Opinion Stephen Silvagni

[jd2010]

I'd like to know where SOS ranks with regards to success rate of bringing in established players.

It's an easy criticism to make but I think realistically he wouldn't have a significantly worse record than most list managers across the competition.

And that's without making the necessary concessions for the situation in which we've found ourselves for most of his time at the club. Most other clubs have been in a far better position to bring in established quality than we have.

Certainly there have been mistakes but overall I'd suggest he has done a very good job, all things considered.

It's not even about success rate, he actively doesn't really pursue them if they weren't GWS kids he previously drafted or were heavily into at GWS (e.g. H Goddard). That's not a slight on him because he had a lot of more pressing things to do with our list. But there was even at the time of his appointment the view that he would do the grunt work then move on. He hasn't wanted to move on but the club is bigger than the individual. Now our list is set for kids from attacking the draft lets get the best list manager to add to it through trading & drafting mature bodies, I for one dont think this is SOS forte

 

[jd2010]

The List Manager does not do ALL the thinking about the recruitment of players. There is a list management team with whom he works and who provide lots of intel and ideas. However the buck stops with the List Manager.
SOS is not the Messiah but, it seems, he can behave like “a very naughty boy”, at times

It would be very hard for Mick Agresta to say "hey Steve, we might be able to get 2 late round picks for Ben what are your thoughts?"

Or even bypassing him with a "hey Brad/Cain, we got a reasonable offer for BSOS/JSOS i think we should take it"

 

[Aphrodite]

Don’t stress over the Richmond connection, Liddle will get the best in the business. And we’ve been hearing for years on trade radio that the best in the business is this guy!
View attachment 789487

#ListMangler

 

[bluemahogany]

Well he will cease to be their manager when he is appointed! And it seems unlikely that he is going to have make the hard decision to move them on in the foreseeable future.

I'm not against the appointment, but the irony is humouring

 

[Opine]

I‘m looking forward to the Richmond blokes exit. I’ll wait patiently for that day to come; whenever that might be.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Sad to see SOS go, whatever the reason. One positive, no one will accuse the old man of influence or interference in the treatment his sons receive from here on.

 

[Percy2257]

SOS didn't write that weasel media statement.

The club (and that's probably Liddle, but I won't let the board off the hook) had an opportunity to clear the air and give us the truth - at least their side of it, but bungled it.

I’d be surprised if he wasn’t shown a draft of it and asked for his comments.

 

[Jeremias]

It's not even about success rate, he actively doesn't really pursue them if they weren't GWS kids he previously drafted or were heavily into at GWS (e.g. H Goddard). That's not a slight on him because he had a lot of more pressing things to do with our list. But there was even at the time of his appointment the view that he would do the grunt work then move on. He hasn't wanted to move on but the club is bigger than the individual. Now our list is set for kids from attacking the draft lets get the best list manager to add to it through trading & drafting mature bodies, I for one dont think this is SOS forte

It is simply incorrect to suggest SOS doesn't actively pursue small forwards. Every year he has been at the club, we have brought in options to play that role in the side.

2015 - Wright, Gallucci, Lamb, Sumner, Cuningham
2016 - Polson, Lebois, Gallucci, Pickett
2017 - Lang, Garlett
2018 - Fasolo, Bugg, Owies
2019 - Deluca, Betts, Honey, Phillips, Martin could be argued, and we know the story with Papley.

Most have not worked out - but the numbers are there.

Whether correct or not, it seems small forwards are seen as the 'least important' position, or at least the easiest to fill.

Of course we could have gone harder at small forwards over the journey, but I think the strategy to bring them in last, or at least spend the least amount of currency on them early in the build, is the correct one.

It is no coincidence now that we have done the hard yards, we have started looking more intently at smaller dynamic types for the forward 50.

 

[Gethelred]

The current presidents leadership skills have been left wanting for some time now.

Completely silent in a crisis and under media scrutiny, whether it be poor performance, removal of personal or now this debacle.

President is representative of the members and should be driving a healing agenda.

Where is he in all of this? Gone missing again, when the club needs a leader to take control of the narrative and calm the supporters. Very poor in my opinion.

Juddchella as football director on the board, is reigning over another mess in what is his purvey. Surely he and the president sit as arbitrator when there such disagreements in departments, to ensure there isn’t a full scale public blow up like we are witnessing.

Sticks as President had many faults, but his ability to get out front and centre to defend us, was always evident.

Current President is reluctant at best.

You're glossing over a fair bit with the words 'many faults' there, jpfalvo.

How's 'presided over the worst performance by a club in an era in which there was substantial opportunity had he placed modern practices in drafting, development and player psychology that could've lead to us filling the void in a post Hawthorn era or even contending years earlier, had he not allowed messiahs to run the place and turfed people who failed to perform as one would expect a messiah to perform' as a more accurate summary?

I get that we enjoy playing with the facts on here, but this is ridiculous. We're at this point now? We're comparing MLG's reign - whose record for sorting us the **** out and leading us properly, up to and including changing how we appoint people to ensure that we actually approach and obtain the best candidates or at least someone with a bit of background in what we're seeking from any given positon - with Sticks Kernahan, and the point we're judging the two on is whether they put their faces in the media? Way to manipulate the criteria to suit your argument.

Silvagni's unnecessary departure a bad look for Blues

It is broadly agreed within Carlton that Stephen Silvagni did a fine job in reconstructing the club's playing list over the course of his time as list manager.

www.theage.com.au

Sober, considered, accurate.
It might be a big story, which they obviously love, but they're not just making it up.

Perception is reality in this, if you look like a basket case, you are one.

You like this phrase.

Perception is not reality; in reality, we won't and cannot know what goes on inhouse at Carlton, because we are not there. All we have is perception, which is why it shouldn't be trusted.

Relativism is provably false, logically speaking, and perception is relative.

 

[jd2010]

It is simply incorrect to suggest SOS doesn't actively pursue small forwards. Every year he has been at the club, we have brought in options to play that role in the side.

2015 - Wright, Gallucci, Lamb, Sumner, Cuningham
2016 - Polson, Lebois, Gallucci, Pickett
2017 - Lang, Garlett
2018 - Fasolo, Bugg, Owies
2019 - Deluca, Betts, Honey, Phillips, Martin could be argued, and we know the story with Papley.

Most have not worked out - but the numbers are there.

Whether correct or not, it seems small forwards are seen as the 'least important' position, or at least the easiest to fill.

Of course we could have gone harder at small forwards over the journey, but I think the strategy to bring them in last, or at least spend the least amount of currency on them early in the build, is the correct one.

It is no coincidence now that we have done the hard yards, we have started looking more intently at smaller dynamic types for the forward 50.

Um I didnt mention small forwards once in my post?

 

[Stamos]

It’s a 2 way street mate, and the board and club as a whole have backed Liddle quite clearly. A decision like this isn’t made lightly


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

And we look like a basket case because of it. Some of the board need to go as well. This is not finished.

 

[HARKER]

What AFL clubs would you suggest are the opposite of us in their professionalism? All clubs have their issues in one form or another, the better clubs move on and continue to prosper.
Despite all our 'mess', we're attracting quality on and off the field, memberships are growing at an incredible rate, and the playing group are happy.
What even is a 'modern' club?

I didn't raise that meaningless term in the first place, but just cast it back in the way it was put forward.

Right now Richmond are doing it best and that is no small way attributable to Balme...and that's before they won the '17 Premiership.
Have a look at the plan they put forward several years ago and how they've kept to it, even when the heat got turned up.
We can't handle that heat. We wither and seperate under the pressure. Anyone that cares to explore recent history will see this.

Of course it can be turned around, but I just don't see it under this current regime, as there's already too much bad blood in place.
The problem may be though just how hard does Mathieson want to hit one out of the park? This is how we're still tied to 'the old ways' and a boys club.

 

[Jeremias]

Um I didnt mention small forwards once in my post?

Whoa, correct you are. Complete brain fade on my part, apologies. I guess I'm just used to defending the small forward garbage when it inevitably pops up.

Re: mature talent. I guess it depends on what you define as 'mature' and indeed as 'talent' but again, every year we have brought in mature players.

Some have been hits, some have been misses, some have to be evaluated in the context of their recruitment.

The sheer volume speaks of the magnitude of the rebuild. And there have been plenty we have chased who have either chosen to stay at their original clubs, or gone elsewhere.

 

[jd2010]

Whoa, correct you are. Complete brain fade on my part, apologies. I guess I'm just used to defending the small forward garbage when it inevitably pops up.

Re: mature talent. I guess it depends on what you define as 'mature' and indeed as 'talent' but again, every year we have brought in mature players.

Some have been hits, some have been misses, some have to be evaluated in the context of their recruitment.

The sheer volume speaks of the magnitude of the rebuild. And there have been plenty we have chased who have either chosen to stay at their original clubs, or gone elsewhere.

Most of them have been misses in that space. Its not his strong point but it's also not a big deal for where we were as a rebuilding club

 

[JustaBattler]

I didn't raise that meaningless term in the first place, but just cast it back in the way it was put forward.

Right now Richmond are doing it best and that is no small way attributable to Balme...and that's before they won the '17 Premiership.
Have a look at the plan they put forward several years ago and how they've kept to it, even when the heat got turned up.
We can't handle that heat. We wither and seperate under the pressure. Anyone that cares to explore recent history will see this.

Of course it can be turned around, but I just don't see it under this current regime, as there's already too much bad blood in place.
The problem may be though just how hard does Mathieson want to hit one out of the park? This is how we're still tied to 'the old ways' and a boys club.

I think you might consider re calibrating your expectations somewhat. With victory on field comes validation. When you are a bottom four Club - everything is bad from President down to shoe shiner - it is all bad bad bad...and pointing fingers at nameless demons and puppeteers is a nice salve. Truth is there is no conspiracy there is just ordinary people doing ordinary things - because that is what people are.

 

[jd2010]

In bold are the failures of SOS's reign with the club. One thing you notice is most of them come with later picks, rookie picks, trades & FAs.

We are now coming into a time where these areas will become more of a key area for us.

2015 DRAFT
1. Jacob Weitering

10. Harry McKay

12. Charlie Curnow

23. David Cunningham

53. Jack Silvagni

Rookie draft: Jesse Glass-McCasker, Andrew Gallucci, Matthew Korcheck

TRADE PERIOD

Free agents: Daniel Gorringe, Matthew Wright

IN: Sam Kerridge (Adelaide), Jed Lamb (GWS), Andrew Phillips (GWS), Lachie Plowman (GWS), Liam Sumner (GWS)

OUT: Chris Yarran (Richmond), Tom Bell (Brisbane), Lachie Henderson (Geelong), Troy Menzel (Adelaide)

2016 DRAFT
6. Sam Petrevski-Seton

27. Zac Fisher

47. Harrison Macreadie

59. Cameron Poulson

65. Pat Kerr

Rookie elevation: Ciarran Byrne

Rookie draft: Kym LeBois, Alex Silvagni, Andrew Gallucci, Ciaran Sheehan (category B)

TRADE PERIOD

IN: Billie Smedts (Geelong), Jarrod Pickett (GWS), Caleb Marchbank (GWS), Rhys Palmer (GWS)

OUT: Zach Tuohy (Geelong)

2017 DRAFT
3. Paddy Dow

10. Lochie O’Brien

30. Tom De Koning

70. Angus Schumacher

78. Jarrod Garlett

Pre-season draft: Cam O’Shea

Rookie draft: Matt Shaw, Cillian McDaid (category B)

TRADE PERIOD

Free agents: Aaron Mullett (North Melbourne)

IN: Matthew Lobbe (Port Adelaide), Matthew Kennedy (GWS), Darcy Lang (Geelong)

OUT: Bryce Gibbs (Adelaide)

2018 DRAFT
1. Sam Walsh

19. Liam Stocker

66. Finbar O’Dwyer

70. Ben Silvagni

Rookies: Hugh Goddard, Tom Bugg, Matthew Owies (category B)

Pre-season supplemental selection period: Michael Gibbons, Matthew Cottrell

Mid-season draft: Josh Deluca

TRADE PERIOD

Free agents: Alex Fasolo (Collingwood)

IN: Mitch McGovern (Adelaide), Will Setterfield (GWS), Nic Newman (Sydney)

 

[Jeremias]

Most of them have been misses in that space. Its not his strong point but it's also not a big deal for where we were as a rebuilding club

Without labouring the point, it is entirely subjective.

Someone like Phillips would be seen by many as a miss but for mine it was a clear hit.

Not for what he brought to the club on the field, but for the direct consequence of being able to part ways with Warnock and his massively over-inflated contract, and the flow-on effect of a far more stringent and appropriate pay structure being applied.

Kerridge and many of the 'salary dumps' taken on could be argued on very similar lines, though many outsiders will simply look at the names and criticise accordingly without consideration of the bigger picture.

 

[Broadside]

Have a look at the plan they put forward several years ago and how they've kept to it, even when the heat got turned up.
We can't handle that heat.

I think you're selling Carlton short. The club patiently let the team bottom out and let SOS sell the family silver so that we could rebuild for a brighter future. His hands were not tied he had free reign to trade as he saw fit, and he did so aggressively. Bolton was the only casualty - arguably we didn't lose our nerve we were just hard nosed because he wasn't the right guy for the job.

I think the Board has done well to withstand any perceived pressure over the past 5 years, in spite of diabolical onfield results. Now we should get the fruits of that difficult period.

My disappointment this year isn't about some feud between Liddle and SOS who both seem to be excellent operators, it is the Board itself who let this issue fester. Surely they could have found a way through to keep both at the club?

 

[jd2010]

Without labouring the point, it is entirely subjective.

Someone like Phillips would be seen by many as a miss but for mine it was a clear hit.

Not for what he brought to the club on the field, but for the direct consequence of being able to part ways with Warnock and his massively over-inflated contract, and the flow-on effect of a far more stringent and appropriate pay structure being applied.

Kerridge and many of the 'salary dumps' taken on could be argued on very similar lines, though many outsiders will simply look at the names and criticise accordingly without consideration of the bigger picture.

See above post I actually agree on Phillips. Someone like Kerridge I don't think was a success but failure is a bit harsh

 

[Rosscoe]

For those having a go at SOS give us your top 22 and you will see that for the first time in the past 2 decades we have some depth...I say some because we are not there yet.

Papley becomes crucial next year...so let’s see if we screw that up.

In contrast tell me what liddle has done that impresses you so much.

I am still hopeful because we have Judd, Diesel and Russell at the club and our list seems good.

Teague I am still waiting to see whether the players responded to his coaching style or the departure of bolts.

The sacking of SOS because of the conflict of interest is laughable...it is written in the statement further highlighting that our hierarchy believe that it is not his list management that was the problem.

SOS will always be a legend at the club to the vast majority of baggers so be respectful.

 

[HARKER]

I think you might consider re calibrating your expectations somewhat. With victory on field comes validation. When you are a bottom four Club - everything is bad from President down to shoe shiner - it is all bad bad bad...and pointing fingers at nameless demons and puppeteers is a nice salve. Truth is there is no conspiracy there is just ordinary people doing ordinary things - because that is what people are.

That's a fair point......but.... I just want our people to be 'not so ordinary'

My view now, as it was in business was not to surround oneself with not the best people but the right people.
It's amazing what can be achieved with everyone pulling in the same direction.

I'd just be regurgitating the same old points over and again and maybe I've already exhausted that narrative....but
Our model isn't a good model and it's not a modern model nor a model that can achieve just because it headhunts the supposed 'best' people.

We can debate this all day long and different people will have different views that often characterise themselves. This is what we do.
If a point of view agrees with our won then it must be right....

 

[Moody Blue]

Clarko over-ruled his recruiters with Stuart Dew. Worked out OK. Just sayin' - you win some, and you lose some.

Would I crack the irrits over a difference of opinion on the respective qualities of two extreme fringe players? Would I lose it over an opposition player getting a non-committal tour of the club? Would I reject out of hand the return of a club hero and refuse to see the elder statesman qualities that go beyond his role simply as a player?

I'd pick other battlefields to die on personally.

I'm not happy about this, but I don't see much point in tearing the place apart over an extra year of SOS (PBUH) in the job, much as I'd prefer it. Also, leaving the week after the draft is about as good a timing as we can have. Finally I'm loathe to point the finger at the board for not keeping the harmony. Sometimes people are determined to crack it, and the best you can do is not fight them.

Still, Liddle had best know that eyes are upon him now.

SOS is gone, membership up, so Liddle wins for the time being. Carlton people have long memories, and he would not want to trip up or get himself involved in any scandals, b/c he will get zero leniency.

 

[DangerousD]

Sydney dont seem to have a conflict of interest with the Blakeys. Just saying.

Is John Blakey responsible for the length and $$$$$ terms of his sons contract? Is he responsible for the length and $$$$ of his sons teammates?

Does Blakey have control over list decisions that that make or break his kids career?

Would list management consult an Blakey an assistant coach with the possible thought of delisting or trading his son?

They are so far from being the same thing.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Papley becomes crucial next year...so let’s see if we screw that up.

Off-topic, but we may have moved on from Papley by this time next year.

 

[Gethelred]

In bold are the failures of SOS's reign with the club. One thing you notice is most of them come with later picks, rookie picks, trades & FAs.

We are now coming into a time where these areas will become more of a key area for us.

2015 DRAFT
1. Jacob Weitering

10. Harry McKay

12. Charlie Curnow

23. David Cunningham

53. Jack Silvagni

Rookie draft: Jesse Glass-McCasker, Andrew Gallucci, Matthew Korcheck

TRADE PERIOD

Free agents: Daniel Gorringe, Matthew Wright

IN: Sam Kerridge (Adelaide), Jed Lamb (GWS), Andrew Phillips (GWS), Lachie Plowman (GWS), Liam Sumner (GWS)

OUT: Chris Yarran (Richmond), Tom Bell (Brisbane), Lachie Henderson (Geelong), Troy Menzel (Adelaide)

2016 DRAFT
6. Sam Petrevski-Seton

27. Zac Fisher

47. Harrison Macreadie

59. Cameron Poulson

65. Pat Kerr

Rookie elevation: Ciarran Byrne

Rookie draft: Kym LeBois, Alex Silvagni, Andrew Gallucci, Ciaran Sheehan (category B)

TRADE PERIOD

IN: Billie Smedts (Geelong), Jarrod Pickett (GWS), Caleb Marchbank (GWS), Rhys Palmer (GWS)

OUT: Zach Tuohy (Geelong)

2017 DRAFT
3. Paddy Dow

10. Lochie O’Brien

30. Tom De Koning

70. Angus Schumacher

78. Jarrod Garlett

Pre-season draft: Cam O’Shea

Rookie draft: Matt Shaw, Cillian McDaid (category B)

TRADE PERIOD

Free agents: Aaron Mullett (North Melbourne)

IN: Matthew Lobbe (Port Adelaide), Matthew Kennedy (GWS), Darcy Lang (Geelong)

OUT: Bryce Gibbs (Adelaide)

2018 DRAFT
1. Sam Walsh

19. Liam Stocker

66. Finbar O’Dwyer

70. Ben Silvagni

Rookies: Hugh Goddard, Tom Bugg, Matthew Owies (category B)

Pre-season supplemental selection period: Michael Gibbons, Matthew Cottrell

Mid-season draft: Josh Deluca

TRADE PERIOD

Free agents: Alex Fasolo (Collingwood)

IN: Mitch McGovern (Adelaide), Will Setterfield (GWS), Nic Newman (Sydney)

Think you're being a mite harsh on Kerr, Schumacher, Pickett and Lang (given Schumacher, Pickett and Lang are all on an AFL list currently, and Kerr's issue is that he's not athletically standout enough; his footy nous is good, his leading patterns are good. He'll develop into a good honest consistent player like Kent Kingsley/James Podsiadly, and his best would see him being AFL capable for a season or two).

Apart from that, a fair reading of the situation, IMO.