear they are top notch. So they won’t die wondering. (If Sier had that.....)

But I’m just not sold on Callum. Fades from games a bit too much for my liking.

On Tyler as he is taller I’m very happy to wait and see.

Either could go on with it but they just not there at this point.
I’m a bit harsher on small players if they don’t have extras to their games.

Beams I’m more buoyant about. Get him healthy he’s just too good a talent not to improve us. Until known otherwise I’ll back him in.

Sier should get a mentor and just do the work and then some. Upgrade on Wills. Rupert deserved his run this year but a medium type and can’t see ever more than that. A strong C grade type. Sier could easily be B+ or even above that as his vision is terrific. Up to him
Now.

Scharenberg I think needs a big pre season and then a string of games or else.... might be lost in the shuffle.

I’d seriously look at ways of trading if we can for Lukosius or King from GC but can’t see them entertaining such trades.

On your view point would The now underperforming Peter Wright be worth a swing at? Could we make him a better player for us?

 

[ThePhantom777]

Sier should get a mentor and just do the work and then some. Upgrade on Wills. Rupert deserved his run this year but a medium type and can’t see ever more than that. A strong C grade type. Sier could easily be B+ or even above that as his vision is terrific. Up to him now.

DeGoey spent a pre-season with Pendles learning how to be more professional. Sier should find someone and do the same.

 

[DaVe86]

Wow. I expect supporters of other clubs to have no idea about our injury status but not a Pie fan. I would suggest Langdon, Cox and Beams are all walk up best 22 if fit and healthy. Just because they were injured weeks or months ago doesn't make their absence any less impactful.

I was referring to players purely out from the qualifying final to the prelim. We had 2 outs. GWS had 2 outs in Whitfield and Greene. So not sure where your criticsm is coming from.

GWS also obviously had Ward and Coniglio out, and we have a fair few as well. But i was merely referring to selection, where it got somewhat lost that we also had 2 big outs. I think because we had the week off, that people forgot we also copped injuries. If we played the week prior and had De Goey and Greenwood out, i think the narrative would have been somewhat different.

 

[magpie_marty]

DeGoey spent a pre-season with Pendles learning how to be more professional. Sier should find someone and do the same.

Or Mayne ?
I hope Mayne gets a development role with us.