If We Got Cameron, How Come.....

[cats_09]

We a club, have shown that we're happy to debut youngsters when their ready, which at times happens to be before we as fans think they're ready - Holmes debut in his first season may have come before many here thought he'd debut

So with Kreuger, the fact he hasn't debuted yet when we've be willing to try others in the time since he's been drafted maybe gives a better indication about where he sits in the views of the MC, what they believe he can (or can't) offer to the team, and they don't see a spot for himrather than being overlooked for the sake of it

 

[Partridge]

Who? Be specific.

Would take too long, and I don't trust that I'd still be here afterwards.

If you don't think there's a massive line between those critical on occasion of the club and Scott, and those who don't, you've missed about 7 years.

 

[cats_09]

Despite an ordinary game in awful conditions last week end I think the time is absolutely right for Kreuger to replace Zuthrie . Kreuger could then play back if Henry plays forward or my preferred Kreuger plays forward and Henry goes back.

Failing that Esava replaces Zuthrie and Henry goes back.

We need two talls as options as we bring the ball forward (for a change). If the opposition go double on Hawkins then Kreuger or Esava should be able to cause some trouble. Esava in the air, Kreuger occasionally in the air but also on the ground.

Surely Ratugolea is a good 3 or 4 weeks minimum from playing - returning from a fractured leg, and with only half a VFL game under his belt, he shouldn't be in contention at this stage

 

[RegHickeyStand]

We a club, have shown that we're happy to debut youngsters when their ready, which at times happens to be before we as fans think they're ready - Holmes debut in his first season may have come before many here thought he'd debut

So with Kreuger, the fact he hasn't debuted yet when we've be willing to try others in the time since he's been drafted maybe gives a better indication about where he sits in the views of the MC, what they believe he can (or can't) offer to the team, and they don't see a spot for himrather than being overlooked for the sake of it

I've seen it where they give a youngster a game early, and send him back to the 2nds telling him, "Now you know what you need to do." Not a bad idea.

 

[cats_09]

I've seen it where they give a youngster a game early, and send him back to the 2nds telling him, "Now you know what you need to do." Not a bad idea.

And that they haven't done that with a Krueger may be telling

Plus injuries may have held him back to extent

There were times he looked promising in the VFL in his first year, but they coincided with him then battling injuries whether concussion or knee issues

He needs to string together a run of games & good form to earn selection

 

[CatToTheFuture]

And that they haven't done that with a Krueger may be telling

Plus injuries may have held him back to extent

There were times he looked promising in the VFL in his first year, but they coincided with him then battling injuries whether concussion or knee issues

He needs to string together a run of games & good form to earn selection

Probably not straight forward for a KPF type. You need to develop a bag of tricks rather than nail a specific aspect of your game.

 

[catempire]

Anyone have any sense of how many VFL games Krueger has been named in the best players. I’m guessing it could be counted on one hand.

 

[cats_09]

Anyone have any sense of how many VFL games Krueger has been named in the best players. I’m guessing it could be counted on one hand.

1

The game he kicked 6 goals against Coburg, and even then it was only 2nd in the bests - for context, Coburg finished 2nd last on the ladder that year with 2 wins for the season

It also looks like he was asked to back up his efforts in the VFL the next week but had an early finish to the match with just 4 disposals and not playing for 4 weeks

 

[catempire]

1

The game he kicked 6 goals against Coburg, and even then it was only 2nd in the bests - for context, Coburg finished 2nd last on the ladder that year with 2 wins for the season

It also looks like he was asked to back up his efforts in the VFL the next week but had an early finish to the match with just 4 disposals and not playing for 4 weeks

View attachment 1103225

Thanks. Not exactly bashing the door down.

 

[Vdubs]

Even Buckley got the Pies to a GF. And his side looked the more likely.

We were shown to be miles away last year. Richmond showed us what a premiership team really looks like. Like we used to have ourselves a few years back. We got too many plodders happy to be their role. It showed me we are on the wrong track to win a GF. You need among other things flair, dare, and skills, to take the flag. We got not much of any of that.

We don't have the stock. Plain and simple. We played awesome footy last year in H & A, and it was suggested that our best was THE BEST last year. However, not good enough to beat Tigers, like in 89, we fell short against Hawks. We do not have those players that have elite skills and dare etc. /Danger, supposedly our best, is a prime culprit of lacking finesse when the heat is on. Same with Duncan. Losing Parfitt with a hand injury, and GAJ, virtually sealed our fate.
And there is no answer for Dusty. Taylor and GAJ are not easily replaced.
Last year was our last chance, imho.
We are not up there this year- longer games, longer season, older stars, and we are not a scary proposition.
The main factor we have going for us is the know-how of our coach and his panel. Our flaky players may all be able to click on a certain day, but what we have seen is they can NOT do this in pressure games over 4 consecutive weeks.
Our best player now easily is Guthrie, and he is a beauty, but will need help.
Stanley seems to have dropped off again, a bit, and Cameron, Sav, and Simpson are yet to play. They are exciting players, as is Clarke.
If we make top 8, it will be a great effort- very even season, and we are below 100% on the ladder which is rare for us, and not easy to make up that %.

 

[cats_09]

Thanks. Not exactly bashing the door down.

I feel like Kreuger is one of those players who's form has gotten better the longer he doesn't make his debut

 

[catswhiskers]

Surely Ratugolea is a good 3 or 4 weeks minimum from playing - returning from a fractured leg, and with only half a VFL game under his belt, he shouldn't be in contention at this stage

He looked further advanced than that. If he was on restricted duties watch out when he is going full throttle.

 

[catswhiskers]

Thanks. Not exactly bashing the door down.

I am starting to feel a bit (or is that a lot) of Kreuger doubt here. If Cameron was up and about and in form I would understand why Kreuger does not get his chance now. But Cameron is missing, Henry hasn't straightened up our forward entries, so we go via the cape for another week?

What do we lose? Two prime agers Hamling and Gardiner both were denied their chance and now ply there trade at other clubs. Even Wiley had his look.

 

[Seeds]

We don't exactly have many KPD waiting in the wings though

With Krueger at 196cm, he kinda fills a gap in our list along our only other young potential KPD in SDK

So while we do have a few defenders on our list, we don't necessarily have an abundance of KPD

Henderson has been really good since being added to the rookie list, but he turns 32 in December, and Blicavs turned 30 last month but may end up being used in the ruck more than defence depending on how our rucks go

Um our key foward options are worse.

henry, kolo and Stewart together are all capable of helping out against the big forwards. We only Have sav under 28 in the fowards and unlike the other 3 he hasn’t established his spot in the side.

 

[cats_09]

Um our key foward options are worse.

henry, kolo and Stewart together are all capable of helping out against the big forwards. We only Have sav under 28 in the fowards and unlike the other 3 he hasn’t established his spot in the side.

I'd say our KPD stocks are worse - of those over 195cm & not in the seniors we're playing Kreuger & Neale (an 18yr old ruck/forward) in defence in the VFL, while SDK could potentially turn into a defender though he's been used on the wing so far this year

Kolodjashnij is 193cm & doesn't have a great record against the bigger bodied forwards, Henry at 191cm rarely plays on the bigger bodied forwards (not sure if I've really seen it) and Stewart at 190cm is more of the general down back rather than someone they want to isolate on the bigger bodied forwards

So having an option in the VFL who can step up to the seniors should they be required is actually a good thing

And we do have other young guys up forward like Jarvis who kicked 4 goals in the VFL the other week but needs to find consistency in his game

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Um our key foward options are worse.

henry, kolo and Stewart together are all capable of helping out against the big forwards. We only Have sav under 28 in the fowards and unlike the other 3 he hasn’t established his spot in the side.

intercept defender, can't defend tall, needs to play off his opponent or we get no rebound.

Not a single one of those names should be lining up against a kpd

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Um our key foward options are worse.

henry, kolo and Stewart together are all capable of helping out against the big forwards. We only Have sav under 28 in the fowards and unlike the other 3 he hasn’t established his spot in the side.

The other thing I would add here is that you can play around with a deficiency in your forward line. We have done this for years. Say you have one kpd? Show your entries up, crowd the d50 to negate their kpds a bit, bring it ground and try use your ground level outnumber to hit the scoreboard. Not ideal but you can work around it.

On the other hand, if you're a kpd short you can't ask the opposition nicely to slow down their ball movement so you can put defenders in the way. If you're going to choose to be a tall short then you'd lose the kpf any day.

 

[Down at K Park]

I'd say our KPD stocks are worse - of those over 195cm & not in the seniors we're playing Kreuger & Neale (an 18yr old ruck/forward) in defence in the VFL, while SDK could potentially turn into a defender though he's been used on the wing so far this year

Kolodjashnij is 193cm & doesn't have a great record against the bigger bodied forwards, Henry at 191cm rarely plays on the bigger bodied forwards (not sure if I've really seen it) and Stewart at 190cm is more of the general down back rather than someone they want to isolate on the bigger bodied forwards

So having an option in the VFL who can step up to the seniors should they be required is actually a good thing

And we do have other young guys up forward like Jarvis who kicked 4 goals in the VFL the other week but needs to find consistency in his game

It is truly bizarre the way we draft players in one position, and continually try to shoehorn them into positions we have gaps in. Fair enough if they do it as a learning tool for a few games, but we spend whole years doing it. If they need someone to play a certain position, then why not just draft someone to do it?

No idea what they will do with SDK. Drafted as a KPD, they have played him forward, in the ruck, and now on the wing. Like WTF. Just pick a position for him to learn instead of confusing the hell out of him trying to learn every position on the ground.

 

[cats_09]

The other thing I would add here is that you can play around with a deficiency in your forward line. We have done this for years. Say you have one kpd? Show your entries up, crowd the d50 to negate their kpds a bit, bring it ground and try use your ground level outnumber to hit the scoreboard. Not ideal but you can work around it.

On the other hand, if you're a kpd short you can't ask the opposition nicely to slow down their ball movement so you can put defenders in the way. If you're going to choose to be a tall short then you'd lose the kpf any day.

The other option up forward is that you can kinda get away with using a ruck as a tall target, but you don't necessarily want to use a ruck in defence as an actually key defender - a ruck dropping back into a hole is one thing, but asking them to pick up a key target isn't something you generally see done

 

[cats_09]

It is truly bizarre the way we draft players in one position, and continually try to shoehorn them into positions we have gaps in. Fair enough if they do it as a learning tool for a few games, but we spend whole years doing it. If they need someone to play a certain position, then why not just draft someone to do it?

No idea what they will do with SDK. Drafted as a KPD, they have played him forward, in the ruck, and now on the wing. Like WTF. Just pick a position for him to learn instead of confusing the hell out of him trying to learn every position on the ground.

I kinda get it with Neale in that they are wanting to help develop a rounded game, gain experience and hence giving him some time down back which isn't the worse option at 18 especially if he's not really considered a genuine chance to debut this year so 2021 is all about development. But I would like to see him thrown forward for an extended run also; he kicked a goal against the Pies in the practice match, and seems to have something of a background as a forward - plus a few reports from our VFL matches suggest he's looking a little lost down back

SDK is kinda giving Blicavs vibes in terms of what they see and how he's going - this is what they said of him after last weeks VFL

There’s plenty to look forward to with his Mark Blicavs-like ability to defend, do the ruck-work and take big contested marks.

He even got on the end of a crucial snag halfway through the fourth quarter, which was the first goal anyone had kicked against the wind for the game.

Head coach Shane O’Bree saw that “He’s showing us his attributes to win the ball at ground level.”

“He’s a guy that’s played nearly every position on the ground for us now so we’re just developing him in multiple areas.”

“Because he’s a big fella and he’s so good around the contest we’re not scared to put him around it.”

Hoping the coaches haven't looked at Nic Cox (Essendon) who at 199/200cm plays as a tall midfielder & decided we need to see if we can get the same. SDK is now in his second season so I'd like to see them starting to lock him into a position and really develop a certain role for him - if we're honest, we don't really need a 200cm wing as we are now finding ourselves going ok for options on the wing with Smith, Duncan, Menegola, Clark and even Holmes was given a run out there

Going forward we also seem to have other options for the ruck such as Neale, Fort (signed until end of 2022), Ratugolea could potentially find himself there and there's also Tsapatolis learning the craft. SDK was drafted as a KPD, and with Henderson (31) & Blicavs (30) closer to the end of their careers than the beginning, I'd rather see him focus his development on where he's going to be most comfortable & best suited to team

 

[RegHickeyStand]

We don't have the stock. Plain and simple. We played awesome footy last year in H & A, and it was suggested that our best was THE BEST last year. However, not good enough to beat Tigers, like in 89, we fell short against Hawks. We do not have those players that have elite skills and dare etc. /Danger, supposedly our best, is a prime culprit of lacking finesse when the heat is on. Same with Duncan. Losing Parfitt with a hand injury, and GAJ, virtually sealed our fate.
And there is no answer for Dusty. Taylor and GAJ are not easily replaced.
Last year was our last chance, imho.
We are not up there this year- longer games, longer season, older stars, and we are not a scary proposition.
The main factor we have going for us is the know-how of our coach and his panel. Our flaky players may all be able to click on a certain day, but what we have seen is they can NOT do this in pressure games over 4 consecutive weeks.
Our best player now easily is Guthrie, and he is a beauty, but will need help.
Stanley seems to have dropped off again, a bit, and Cameron, Sav, and Simpson are yet to play. They are exciting players, as is Clarke.
If we make top 8, it will be a great effort- very even season, and we are below 100% on the ladder which is rare for us, and not easy to make up that %.

Hawkins took years to get to where he is. I wonder if we had put him in the reserves all that time he would have been as good at 25? Won us GF, so the sacrifice was worth it. Still, you have to play safe and go with Rohan, I suppose.

 

[Seeds]

I'd say our KPD stocks are worse - of those over 195cm & not in the seniors we're playing Kreuger & Neale (an 18yr old ruck/forward) in defence in the VFL, while SDK could potentially turn into a defender though he's been used on the wing so far this year

Kolodjashnij is 193cm & doesn't have a great record against the bigger bodied forwards, Henry at 191cm rarely plays on the bigger bodied forwards (not sure if I've really seen it) and Stewart at 190cm is more of the general down back rather than someone they want to isolate on the bigger bodied forwards

So having an option in the VFL who can step up to the seniors should they be required is actually a good thing

And we do have other young guys up forward like Jarvis who kicked 4 goals in the VFL the other week but needs to find consistency in his game

Why do they need to be over 195cm? Scarlett wasn’t that tall. And isnt dekonning a big key back that can hopefully take over once Blicavs and Henderson are gone?

our foward situation under 28 is far more problematic.

 

[Seeds]

The other thing I would add here is that you can play around with a deficiency in your forward line. We have done this for years. Say you have one kpd? Show your entries up, crowd the d50 to negate their kpds a bit, bring it ground and try use your ground level outnumber to hit the scoreboard. Not ideal but you can work around it.

On the other hand, if you're a kpd short you can't ask the opposition nicely to slow down their ball movement so you can put defenders in the way. If you're going to choose to be a tall short then you'd lose the kpf any day.

We aren’t a kpd short. We currently have too many.

and I disagree with your analysis. You can’t win games consistently with no key fowards. Sure you may luck one out with just smalls every now and then. But the same is true in defence as well. teams of small defenders have
overcome teams of big key quality fowards before as well. but just doesn’t happen often. Plus kolo, henry and Stewart can all fill in as talls. Not ideal but they can do it. We don’t have anyone who can fill in as key fowards beyond hawkins, sav and Cameron.

 

[cats_09]

Why do they need to be over 195cm? Scarlett wasn’t that tall. And isnt dekonning a big key back that can hopefully take over once Blicavs and Henderson are gone?

our foward situation under 28 is far more problematic.

of those guys you named as defensive options who are 192cm and shorter - how realistic do you think it is of any of them making it as KPD against the strong, big bodied forwards?

And why did you pick u28 when looking at the forwards - is it because Cameron turned 28 a couple of weeks ago so we are now excluding him from even though he's here for the next 6 years; why not say u30 which is maybe a better way to look at things

 

[cats_09]

We aren’t a kpd short. We currently have too many.

and I disagree with your analysis. You can’t win games consistently with no key fowards. Sure you may luck one out with just smalls every now and then. But the same is true in defence as well. teams if small defenders have overcame a team of big key fowards before as well. but just doesn’t happen often. Plus kolo, henry and Stewart can all fill in as talls. Not ideal but they can do it.

Outside of Henderson & Blicavs, who are our KPD that are ready to play senior football and that you'd be happy to see lining up against the top forwards on a weekly basis?