Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[iBeng]

They are not rules. Reaching out to those that so far are unreached is a challenge, and many missionaries are up for it. They don't use force. There are clearly those who are spiritually hungry, who will receive The Good News for what it is; others are either ambivalent, or negative.
How God deals with those whose lives have been exemplary but for whatever reason have never been subjected to the Good News is unknown, but we like to think He will be mercifully appropriate.
It is those who blatantly( have heard the Good News, and ) reject it that you should be concerned about; they appear to be the ones deceived by Satan.

Based on their work and effect in Africa this is a straight up lie.

 

[iBeng]

You might not have faith, and I think that's a pity, but that doesn't mean people of faith have to stop using the term. Faith is rather central to any discussion about God and religion I would have thought.

Its also not a get out of jail free card.

 

[Gethelred]

It's kinda scary when one is so self-indulged in their own faith that they are willing to overlook their religion's roles in atrocities like inquisitions, colonialism, crusades, etc.

It's even scarier when you know these people are merely repeating rehearsed lines and talking points drummed into them by their religious leaders, and they know nothing other than to keep repeating the same rehearsed lines. It's the definition of brainwashing

Someone objected to the term indoctrination earlier in the thread; at least, the idea that Catholicism indoctrinated children.

It's so successful, the interesting thing is that they're moving away from it. Maybe we're slowly getting through, letting them see the real effects their conditioning can have.

 

[Vdubs]

It's kinda scary when one is so self-indulged in their own faith that they are willing to overlook their religion's roles in atrocities like inquisitions, colonialism, crusades, etc.

It's even scarier when you know these people are merely repeating rehearsed lines and talking points drummed into them by their religious leaders, and they know nothing other than to keep repeating the same rehearsed lines. It's the definition of brainwashing: they are only repeating these lines to win the approval of their religious community (to look cool) and their god, not because they honestly thought through them and cross-examined these beliefs objectively

If we didn't personally believe what we were saying, we wouldn't be here dealing with the likes of you. We are not brainwashed, or brain dead. We have faith and it has affected us personally and we have seen the effects globally.

 

[Capital Magpie]

No, I have acknowledged your point of view: I acknowledged it as non-sensical and stupid

Let's stop with the playing the victim thing for a second, those aren't insults, those are just descriptions (apt ones) of your argument. To insult you would be like calling you a motherf***er, which I didn't do and would never do

I have highlighted why your point of view is contradictory and utterly dumb, as you managed to contradict yourself in the space of one sentence. Just because you don't want to confront the reality that your views are demonstrably inconsistent, doesn't mean people are "insulting" you.

You can't say something is logical while saying it doesn't require logic. It certainly is even crazier when not long ago you said your faith is powered by "the power of reason", you seemingly choose when you want logic to apply or disengage with your faith depending on how it suits you. That's the very definition of an illogical, convenient playdoe standpoint

I'm afraid I'm out of the debate tonight because my footy team will be playing soon.I hope to reengage tomorrow.

 

[Vdubs]

Someone objected to the term indoctrination earlier in the thread; at least, the idea that Catholicism indoctrinated children.

It's so successful, the interesting thing is that they're moving away from it. Maybe we're slowly getting through, letting them see the real effects their conditioning can have.

Many people have moved away from Catholicism and later on become Born Again Christians, even after having been subjected to less than ideal experiences

 

[HARKER]

You might not have faith, and I think that's a pity, but that doesn't mean people of faith have to stop using the term. Faith is rather central to any discussion about God and religion I would have thought.

I just don't wish to pretend I know something when I don't and faith in.....something.....doesn't help me. Knowledge yes, faith not so much
Total Power is in this thread and from history I know he/she puts forward wonderful and interesting ideas around spiritualism which educated me.

Look...each to their own and if we're living in a simulated existence, the joke is on all of us. All the best

 

[Vdubs]

Based on their work and effect in Africa this is a straight up lie.

Massive place, many people, who do you refer to as "their", and what is the lie?

 

[Gethelred]

I'm afraid I'm out of the debate tonight because my footy team will be playing soon.I hope to reengage tomorrow.

Boo!!!

 

[Gethelred]

Many people have moved away from Catholicism and later on become Born Again Christians, even after having been subjected to less than ideal experiences

... and, what does that have to do with the price of fish?

Religion has been an implement of control by governments and power for a long time. Don't shy away from it; this is one of the consequences of faith.

 

[Cooldude]

If we didn't personally believe what we were saying, we wouldn't be here dealing with the likes of you. We are not brainwashed, or brain dead. We have faith and it has affected us personally and we have seen the effects globally.

No brainwashed people ever think they are brainwashed, that's how brainwashing works

As I said before: faith is a synonym for delusion, their definition is the same, they function the same way. Many people have delusions that make them feel better, too: imaginary Canadian girlfriend, imaginary god. Faith is not a virtue in and of itself, what you have faith in determines whether it's virtuous

When what you have faith/delusion in has a track record of atrocities, violence, abuse and oppression, it's kinda hard to argue it is good unless you are completely brainwashed and one-eyed.

I do love "the likes of you" snark though, that famous Christian-love right there. Bigging yourself up as this righteous person then resort to low grade snide, I love it when the mask slips

 

[iBeng]

Massive place, many people, who do you refer to as "their", and what is the lie?

https://www.lagrange.edu/resources/pdf/citations/2011/13_Janney_Humanities.pdf

TL;DR version:

The effects of missionaries on West Africa included a loss of cultural identity, a change in the unity of West Africa, an increase of nationalism, and a spread of Christianity due to trained black missionaries.

TL;DR MORE:

Look! Those people are living wrong! LETS GO CHANGE THAT RIGHT NOW!

 

[Roylion]

So you're asking people to read God's mind. That ain't possible or rational.

It's not. And therefore the claims of divine inspiration for various religious tomes cannot be correct.

'God'(whatever god is) is unknowable. We dont even know if he exists at all, as you have already conceded

As we cannot know him I see no reason to assume or suppose the Old and/or New Testament is or was "God / divinly inspired". The Bible is a man made work of literature subject to the same textual analysis / textual criticism as any other man made work of literature in much the same manner we would apply to other great literary works. These include the Ramayana, the Bhagavata Purana, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Divine Comedy, Quran, the Vedas and the Nibelungenlied or the works attributed to Plato, Shakespeare, Dickens or Tolkien etc., none of which are divinely inspired.

Most of the Old Testament is a mixture of the law, history, literature, myths and prophecy of the Hebrew people, written / compiled over a period of about three hundred years or so.

Essentially the New Testament is Christian doctrine, counsel, instruction, and conflict resolution, through the prism of the lives and/or teachings of Christianity's founders Jesus and Paul in the first century AD. It's written by their followers, a generation or two after they are commonly believed to have existed.

Man-made and certainly not divine in origin or inspiration.

 

[Vdubs]

No brainwashed people ever think they are brainwashed, that's how brainwashing works

As I said before: faith is a synonym for delusion, their definition is the same, they function the same way. Many people have delusions that make them feel better, too: imaginary Canadian girlfriend, imaginary god. Faith is not a virtue in and of itself, what you have faith in determines whether it's virtuous

When what you have faith/delusion in has a track record of atrocities, violence, abuse and oppression, it's kinda hard to argue it is good unless you are completely brainwashed and one-eyed.

I do love "the likes of you" snark though, that famous Christian-love right there. Bigging yourself up as this righteous person then resort to low grade snide, I love it when the mask slips

You personally have specialised in insults, outrageous descriptions of mental, psychological status, and intelligence, and we patiently sit here and lap it up? Yes, the likes of you. You have never divulged where your anger emanates from, or why you object so vehemently to people who have faith, apart from alluding to atrocities, disasters etc. You know where we come from, and why we have personal faith. It is your prerogative to attack, and lay blame at all of Christianity for a minor proportion of what you have described, and regard all followers of Christ as potential perpetrators of these acts, but you know that is not the truth.
The fact that we continue to discuss with you is a form of respect- we get zilch of that from you.

 

[Vdubs]

... and, what does that have to do with the price of fish?

Religion has been an implement of control by governments and power for a long time. Don't shy away from it; this is one of the consequences of faith.

From where I sit it is relevant.

 

[Cooldude]

You personally have specialised in insults, outrageous descriptions of mental, psychological status, and intelligence, and we patiently sit here and lap it up? Yes, the likes of you. You have never divulged where your anger emanates from, or why you object so vehemently to people who have faith, apart from alluding to atrocities, disasters etc. You know where we come from, and why we have personal faith. It is your prerogative to attack, and lay blame at all of Christianity for a minor proportion of what you have described, and regard all followers of Christ as potential perpetrators of these acts, but you know that is not the truth.
The fact that we continue to discuss with you is a form of respect- we get zilch of that from you.

Wow you are exaggerating a great deal, I feel like you are just playing the victim to deflect from the fact that you cannot reasonably refute my counterpoints to your religion. It's a nice convenient way to dismiss the logical dissection of your faith. So rather than playing woe-is-me, it's probably braver for you to front up to the criticism

Also, Christians are suppose to turn the other cheek if they get "persecution", but you can't even take a few internet comments without losing your cool? Not very Christian

I have voiced my points to you why religion is abhorrent, because they do abhorrent things, abuse, exploitation, violence, etc, yet you only played these things off as "shit happens", and tried to paint the covid pandemic as a good thing. So if you wonder why people are angry about a Christian trying to whitewash and downplay disasters, maybe the problem is with you, not me

You are so aggressive and angry all of a sudden, it really isn't very Christian of you, but then again if you are angrier about a guy on the internet saying bad things about your faith than you are about child molesters and people-killing pandemics, then maybe, just maybe, you are the one who deserves zero respect? Not that I expect a zealot to figure that bit out

 

[TigerCraig]

Based on their work and effect in Africa this is a straight up lie.

So, do you believe slaves should obey their masters?

 

[iBeng]

So, do you believe slaves should obey their masters?

Are you suggesting religion is the only way out of a slave/master culture?

 

[TigerCraig]

Are you suggesting religion is the only way out of a slave/master culture?

No, the opposite. Im wondering why the NT supports slavery

 

[iBeng]

No, the opposite. Im wondering why the NT supports slavery

Because its outdated human observation. Its not written by anything divine, its a propaganda book wrapped in parables of how to be good enough to live when you die.

 

[TigerCraig]

Because its outdated human observation. Its not written by anything divine, its a propaganda book wrapped in parables of how to be good enough to live when you die.

Agree 100%

 

[Vdubs]

Wow you are exaggerating a great deal, I feel like you are just playing the victim to deflect from the fact that you cannot reasonably refute my counterpoints to your religion. It's a nice convenient way to dismiss the logical dissection of your faith. So rather than playing woe-is-me, it's probably braver for you to front up to the criticism

Also, Christians are suppose to turn the other cheek if they get "persecution", but you can't even take a few internet comments without losing your cool? Not very Christian

I have voiced my points to you why religion is abhorrent, because they do abhorrent things, abuse, exploitation, violence, etc, yet you only played these things off as "shit happens", and tried to paint the covid pandemic as a good thing. So if you wonder why people are angry about a Christian trying to whitewash and downplay disasters, maybe the problem is with you, not me

You are so aggressive and angry all of a sudden, it really isn't very Christian of you, but then again if you are angrier about a guy on the internet saying bad things about your faith than you are about child molesters and people-killing pandemics, then maybe, just maybe, you are the one who deserves zero respect? Not that I expect a zealot to figure that bit out

Firstly, I recognise my limitations as a Christian, and that's why I daily need his help. I am nowhere near the perfect Christian, but I TRY.
Turning the other cheek face to face is totally acceptable, but the tone of your arguments on BF is unnecessarily aggressive, inaccurate, and puerile. If your aim is to try and dissuade Christians posting in this thread, just say so. I would imagine face to face you would never say the things you have, but here it's allowable?
I am at peace with the things I have said to you, and have always believed that trying to treat people the way you'd like to treated is the way to go, but that does not work with you, ie it is not mutual.
Would love to have some of these discussions in real life, maybe at an Ess Gee game, but unlikely this year.

 

[Evolved1]

I go to the church, if you been in Sweden you know you go to the church for cultural reasons, not because you believe in Jesus. When i got my Swedish passport (family member route), i had to tick a box, (choice of religion). I wasn't given a choice as an atheist. Might be for the people born there but i wasnt.

However, members of Church of sweden don't really believe in christ, as i told you, being christian there is much more of a culture and got nothing to do with religion.

https://www.thelocal.se/20110615/34370

Only 15 percent of members of the Church of Sweden say they believe in Jesus

From discussions with a friend who lived in Sweden for several years, I sensed that Christianity is a dead religion there. I wonder why the church doesn't send missionaries over to enlighten them.

 

[iBeng]

From discussions with a friend who lived in Sweden for several years, I sensed that Christianity is a dead religion there. I wonder why the church doesn't send missionaries over to enlighten them.

Probably a few reasons, maybe the church wasnt profitable when it was more relevant or maybe people there just see them as literal fairytales now, celebrated much like Christmas and Easter is elsewhere.

 

[Cooldude]

I wonder why the church doesn't send missionaries over to enlighten them.

Sweden's too white, missionaries mostly go to black people's countries, then they turn them white

Japan's one of the few places that has magically resisted Christian missionaries for centuries, despite their best efforts