Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) and the AFL

[Pessimistic]

The problem we have in the AFL now is that the head is not sacrosanct and no matter how many times the AFL say it is you only have to watch games to clearly see it is not.
Head high contact is rife in the sport and what was once penalised above shoulder contact is no longer penalised.
The AFL in its stupid wisdom introduced a ruling where the player with the ball is at fault for head high contact and since that moment head high contact has increased remarkably.
Other than actually ducking your head the player with the ball should be rewarded for above shoulder contact on every occasion.
The AFL now believe and have convinced the footy public that you should be able to pick the ball up off the ground without bending over, they now call this leading with the head, of course the reality is that the player is charged at head on while trying to pick up said ball and of course is contacted above the shoulder. No free kick however.
Player has ball tries to manoeuvre, wriggle his way around incoming traffic and is consistently tackled above the shoulder. AFL deem player with ball is at fault and created the contact. No free kick.
THE HEAD IS NOT SACROSANCT.
If it was the AFL would pay these free kicks and every coach and player would simply have to change how they tackle, go in lower and tackle lower, not touch players who have their head over the ball.
Once they decided the player with the ball is at fault then they have put themselves in a bad position. It is a certainty that one day a player with the ball, making the ball his play is going to be seriously hurt and that the rules offer said player no longer protection the AFL could be in serious trouble.
Just simply return to all contact above shoulder is penalised and watch how the coaches and players change how they tackle.
The AFL have this wrong and I am sick to death of them or anyone telling me the Head is Sacrosanct because it is as far from Sacrosanct as it could possibly be.

How many of these situations, (rewarded or otherwise) occur in kickable distance from goal? I’d say a majority. Clearly the tackl-ee contributes.
Even more so in such a congested game when it appears the best tactic to get a clear shot on goal - we even call it ‘chaos ball’

 

[Smoocher]

Not sure why this can be attributed to AFL. Why include someone who took up boxing after his AFL career.

They should only test AFL players that have not taken up other sports that could have caused head trauma.


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[RICHOLEGEND12]

That is the big question isnt it: what damage was caused during Aussie Rules and what through boxing?

From the age article:


Because CTE is diagnosable only after death, it is difficult to pinpoint one cause or starting point. Tuck did not have a playing history of major concussions. And CTE was not explicitly caused by one or several concussions anyway, Buckland said.

“What researchers found correlated well with CTE was the number of years playing,” he said. “The idea there is the concept of sub-concussive injuries, the blows to the head that don’t lead to an obvious concussion, but still probably are causing some trouble in the brain.

“It’s fine if you get one or two, but if you get 10,000, you’re a risk.”





Tucky was the player who was always beneath the pack, one of the toughest, who always thrived by just putting his head over the ball. If there is one player from his era who I would think copped a lot of hits to his head I would think him. He boxed for what 3 years? To have one the worst cases they've seen after 3 years of boxing, I don't know seems a bit off. But I'm no expert.

When he passed I did think of CTE, but I thought it was something that came later in life, a delayed onset. Pretty sad to have it that bad at age 38.

 

[Belnakor]

In the same article they reckon a guy who only played rugby until 16 also had CTE.
Frankly that sounds kind of ridiculous. Either the diagnosis was wrong or the definition is picking up stuff that isn’t related to head trauma from sports.

 

[FrankGrimes]

In the same article they reckon a guy who only played rugby until 16 also had CTE.
Frankly that sounds kind of ridiculous. Either the diagnosis was wrong or the definition is picking up stuff that isn’t related to head trauma from sports.

Good point be interested to see cases of CTE in people who didn't play a contact sport?
isnt soccer also now becoming worried due to heading the ball? also is the game worse now then say 25-35 years ago, would like to see a study on players from the 70's-80's and compare their mental health issues?

 

[Pessimistic]

Not sure why this can be attributed to AFL. Why include someone who took up boxing after his AFL career.

They should only test AFL players that have not taken up other sports that could have caused head trauma.


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Im thinking it’s a general human/medical thing gather than just afl

 

[Pessimistic]

Oh dear

 

[greatwhiteshark]

How many of these situations, (rewarded or otherwise) occur in kickable distance from goal? I’d say a majority. Clearly the tackl-ee contributes.
Even more so in such a congested game when it appears the best tactic to get a clear shot on goal - we even call it ‘chaos ball’

The player with the ball has always contributed, he has the ball and should be able to do anything he wants. Don’t tackle him above shoulder height or let it end up shoulder height.
Is the head sacrosanct or not? It clearly is not.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

It’s big trouble for many sports, particularly those with a high incidence of head contact.

We can bang on all we like about AFL players and signing waivers etc, but it’s not the point in terms of the sport’s future.

As this research develops and makes findings, it’s going to lead to a pretty obvious response from parents.

“Nope, you’re not playing that. You’ll thank me one day.”

Where do people think adult footballers come from? Junior footy.

Doctors are already saying that a major concern is more minor hits in a highly repetitive fashion. That’s footy. Also other codes of footy other than soccer (except for the header).

Basketball should be fine. Cricket can outlaw the bouncer. Soccer can outlaw headers - both sound like major changes but nonetheless, the game continues.

Footy is a lot harder. The bump will go. Tackling? It’s okay, but how do you manage the players hitting the ground? That’s clearly an issue. What about marking contests? Players come bolting into contests and leap into shoulders / heads etc...

You’d have to think there will be major, major changes to the game. The ramifications for high-contact sports are existential.

 

[Pessimistic]

It’s big trouble for many sports, particularly those with a high incidence of head contact.

We can bang on all we like about AFL players and signing waivers etc, but it’s not the point in terms of the sport’s future.

As this research develops and makes findings, it’s going to lead to a pretty obvious response from parents.

“Nope, you’re not playing that. You’ll thank me one day.”

Where do people think adult footballers come from? Junior footy.

Doctors are already saying that a major concern is more minor hits in a highly repetitive fashion. That’s footy. Also other codes of footy other than soccer (except for the header).

Basketball should be fine. Cricket can outlaw the bouncer. Soccer can outlaw headers - both sound like major changes but nonetheless, the game continues.

Footy is a lot harder. The bump will go. Tackling? It’s okay, but how do you manage the players hitting the ground? That’s clearly an issue. What about marking contests? Players come bolting into contests and leap into shoulders / heads etc...

You’d have to think there will be major, major changes to the game. The ramifications for high-contact sports are existential.

Can footy learn from Gaelic?
We also have a massive uptake in womens footy, (and anyone who’s seen girls and boys play basketball will know girls love to get physical here while the boys just prefer to run and run) so there’s even more reason to mitigate it

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Can footy learn from Gaelic?
We also have a massive uptake in womens footy, (and anyone who’s seen girls and boys play basketball will know girls love to get physical here while the boys just prefer to run and run) so there’s even more reason to mitigate it

With the existing and continuing development from a scientific point of view, I really don’t see much other outcome than major changes to most contact sports.

Not sure what the alternative is... something like basketball is very, very well placed for the future. The “custodians” of footy, which the AFL refer to themselves as, will not be keen to consign the sport to the bin of history, with the only reminder being “Gladiator”-style films. The game will change... very, very significantly.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Brought to us by American litigants

Don't be nuffies, I am noting Dermie and Yeats SHOULD NOT go around attempting to take opponents head off.

I agree w some ACTU workers rights like <safe workplace>

But this both workplace PLUS leisure aspirant sport... folks play the game for leisure.

They get VERY well compensated to play sport. Now they run to Slaters and Maurice Blackburn Cashman and hope to get double

When one takes into account political economy superimposed as lens for PubMed, issue is myriad more complex. I stake my bonafides that Gillian and chair Wesfarmers dude, are not all over it.

Even prof of Epidemiology and Neurology @ Johns Hopkins won't have adequate inputs as far as one is concerned

The difference with the US and Aus is the NFL tried to cover up/ignore evidence of CTE and refused to make any changes to protect the head for a decade or so. That is where the litigation comes in.

This is not the case in the AFL.

I'm fairly certain Junior Seau wasn't looking for a payout when he took his life.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Vast majority of players from 70s, 80s and 90s are absolutely fine. This is because they played before the area of the league trying to protect the head, so they didn't purposely try and lead their head into other players in order to get cheap free kicks. The modern players are stuffed, because they ram their head into opponents to get free kicks because the league now try to protect the head.

I wonder if there is also an element of constant lower level sub-concussive hits (with higher tackles/more congestion) since the mid 90s vs the more eye-catching yet less frequent shirtfront/behind the play hit.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Good point be interested to see cases of CTE in people who didn't play a contact sport?
isnt soccer also now becoming worried due to heading the ball? also is the game worse now then say 25-35 years ago, would like to see a study on players from the 70's-80's and compare their mental health issues?

From my understanding the issue with soccer is largely to do with kids heading the ball when playing as juniors as their brains/skulls are underdeveloped. Probably still an issue as an adult but not to the same extent.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The player with the ball has always contributed, he has the ball and should be able to do anything he wants. Don’t tackle him above shoulder height or let it end up shoulder height.
Is the head sacrosanct or not? It clearly is not.

"Ducking the head" has been a thing ever since I've been watching/playing footy (late 80s)

 

[Spearman]

I wonder if there is also an element of constant lower level sub-concussive hits (with higher tackles/more congestion) since the mid 90s vs the more eye-catching yet less frequent shirtfront/behind the play hit.

In American football there is also this element of constant low level contact to the helmet. Mike Webster the center for the Steelers who took his own life did not run around at high speed and make contact. He was a blocker so on every play, in games and in practice, there was some helmet to helmet and hand to helmet contact; even more so in his day compared to now. The brain gets a shock each time through the transferred energy. A linebacker like Seau got fewer but much larger impacts, and I would think usually only in games.
I played through high school, in a lot of positions from back to line, offense and defense. In the line, I got more knocks than anywhere else. I can remember getting smacked upside the head while blocking on the offensive side, and they could make your bell ring a little.
In the case of Tuck, I can imagine the sparring could easily have exacerbated any existing damage from playing footy. Think getting hit on an already existing bruise.

 

[Barrybran]

Not sure why this can be attributed to AFL. Why include someone who took up boxing after his AFL career.

They should only test AFL players that have not taken up other sports that could have caused head trauma.


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Did Danny Frawley do any boxing? Of current players, I'd actually be surprised if Joel Selwood didn't suffer from CTE at some point.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Did Danny Frawley do any boxing? Of current players, I'd actually be surprised if Joel Selwood didn't suffer from CTE at some point.

We probably pay more attention to Selwood because he’s a big name, but jeez I can’t remember another player who so consistently leads with the head. I shudder to think how many hits he’s had. Thousands.

 

[Roby]

If we are going to get serious about it then provided the player with the ball is not headbutting, or ducking purposely, anyone who makes significant contact to the head should get a RED CARD and be sent off.

 

[Barrybran]

We probably pay more attention to Selwood because he’s a big name, but jeez I can’t remember another player who so consistently leads with the head. I shudder to think how many hits he’s had. Thousands.

Obviously guys like Patty McCartin are at an elevated risk as well but how many times has Selwood come out of a contest with a bloodied head and just kept on trucking for nearly 15 years?

 

[BringBackTorps]

I wonder if there is also an element of constant lower level sub-concussive hits (with higher tackles/more congestion) since the mid 90s vs the more eye-catching yet less frequent shirtfront/behind the play hit.

In the 1980's, the average no. of tackles per game was 40 per game (ie c. 20 per team)- now, with the constant flooding & congestion, it is 140 per game.
Because of the interchange, & 4 on the bench, the players are getting to more contests- & after being rested many times on the bench, players are running more quickly, & hitting harder, cf previous eras. Force= Mass x Acceleration.

I prefer we revert to 2 on the bench only, subs with no interchange. Mid fielders can get their rests in the pockets, as they did for 100 years+.
This will reduce the huge tackle nos. & ugly , scrappy, tackleball- the no. of heavy collissions/bumps/pushes.

He boxed for what 3 years? To have one the worst cases they've seen after 3 years of boxing, I don't know seems a bit off. But I'm no expert.

Shane Tuck boxed, post AFL career, as an amateur- then did 5 pro fights (& was knocked out in a pro fight).
Obviously whilst sparring in training, a boxer gets hit many times in the head.

also is the game worse now then say 25-35 years ago, would like to see a study on players from the 70's-80's and compare their mental health issues?

By my back-of-the-envelope figures, c. 15m have played club & school AF since 1858 (in 2019, there were 1.716m registered players- with many GR females playing since 2017).

Since 1858, there has never been, unlike boxing, a pattern or correlation (ie outside the usually seen nos. in society as a whole, of people with CTE symptoms eg depression, or memory loss) in AF of ex-footballers being "punch-drunk"; or having memory loss, depression, higher suicide rates, anti-social or psychotic behaviour etc.
And prior to recent times, players often resumed playing after concussion far too quickly.

This article states that Shane Tuck, from his first year at Hawthorn, & also when he went to Richmond from his first year, was widely known inside these 2 Clubs to have mental health problems (from the article "...a lifelong fight with depression").

The article also states that his younger brother, Travis Tuck, was, sadly, found overdosed & unconscious on illegal drugs in 2010; & Travis also suffered from depression, at least from the age of 22 y.o.
He had 2 previous findings of drug use- this was the 3rd, so T. Tuck was suspended from the AFL.

AFL great Michael Tuck breaks down as he farewells footy star son

AFL star Shane Tuck's wife Katherine, commonly known as Kat, was visibly distraught and shaken at her late husband's Pakenham ceremony, in Melbourne's southeast, on Tuesday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Illegal drug taking has become far more prevalent in society since c. 1970- & this is often linked (also with heavy alcohol abuse) with neurological disorders.

I assume the Independent Review of the AFL will have the issue of head knocks, neurological issues etc. as a priority area for examination.
The AFL consults with independent neurologists, who constantly reviewing the science (as does the AFLPA, who have their own team of neurologists).

 

[Kappa]

It’s big trouble for many sports, particularly those with a high incidence of head contact.

We can bang on all we like about AFL players and signing waivers etc, but it’s not the point in terms of the sport’s future.

As this research develops and makes findings, it’s going to lead to a pretty obvious response from parents.

“Nope, you’re not playing that. You’ll thank me one day.”

Where do people think adult footballers come from? Junior footy.

Doctors are already saying that a major concern is more minor hits in a highly repetitive fashion. That’s footy. Also other codes of footy other than soccer (except for the header).

Basketball should be fine. Cricket can outlaw the bouncer. Soccer can outlaw headers - both sound like major changes but nonetheless, the game continues.

Footy is a lot harder. The bump will go. Tackling? It’s okay, but how do you manage the players hitting the ground? That’s clearly an issue. What about marking contests? Players come bolting into contests and leap into shoulders / heads etc...

You’d have to think there will be major, major changes to the game. The ramifications for high-contact sports are existential.

If you think soccer can just remove headers you're crazy, will literally completely change the game and ruin it. So when the ball is centered into the box all the players just have to stand there and wait for it to land? Not a chance in hell of happening. Similar with cricket, banning short pitch bowling would see the death of the game, test cricket would be ruined

 

[blackcat]

The difference with the US and Aus is the NFL tried to cover up/ignore evidence of CTE and refused to make any changes to protect the head for a decade or so. That is where the litigation comes in.

This is not the case in the AFL.

I'm fairly certain Junior Seau wasn't looking for a payout when he took his life.

what is general population data for suicide, lots of cats(usually men are killing themself, look at female(girl) cluster of 16yo(Geelong high circa 2009) topping themselves, fallacy is extrapolating anecdote for population, Samuels/Williams/Fitzpatrick don't want rent-seekers claim from the PA, but lots of ambulance chasers still came out of the woodwork

 

[Demonic Ascent]

what is general population data for suicide, lots of cats(usually men are killing themself, look at female(girl) cluster of 16yo(Geelong high circa 2009) topping themselves, fallacy is extrapolating anecdote for population, Samuels/Williams/Fitzpatrick don't want rent-seekers claim from the PA, but lots of ambulance chasers still came out of the woodwork

That's great and all but look at the evidence of those who have donated their brains for research post death, mainly NFL players and WWF wrestlers. Their brains are scrambled with some 40-somethings said to have the brains similar to those of an octogenarian with dementia. Probably an element of drug use in their as well but repeated head traumas over the course of decades would be a leading contributing factor.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

If you think soccer can just remove headers you're crazy, will literally completely change the game and ruin it. So when the ball is centered into the box all the players just have to stand there and wait for it to land? Not a chance in hell of happening. Similar with cricket, banning short pitch bowling would see the death of the game, test cricket would be ruined

Yes, biggest sport in the world, I’m sure they’ll just pack it up and be done with it.