2020 Trade & List Management discussion

[Crowbots are dead]

Also our forward line does not look so pleasant on paper at the moment

Stengle
Fogarty
Murphy
McAdam
Himmelberg
McHenry

+
Newchurch

All of those names have not proven themselves over long periods, a lot of questions in that list of players. For instance can Himmelberg continue on his 2020 season for a full season in 2021? Can Fogarty deliver on the glimpses he has shown in his first 3 years but more consistently? Can Stengle become a A grade small forward? For Murphy can he produce the good footy he had in spades but more consistently? Others like McHenry and McAdam not sure as they havent really played a whole lot and yes McAdam has been promising in his debut season but how about in a full season?

You are looking at our young players and by definition it stands to reason that they haven’t proven themselves over long periods. There is still plenty of talent there

 

[1970crow]

We find reasons though

Hamill was good to go for the last two games but we went with D Mac.

No point risking it... better safe than sorry... let you focus on preseason...

There will always be a reason to play it safe and we always will. And we have again

I know I've asked this before. Lachlan Sholl debuted round 10 whilst Mackay's first game was round 6. Explain how in a rebuilding club a 32yo mediocre clogger gets a game ahead of debuting a player talked up in the preseason that had shown plenty enough in his debut SANFL season. And remember, we can't fall back on our safety blanket, "needed to work on some things in the 2s" as the only 2s games were meaningless, instensityless, 16 a side scratch matches. The same scratch matches that lacked so much vigour that it was ok for Hamill to finish his season playing them but couldn't possibly suit up in AFL level games according to the usual apologists around here. Despite the fact that Reilly actually said that if not for Gibbs retirement game, Hamill would have taken Dmac's suspended spot. So then, when Gibbs didn't play the final round, why did Mackay return from suspension instead of Hamill? Unless we prefer to get more games into Dmac than Hamill.

As you say, we always find a way.

 

[1970crow]

What I don’t understand with the Mackay contract, why now? Surely we would see what shakes loose in free agents? We could pick Mackay up in the PSD draft couldnt we? We’ve effectively locked ourselves out of opportunities.

Also Reid said we would look at godfather offers for pick 1, so that could only mean more picks, so again we have locked ourselves out of an opportunity.

Finally if we don’t use pick 40 because we kept Mackay I’ll vomit

It's a gift for time served with no legitimate thought for the best interests of the football rebuild. According to Advertiser - "which Reid said was a reward for the 32-year-old’s influence on younger teammates and his performances in recent seasons".

This influence on younger teammates excuse is pure bullshit. We've got plenty of senior players around the place plus coaches that the kids can look towards. Had we pushed out a couple of guys like Lynch or Seedsman, you can start to mount an argument of needing the extra senior head. If we need his leadership around the place, then fingers need to be pointed at quite a few others. Reality is that it's about him being a long time servant and we simply don't delist those guys, so once he said publicly he wanted to play on, we were completely wedged.

 

[Eagleboy2011]

I know I've asked this before. Lachlan Sholl debuted round 10 whilst Mackay's first game was round 6. Explain how in a rebuilding club a 32yo mediocre clogger gets a game ahead of debuting a player talked up in the preseason that had shown plenty enough in his debut SANFL season. And remember, we can't fall back on our safety blanket, "needed to work on some things in the 2s" as the only 2s games were meaningless, instensityless, 16 a side scratch matches. The same scratch matches that lacked so much vigour that it was ok for Hamill to finish his season playing them but couldn't possibly suit up in AFL level games according to the usual apologists around here. Despite the fact that Reilly actually said that if not for Gibbs retirement game, Hamill would have taken Dmac's suspended spot. So then, when Gibbs didn't play the final round, why did Mackay return from suspension instead of Hamill? Unless we prefer to get more games into Dmac than Hamill.

As you say, we always find a way.

I am still undecided on Nicks and having DMac sign on for another year adds more doubt. He will be under pressure to win and will always turn to experience. We need to get games into the kids. I want to see Worrell and a few of the others. We should have tried them out last season but reverted to the list cloggers.
Signing DMac gets us nothing.

 

[hey shorty]

Reid quoted as saying that we started rebuilding half way though 2019. Do you recall selection from then? It got older. Nicks will want to win games, we'll be playing our oldest team and they'll carry injuries as usual. Our rebuild philosophy is no different than our challenging philosophy when it comes to selection.

That didn't really answer anything I posted.

Again, he wasn't selected early in the season and the players I mentioned are all ahead of him, n particular Milera.

I have little doubt he'll play, particularly if they go with the condensed fixture again.

 

[Mego Red]

That didn't really answer anything I posted.

Again, he wasn't selected early in the season and the players I mentioned are all ahead of him, n particular Milera.

I have little doubt he'll play, particularly if they go with the condensed fixture again.

1970Crow and I don't agree THAT often - I'm probably more in the glass half full camp, like you.

That being said, I can't agree with keeping Davis, Kelly, Seedsman, Lynch AND Mackay.

It's just too much mediocre depth. We should have cut at least two of those, and I don't really care which two.

We NEED to keep a spot for the PSD and at least one spot for the midseason drafts - when you can get an early option on a 19 year old - plus at least four draft picks and two NGAs.

We've been too conservative.

 

[Miss Vanessa]

I'm desperate to run a marathon at world record time. But its not going to happen, like Gooch or Poholke having a successful AFL career (rumour has it Poholke is looking to play ametuers next year).

Sure Mackay is fringe, but that's a couple of steps up on those guys.

You may well be right that Gooch isn’t up to it and given his injury, signing him up for this year would have been a mistake, but if you’re going to make these calls then be consistent and delist Mackay too. Honestly, give Mackay one more year, or pick up a delisted free agent instead? Likelihood is you get a Crocker, but you may well end up with another Keays. Take a bloody gamble. It’s not like it’s going to cost us this year.

I maintain that this is a crappy list management decision.

 

[1970crow]

That didn't really answer anything I posted.

Again, he wasn't selected early in the season and the players I mentioned are all ahead of him, n particular Milera.

I have little doubt he'll play, particularly if they go with the condensed fixture again.

Perhaps because I was responding to Crow Envy, not you.

 

[Cap]

You may well be right that Gooch isn’t up to it and given his injury, signing him up for this year would have been a mistake, but if you’re going to make these calls then be consistent and delist Mackay too. Honestly, give Mackay one more year, or pick up a delisted free agent instead? Likelihood is you get a Crocker, but you may well end up with another Keays. Take a bloody gamble. It’s not like it’s going to cost us this year.

I maintain that this is a crappy list management decision.

Why is delisting Mackay consistent with delisting the players they did?

They appear two distinct decisions. Perhaps therewill be a DFA better than Mackay, perhaps they won't. We haven't ruled out DFA just because we signed Mackay.

But there doesn't seem to be a magnitude of difference worthy of getting upset about.

 

[hey shorty]

Perhaps because I was responding to Crow Envy, not you.

You quoted me.....

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I know I've asked this before. Lachlan Sholl debuted round 10 whilst Mackay's first game was round 6. Explain how in a rebuilding club a 32yo mediocre clogger gets a game ahead of debuting a player talked up in the preseason that had shown plenty enough in his debut SANFL season. And remember, we can't fall back on our safety blanket, "needed to work on some things in the 2s" as the only 2s games were meaningless, instensityless, 16 a side scratch matches. The same scratch matches that lacked so much vigour that it was ok for Hamill to finish his season playing them but couldn't possibly suit up in AFL level games according to the usual apologists around here. Despite the fact that Reilly actually said that if not for Gibbs retirement game, Hamill would have taken Dmac's suspended spot. So then, when Gibbs didn't play the final round, why did Mackay return from suspension instead of Hamill? Unless we prefer to get more games into Dmac than Hamill.

As you say, we always find a way.

The disaster of this is not just D Mac getting another go or who is at Spot 38 on our list

It is that even after mass football department changes at the end of last season and again at the end of the season our mindset continues unfettered. The people may change but our approach doesn't.

Whoever we have involved they make exactly the same decisions and we'll get exactly the same results.

Is there any point being optimistic (yet) about any facet of the club?

Do we have the courage to genuinely rebuild? Or will we keep as much experience on the field as we can if we lose a few games? And will we double dip from the delisted free agent pile again hoping that lightning strikes twice?

 

[Mutineer]

1970Crow and I don't agree THAT often - I'm probably more in the glass half full camp, like you.

That being said, I can't agree with keeping Davis, Kelly, Seedsman, Lynch AND Mackay.

It's just too much mediocre depth. We should have cut at least two of those, and I don't really care which two.

We NEED to keep a spot for the PSD and at least one spot for the midseason drafts - when you can get an early option on a 19 year old - plus at least four draft picks and two NGAs.

We've been too conservative.

Lynch is not "depth", when he's fit he's clearly well inside our best 22 and until someone pushes him out or if his form falls off he plays.

 

[Scorpus]

The disaster of this is not just D Mac getting another go or who is at Spot 38 on our list

It is that even after mass football department changes at the end of last season and again at the end of the season our mindset continues unfettered. The people may change but our approach doesn't.

Whoever we have involved they make exactly the same decisions and we'll get exactly the same results.

Is there any point being optimistic (yet) about any facet of the club?

Do we have the courage to genuinely rebuild? Or will we keep as much experience on the field as we can if we lose a few games? And will we double dip from the delisted free agent pile again hoping that lightning strikes twice?

It's the same thinking that sees out best midfielder leave for cents on the dollar despite publicly talking tough about getting the best deal for our club.

Twice

 

[Danger Zone]

I thought we actually could have cut deeper with our delistings, but I guess we are trying to stagger our list changes. Next year we *should* see Tex, Mackay and Davis out. Kelly, Lynch and Seedsman as maybes, plus maybe some other guys if they haven't come on as we hoped. And we always have at least one player jump ship. So that is another 4-7 changes again. Guess we need to be patient but I still disagree with the Mackay contract at the very least.

 

[1991firstgamer]

I think Ben Davis

40

Ben Davis

Age

28

Ht

189cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.0

1star

K

3.5

1star

HB

2.5

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.5

3star

MG

169.0

3star

D

5.0

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

1.0

1star

M

2.0

2star

T

2.0

3star

MG

169.0

3star

D

6.0

2star

K

3.5

2star

HB

2.5

3star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.5

4star

MG

169.0

3star

will get the chop too

Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

 

[1970crow]

You quoted me.....

not according to my iPad.

 

[1970crow]

The disaster of this is not just D Mac getting another go or who is at Spot 38 on our list

It is that even after mass football department changes at the end of last season and again at the end of the season our mindset continues unfettered. The people may change but our approach doesn't.

Whoever we have involved they make exactly the same decisions and we'll get exactly the same results.

Is there any point being optimistic (yet) about any facet of the club?

Do we have the courage to genuinely rebuild? Or will we keep as much experience on the field as we can if we lose a few games? And will we double dip from the delisted free agent pile again hoping that lightning strikes twice?

We have a football strategy committee that it’s fair to assume would only employ people with aligned philosophies. Nothing will change until the apex is fixed. They just keep employing more of the same. Our new coaches might be technically better, but their footy philosophies will be the same.

 

[1970crow]

Lynch is not "depth", when he's fit he's clearly well inside our best 22 and until someone pushes him out or if his form falls off he plays.

Lynch isn’t depth, but he’s a player with trade value that will be well gone when we’re contending again. Kristof’s point is correct. We should have moved on 2 seniors that upgraded existing picks. For me it would be Seed and Lynch and I’d have kept Mackay if genuinely required for experience (which is rubbish) and Gooch.

It’s not about our 2021 best 22, it’s about developing a contending 22 on 3-4 years. Having those 2 see out their contracts and beg for another year or be delisted is a waste.

 

[Mego Red]

Lynch is not "depth", when he's fit he's clearly well inside our best 22 and until someone pushes him out or if his form falls off he plays.

Sure. The only reason I included him is he takes another "here because of leadership and being a good team man" spot.

Of those, he's probably the only one with enough value that we could have traded for someone, and whom we should look to phase out because he plays a role others could fill.

Absolutely, let's keep Lynch. But we can't keep all 5.

 

[dplggr47]

I think Ben Davis

40

Ben Davis

Age

28

Ht

189cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.0

1star

K

3.5

1star

HB

2.5

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.5

3star

MG

169.0

3star

D

5.0

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

1.0

1star

M

2.0

2star

T

2.0

3star

MG

169.0

3star

D

6.0

2star

K

3.5

2star

HB

2.5

3star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.5

4star

MG

169.0

3star

will get the chop too

Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

Isn't he contracted for next year though?

 

[Mego Red]

Isn't he contracted for next year though?

We're paying him to not play either way.

Might as well open up the list spot and try someone.

 

[hey shorty]

The disaster of this is not just D Mac getting another go or who is at Spot 38 on our list

It is that even after mass football department changes at the end of last season and again at the end of the season our mindset continues unfettered. The people may change but our approach doesn't.

Whoever we have involved they make exactly the same decisions and we'll get exactly the same results.

Is there any point being optimistic (yet) about any facet of the club?

Do we have the courage to genuinely rebuild? Or will we keep as much experience on the field as we can if we lose a few games? And will we double dip from the delisted free agent pile again hoping that lightning strikes twice?

And the saddest sack of all finally arrives.

 

[Mutineer]

Isn't he contracted for next year though?

Correct.

 

[Mego Red]

Correct.

Not sure it matters.

We made a mistake in extending him. We don't need to make a second mistake in keeping him around.

 

[hey shorty]

Not sure it matters.

We made a mistake in extending him. We don't need to make a second mistake in keeping him around.

Played fine in R1, then never seen again.

Handled very poorly IMO