List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

George · Aug 22, 2021

Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link

To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...

www.bigfooty.com

saintsrfreak · May 13, 2021

Ever since the talented King twins were picked up in the 2018 draft, speculation has raged over whether they could be united at the one club. That possibility could be closer.

Jay Clark

St Kilda is expected to launch a massive bid to poach Gold Coast’s Ben King to join his twin brother Max in Saints’ colours.
The Saints remain eager to land the star spearhead at the end of next season when King’s contract with the Suns expires.
St Kilda’s strong interest in the No. 6 draft pick puts the Suns on notice to continue their climb up the ladder and contend for finals next year or risk losing King.

The third-year goal kicker has informed clubs that he doesn’t want to discuss his next contract until next season, with his focus firmly on the team’s on-field performance this year.

But St Kilda, which has loaded up on midfielders in the past three trade periods adding Brad Crouch, Brad Hill, Zak Jones, Jack Higgins and Daniel Hannebery, could help round out the club’s list build if it can snare the Sandringham product on a long-term deal.

Ben King is in no hurry to discuss his next contract.
The Saints face key decisions on a number of its players this season including free agent Jack Billings, workhorse midfielder Seb Ross, swingman Jake Carlisle as well as Hannebery to help manage the salary cap at season’s end.

Hannebery’s lucrative five-year deal expires at the end of 2023 but the former Swan has been heavily restricted by injury in his first three years at Moorabbin.
“If it keeps being that he can’t play, time will start to burn out, but we are not looking at it that way,” chief operating officer Simon Lethlean said last month.

Ben King has shown he can comfortably play at both ends throughout his junior career, but the goal kicker wants to develop his career as a forward where he has booted 65 goals in 39 games with the Suns.
His brother Max has booted 34 goals from 25 games on the back of his recovery from a knee reconstruction.

If successful in the trade raid next year, St Kilda would have one of the most dangerous forward combinations in the competition for the next decade if it can pair-up the King twins.

Does workhorse Seb Ross fit in St Kilda’s long-term plans? Picture: Michael Klein

Western Bulldogs’ legend and AFL Academy coach Brad Johnson told the Herald Sun recently the pair would soon become two of the best key forwards in the game.

“The King boys could be kicking 160 goals between them each year, with the way the game is going,” Johnson said.
“Their movement and agility is like no other 200cm players that I have seen.
“They read the ball well, they attack the contest, they don’t lose their feet.
“And when the ball hits the deck, it is like ‘wow, what is happening here’. And that is what we are seeing today. They are never out of the contest.
“That is what will set them apart as they get bigger and stronger.”
Gold Coast has made significant strides forward as a club under new coach Stuart Dew and is confident its on-field progression and off-field environment will be enough to keep the Sandringham product in Queensland.

The Suns have recently signed up a batch of their youngest stars including Matt Rowell, Noah Anderson and Izak Rankine.
MORE: WHY HAWKS SHOULD MAKE BOLD BREUST TRADE PLAY

Will twin brothers Ben and Max King be reunited at the Saints? Picture: Michael Klein

But any decision from King could hinge on the Suns’ ability to show they are capable of playing finals for the first time in their 11-year history.
All discussions on his future have been parked by his management, Connors Sports, until next year.

The Saints pipped the Suns by nine points on Saturday with Ben King nailing three goals one behind from nine disposals and Max King registering one goal two behinds from seven possessions.

Max King said last week he is not pestering his brother about his future.
“No I’m not quite in his ear, he’s happy up there at the moment, so I leave him to make his decisions for himself,” Max King said.

“I stay out of that, Gubby (Saints’ recruiter Graeme Allan) can do what he wants.”

ScrappyDo · May 13, 2021

stavro#4 said:
I’m saying we go all in or free agency in 22 or 23.

we attack the draft with everything on the table this year.

Ahh. I tend to agree.

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

stavro#4 said:
We are apparently paying him 700-750k now and I don’t think I’d want him on that if Steele is rumoured to be on 650k and out of contract end of next year.

You also have to way up how this season goes now we don’t have Jones And Gresh in the guts. 4-4 and highly likely to now be 4-6 in the next fortnight. We maybe win 1-3 more from the year looking at that run home without Gresh or Jones + Marshall carrying his injury and the current guys out injured.

So it comes down to we get pick 5. Is pick 6 compo enough for JB?

His best mate is apparently Luke McDonald and North have a habit of turning inconsistent players of Billings type into guns. (Grant and Higgins) + can and will pay him more.

i think there's some obvious plays going on in the list management space

my opinion on billings is he's a delidio type. he's a high draft pick, taken on the potential to play midfield. due to our shit ladder position and needing to hit a salary floor, billings has been massively overpaid for the entirety of his tenure at st kilda. he has never met his potential to play as a consistent midfielder. so much so that he ended up back on the half forward flank, this year and last year.

so now we hit the point where north Melbourne come knocking, with salary cap to burn. there is absolutely no way billings is worth > 700k. if anything billings should be taking a significant pay cut to smooth over the previous years under trouts amazing list management methodology of over paying what you already have.

if billings walks to get a massive payrise i don't begrudge him for doing so, but I do think we have the right to be shitty for the output he delivered for what he was getting paid. for a similar reason people were shitty with hill.

if he does walk, it would certainly mean band 1 compo, which even if it is that, it will not get us a pick high enough. i have us finishing 9th but it could be 12-9. so at best pick 6 at worst pick 10. pick 10 for billings won't cut it. unless there's some other play going on that we don't know about.

i don't think OUT: Billings IN: King is an adequate outcome either. we have huge issues in the midfield, we need to be moving billings to get an elite mid.

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

this is another obvious list management play, to go with King leaving GC.

i think the big piece this year is Cripps. i believe he is 100% leaving Carlton. i don't think he is going to WCE though. i think Freo are into Cripps massively. it's the only thing that would appease them into losing Cerra so easily.

i shudder at the thought that we would be into Yeo though, which has been one of the plays mentioned RE: cripps.

i couldn't stomach us going for another injury prone player on big coin, whilst trading out someone like Billings at unders.

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

i think GWS is probably the side you poach from for a mid. it might not be taranto though. imagine if its another injury prone guy like Whitfield...

stavro#4 · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
i think there's some obvious plays going on in the list management space

my opinion on billings is he's a delidio type. he's a high draft pick, taken on the potential to play midfield. due to our sh*t ladder position and needing to hit a salary floor, billings has been massively overpaid for the entirety of his tenure at st kilda. he has never met his potential to play as a consistent midfielder. so much so that he ended up back on the half forward flank, this year and last year.

so now we hit the point where north Melbourne come knocking, with salary cap to burn. there is absolutely no way billings is worth > 700k. if anything billings should be taking a significant pay cut to smooth over the previous years under trouts amazing list management methodology of over paying what you already have.

if billings walks to get a massive payrise i don't begrudge him for doing so, but I do think we have the right to be shitty for the output he delivered for what he was getting paid. for a similar reason people were shitty with hill.

if he does walk, it would certainly mean band 1 compo, which even if it is that, it will not get us a pick high enough. i have us finishing 9th but it could be 12-9. so at best pick 6 at worst pick 10. pick 10 for billings won't cut it. unless there's some other play going on that we don't know about.

i don't think OUT: Billings IN: King is an adequate outcome either. we have huge issues in the midfield, we need to be moving billings to get an elite mid.

But I’m not advocating the play be out Billings in King.

I’m advocating getting 2 young mids in the draft with the ability to break lines and have great foot skills.

22 and 23’ first rounders can be used for King as we would hope we finish higher then this season - of which if we are 4-6 before the Roos game. Play the kids we have left. If we finish 13th then so be it. We will be better off however.

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

back to list management though, i'd be doing everything I could to move Hanners onto the rookie list where some of his contract would be salary cap free

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

stavro#4 said:
But I’m not advocating the play be out Billings in King.

I’m advocating getting 2 young mids in the draft with the ability to break lines and have great foot skills.

22 and 23’ first rounders can be used for King as we would hope we finish higher then this season - of which if we are 4-6 before the Roos game. Play the kids we have left. If we finish 13th then so be it. We will be better off however.

i don't think we can hit the draft. it hasn't worked for us. we do not have one mid who's performing at an elite level from going to the draft. the last one was steven back in 2009, which was a completely different recruiting team.

they just don't have the runs on the board to do it.

if billings is going, we have to be bringing in something ready made at an elite level at a similar age group or younger. to support the list strategy we currently have with Hill/Jones/Steele etc.

saintsrfreak · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
i think GWS is probably the side you poach from for a mid. it might not be taranto though. imagine if its another injury prone guy like Whitfield...

Jacob Hopper you'd reckon, out of contract. May be too similar to what we have already tho

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

stavro#4 here is my worry:

essentially what we are saying is billings at pick 3 didnt come on as we had hoped and at 700k+ he's disposable, because his output at 26 isn't at an elite mid level. we thought every year that billings would eventually break out into an elite mid, probably on the wing. but its just never happened.

so then we look to the younger players we have and we look to their potential. say we take the highest potential mid in Clark, he's still under performing compared to Billings at the same age.

that's why i have no confidence in our ability to hit the draft.

I'm not having a crack at your suggestion either, it's exactly what we should be doing. problem is our recruitment and development is sub par that I don't think we can consider it.

Highlander35 · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
back to list management though, i'd be doing everything I could to move Hanners onto the rookie list where some of his contract would be salary cap free

I thought there was a change at some point so it was only the rookie base salary excluded from the cap for pretty much every player? Or am I pulling something out of my arse?

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

Highlander35 said:
I thought there was a change at some point so it was only the rookie base salary excluded from the cap for pretty much every player? Or am I pulling something out of my arse?

i think you are right. i think its 80k deduction.

we need to try and find some path forward here because the output we get for the dollar outlay is not enough. i wonder if moving him to the rookie list would allow us to increase his development coaching capabilities and take the pressure off for a possible return.

stavro#4 · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
stavro#4 here is my worry:
View attachment 1126293

essentially what we are saying is billings at pick 3 didnt come on as we had hoped and at 700k+ he's disposable, because his output at 26 isn't at an elite mid level. we thought every year that billings would eventually break out into an elite mid, probably on the wing. but its just never happened.

so then we look to the younger players we have and we look to their potential. say we take the highest potential mid in Clark, he's still under performing compared to Billings at the same age.

that's why i have no confidence in our ability to hit the draft.

I'm not having a crack at your suggestion either, it's exactly what we should be doing. problem is our recruitment and development is sub par that I don't think we can consider it.

Was 2017 not Billings 2nd statistical best year?
he struggled in 2018. Average disposal dropped to below Clark’s current average for 18 - not that it is the greatest indicator. Just pointing out the flaw in your logic.

secondly, Clark is averaging those numbers in a side where he is playing Half forward/Half Back/ small on ball time and was still massive last week when the game was to be won as he was against GWS. I back him to be a better player then Billings in 4 years time.

Lastly for all these numbers, has he had a huge impact on winning?

Joffaboy · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
i don't think we can hit the draft. it hasn't worked for us. we do not have one mid who's performing at an elite level from going to the draft. the last one was steven back in 2009, which was a completely different recruiting team.

they just don't have the runs on the board to do it.

if billings is going, we have to be bringing in something ready made at an elite level at a similar age group or younger. to support the list strategy we currently have with Hill/Jones/Steele etc.

I agree. Our list profile is OK for under 25's, if we bring in a gun (say taranto for arguments sake) he is 23, we get a kid with the other top ten pick, who is 18, next year King who will be 22, list profile still young.

I am halfway between you and stav, we get young guns, and a top dp.

Joffaboy · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
stavro#4 here is my worry:
View attachment 1126293

essentially what we are saying is billings at pick 3 didnt come on as we had hoped and at 700k+ he's disposable, because his output at 26 isn't at an elite mid level. we thought every year that billings would eventually break out into an elite mid, probably on the wing. but its just never happened.

so then we look to the younger players we have and we look to their potential. say we take the highest potential mid in Clark, he's still under performing compared to Billings at the same age.

that's why i have no confidence in our ability to hit the draft.

I'm not having a crack at your suggestion either, it's exactly what we should be doing. problem is our recruitment and development is sub par that I don't think we can consider it.

What are Billings 2021 stats, 2021 v 2017 even though age is the same are not like for like.

Only like for like are this years stats.

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

stavro#4 said:
Was 2017 not Billings 2nd statistical best year?
he struggled in 2018. Average disposal dropped to below Clark’s current average for 18 - not that it is the greatest indicator. Just pointing out the flaw in your logic.

secondly, Clark is averaging those numbers in a side where he is playing Half forward/Half Back/ small on ball time and was still massive last week when the game was to be won as he was against GWS. I back him to be a better player then Billings in 4 years time.

Lastly for all these numbers, has he had a huge impact on winning?

i don't think billings impact on the side has been huge, I think he's a good part of it, but he's not at a steele/ryder/marshall/wilkie type level

its a valid point on the comparison for Clark RE: he's playing on the half back. but that's the problem in its self isn't it. we still haven't transitioned him to the midfield, which would give me more confidence in going to the draft.

so then I'm going: "ok if it's not clark, who is the other guy that's reached an elite level or looking very damn close to it" that will give me confidence in our ability to draft.

i don't think there is anyone. so I'm left to hoping we can do it. hope and st kilda seem to go hand in hand.

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

Joffaboy said:
I agree. Our list profile is OK for under 25's, if we bring in a gun (say taranto for arguments sake) he is 23, we get a kid with the other top ten pick, who is 18, next year King who will be 22, list profile still young.

I am halfway between you and stav, we get young guns, and a top dp.

splitting it would make sense from a risk perspective. plus I do like the potential in that under 25 group. just wish we had some actuality on some mids.

Joffaboy · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
i don't think billings impact on the side has been huge, I think he's a good part of it, but he's not at a steele/ryder/marshall/wilkie type level

its a valid point on the comparison for Clark RE: he's playing on the half back. but that's the problem in its self isn't it. we still haven't transitioned him to the midfield, which would give me more confidence in going to the draft.

so then I'm going: "ok if it's not clark, who is the other guy that's reached an elite level or looking very damn close to it" that will give me confidence in our ability to draft.

i don't think there is anyone. so I'm left to hoping we can do it. hope and st kilda seem to go hand in hand.

Gresham

stavro#4 · May 13, 2021

Joffaboy said:
I agree. Our list profile is OK for under 25's, if we bring in a gun (say taranto for arguments sake) he is 23, we get a kid with the other top ten pick, who is 18, next year King who will be 22, list profile still young.

I am halfway between you and stav, we get young guns, and a top dp.

I’m happy with either option. I just don’t think we land a Taranto and I’m not overly interested in Cerra. I also think there is better value then Billings for us.

we literally have 3 options.
A) double draft pick aka Coffield and Clark - but use the salary in 22 or 23 for a FA
B) the Kid and the star trade
C)re-sign JB and draft with our pick

StCicatriz · May 13, 2021

Joffaboy said:
Gresham

which makes me feel Ill, high potential player looking to break into the midfield, has some serious wow moments in there, but it's patchy. then breaks down with injury. which means there is significant chunks of this season and last gone.

stavro#4 · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
i don't think billings impact on the side has been huge, I think he's a good part of it, but he's not at a steele/ryder/marshall/wilkie type level

its a valid point on the comparison for Clark RE: he's playing on the half back. but that's the problem in its self isn't it. we still haven't transitioned him to the midfield, which would give me more confidence in going to the draft.

so then I'm going: "ok if it's not clark, who is the other guy that's reached an elite level or looking very damn close to it" that will give me confidence in our ability to draft.

i don't think there is anyone. so I'm left to hoping we can do it. hope and st kilda seem to go hand in hand.

Steele is elite and that’s on the club and they wanted to draft him.
Gresham was heading that way before an Achilles (how the **** does he pop an Achilles ffs)

thats 2 I consider more valuable then Billings that make me think we can identify talent.

i actually have more concerns with the mid season draft talent identification then the national draft.

Joffaboy · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
which makes me feel Ill, high potential player looking to break into the midfield, has some serious wow moments in there, but it's patchy. then breaks down with injury. which means there is significant chunks of this season and last gone.

I am not saying I want either Billing or Gresham gone, but they are the two out of all our kids with currency who we could let go.

I reckon the rest at that level (Clark, King) are off limits.

gringo2011 · May 13, 2021

Big 0 said:
Taranto is a ball butcher/accumulator type. If we go after midfielders I’d rather see us pick up someone with class and foot skills, Merett or Kelly if possible, the latter way too expensive tho

Taranto is a bit better than a ball butcher but he is a predominantly inside type of mid. green on a class type though, foot skills would be nice. I have hope that Bytel can become our Taranto type with games.

stavro#4 · May 13, 2021

Joffaboy said:
I am not saying I want either Billing or Gresham gone, but they are the two out of all our kids with currency who we could let go.

I reckon the rest at that level (Clark, King) are off limits.

No sane club would pay what we conceive as value for Gresham after his Achilles on top of eating his 650k a year.

gringo2011 · May 13, 2021

StCicatriz said:
this is another obvious list management play, to go with King leaving GC.

i think the big piece this year is Cripps. i believe he is 100% leaving Carlton. i don't think he is going to WCE though. i think Freo are into Cripps massively. it's the only thing that would appease them into losing Cerra so easily.

i shudder at the thought that we would be into Yeo though, which has been one of the plays mentioned RE: cripps.

i couldn't stomach us going for another injury prone player on big coin, whilst trading out someone like Billings at unders.

Why shudder at Yeo, is his body ****ed?

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