New Russian relationship

[DaRick]

Putin to stop poisoning people.
Actually I see no rapprochement between Russia and the West until Putin is gone, even then Russian paranoia and suspicion may stop it happening. They seem to really believe the West intends to invade, which to me is nonsense. They have much, much more to fear from the PRC, yet they are appear besties now. Perhaps this parallels with the Ribbentrop pact last century.

For there to be a rapprochement with the West, either 1) Russia comes to see the PRC as a greater threat to their interests than the West or 2) the West changes tack towards Russia.

I've listed some of the reasons why Russia has such a dim view of the US, but another one is that the US effectively fixed an election in 1996 to keep a compliant President in power (Yeltsin), even though he was decimating the economy and sending Russia into military debacles (Chechnya).

When you consider the PRC's own grievances with the US (the whole 'pivot to Asia' thing marked the US as a belligerent rather than a partner), it's not surprising that China and Russia have teamed up for now. China and Russia are far from natural allies (Sino-Soviet split) so I don't think that was inevitable.

 

[CD Xbow]

For there to be a rapprochement with the West, either 1) Russia comes to see the PRC as a greater threat to their interests than the West or 2) the West changes tack towards Russia.

I've listed some of the reasons why Russia has such a dim view of the US, but another one is that the US effectively fixed an election in 1996 to keep a compliant President in power (Yeltsin), even though he was decimating the economy and sending Russia into military debacles (Chechnya).

When you consider the PRC's own grievances with the US (the whole 'pivot to Asia' thing marked the US as a belligerent rather than a partner), it's not surprising that China and Russia have teamed up for now. China and Russia are far from natural allies (Sino-Soviet split) so I don't think that was inevitable.

It's a little more subtle than one or the other.

I don't think the pivot to Asia by the US changed the nature of the PRC plans at all. They have always been 'belligerent', it's just they were mainly soft power users and we in the West believed that the rise of the PRC could be managed, we could all be friends and sing Kumbaya together . This was an overly optimistic attitude which the last 12 months has revealed as fantasy. The mask has been removed, the cuddly Panda has be revealed as a fire breathing Dragon. Sorry, this is getting a bit of topic.

 

[DaRick]

It's a little more subtle than one or the other.

I don't think the pivot to Asia by the US changed the nature of the PRC plans at all. They have always been 'belligerent', it's just they were mainly soft power users and we in the West believed that the rise of the PRC could be managed, we could all be friends and sing Kumbaya together . This was an overly optimistic attitude which the last 12 months has revealed as fantasy. The mask has been removed, the cuddly Panda has be revealed as a fire breathing Dragon. Sorry, this is getting a bit of topic.

I tend to think that the PRC always wanted to be the world's top dog, but again, they are more pragmatic than naturally competitive. For that reason, I'd say that their vision of the world was originally a bit more multilateral than that of the US, with their global influence largely being restricted to economic activities, if only because making enemies with superpowers is not particularly good for business. Things are different now, of course.

But yes, we're drifting off-topic.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I tend to think that the PRC always wanted to be the world's top dog, but again, they are more pragmatic than naturally competitive. For that reason, I'd say that their vision of the world was originally a bit more multilateral than that of the US, with their global influence largely being restricted to economic activities, if only because making enemies with superpowers is not particularly good for business. Things are different now, of course.

But yes, we're drifting off-topic.

if you look at chinese history, "they" only went on epic conquer the world runs twice, and it wasnt them (it was the mongols after they conquered and took control of china)

china has been historically focused on what it thinks is "china" for two reasons IMO. the first, is historically a massive superiority complex. They refused to adopt many superior western military technologies because they assumed barbarian tech was inferior to the awesome power of china. they had a few tilts at exploration, most famously Zheng He, who is a big part of the reason for their SCS claim. he got one run, and upon returning the emperor changed and the new one didnt give two hecks about seeing if the grass is greener. this is important because it underlines a fundamental problem with chinese thinking. being 3000 years old, they assume they have seen every challenge. Add to this their Confucian teaching practices, which promote rote learning over research and innovation. This isnt a country that thrives on exploration or innovation, it assumes china is the diamond in the crown, so who gives as s**t about the crappy semi previous stones.

secondly managing the millions within china has always been a massive headache, and maintaining social cohesion has taken much of their resources. everyone focuses on the han oppressing the minorities, but even the han had enough warlords and generals to covert power and dominance. now did this mean china was happy for the rest of the world to do whatever the heck it wanted? not quite. if you were out of reach, yeah, heck off - dont know you, dont like you, and never want to meet you. if you're nearby, tribute. rock up, leave gifts, koutou, and heck off.

today IMO we are still dealing with this s**t. Chinese view china as the supreme nation on this earth, and the past three hundred years was a time out caused by western humiliation. they want what they consider their rightful place on that throne back. now that doesnt mean they want to conquer the world. what it means is they want (and frankly crave) respect. they want to be treated as a superpower, with the rights and privileges that power gives. and they want to never be in a position to bow down to any other nation again.

this is why i want us to be unaligned. our values culturally dont match those of the PRC. however, every year our nation is becoming more asian, and the usa is beginning its slide. just like england, at some stage they will start focusing on key areas only, because they can no longer afford to project power globally. that means we will be ****ed off pretty quickly. We need to find a way to live in the shadow of china, but without being swallowed by them. we dont do that imo by provoking them in our role as the USA's deputy sheriff of asia. at some stage the usa will ditch up for more important fights, why wait to be dumped?

 

[DaRick]

if you look at chinese history, "they" only went on epic conquer the world runs twice, and it wasnt them (it was the mongols after they conquered and took control of china)

china has been historically focused on what it thinks is "china" for two reasons IMO. the first, is historically a massive superiority complex. They refused to adopt many superior western military technologies because they assumed barbarian tech was inferior to the awesome power of china. they had a few tilts at exploration, most famously Zheng He, who is a big part of the reason for their SCS claim. he got one run, and upon returning the emperor changed and the new one didnt give two fu**s about seeing if the grass is greener. this is important because it underlines a fundamental problem with chinese thinking. being 3000 years old, they assume they have seen every challenge. Add to this their Confucian teaching practices, which promote rote learning over research and innovation. This isnt a country that thrives on exploration or innovation, it assumes china is the diamond in the crown, so who gives as sh*t about the crappy semi previous stones.

secondly managing the millions within china has always been a massive headache, and maintaining social cohesion has taken much of their resources. everyone focuses on the han oppressing the minorities, but even the han had enough warlords and generals to covert power and dominance. now did this mean china was happy for the rest of the world to do whatever the fu** it wanted? not quite. if you were out of reach, yeah, fu** off - dont know you, dont like you, and never want to meet you. if you're nearby, tribute. rock up, leave gifts, koutou, and fu** off.

today IMO we are still dealing with this sh*t. Chinese view china as the supreme nation on this earth, and the past three hundred years was a time out caused by western humiliation. they want what they consider their rightful place on that throne back. now that doesnt mean they want to conquer the world. what it means is they want (and frankly crave) respect. they want to be treated as a superpower, with the rights and privileges that power gives. and they want to never be in a position to bow down to any other nation again.

this is why i want us to be unaligned. our values culturally dont match those of the PRC. however, every year our nation is becoming more asian, and the usa is beginning its slide. just like england, at some stage they will start focusing on key areas only, because they can no longer afford to project power globally. that means we will be f’ed off pretty quickly. We need to find a way to live in the shadow of china, but without being swallowed by them. we dont do that imo by provoking them in our role as the USA's deputy sheriff of asia. at some stage the usa will ditch up for more important fights, why wait to be dumped?

Thanks for the insightful post.

Reading all this, the interesting thing about modern China is that they've shown themselves all too willing to explore - having Chinese students act as spies, stealing technology (because they're IMO more naturally imitative than innovative) - I guess that must be their pragmatic instincts kicking in. Also their willingness to sink money into research.

Additionally, I now get the impression that China has not substantially liberalised their polity because they believe that to maintain what actually seems to be a multi-clan state, they must maintain strong leadership and at least the trappings of an overlying ideology (Communism) to get everyone pulling in the same direction. You can see the same pattern in other multi-ethnic/clan states like Tito's Yugoslavia and Barre's Somalia, and no doubt China learned a few lessons from the former in particular.

RE being non-aligned, Finlandization is a possible way forward, if one imagines the US as the neighbouring great power instead of the Soviet Union. I say that not just because of pre-existing cultural/social/political influence but also because the US has military assets in this country. IOW, appear friendly and cooperative to the US without marking yourself as China's enemy (like not causing them to lose face by calling them out in front of the world). EDIT: Obviously as the US decays, this policy will become more obsolete over time. Hopefully it doesn't result in us having to do the same thing with China later.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Thanks for the insightful post.

Reading all this, the interesting thing about modern China is that they've shown themselves all too willing to explore - having Chinese students act as spies, stealing technology (because they're IMO more naturally imitative than innovative) - I guess that must be their pragmatic instincts kicking in. Also their willingness to sink money into research.

Additionally, I now get the impression that China has not substantially liberalised their polity because they believe that to maintain what actually seems to be a multi-clan state, they must maintain strong leadership and at least the trappings of an overlying ideology (Communism) to get everyone pulling in the same direction. You can see the same pattern in other multi-ethnic/clan states like Tito's Yugoslavia and Barre's Somalia, and no doubt China learned a few lessons from the former in particular.

RE being non-aligned, Finlandization is a possible way forward, if one imagines the US as the neighbouring great power instead of the Soviet Union. I say that not just because of pre-existing cultural/social/political influence but also because the US has military assets in this country. IOW, appear friendly and cooperative to the US without marking yourself as China's enemy (like not causing them to lose face by calling them out in front of the world).

all just IMO, China isnt exploring, its their rip off of the Japanese Meiji Restoration. Send people all over the world, learn the best of the west, come home and incorporate it in a Chinese way

On policy, there is a trade off. as long as the CCP keep jobs flowing and food on the table, people dont care about democracy or rights. its something we genuinely do not get, there are not massive numbers of chinese crying for democratic freedoms and to become another usa clone

 

[DaRick]

all just IMO, China isnt exploring, its their rip off of the Japanese Meiji Restoration. Send people all over the world, learn the best of the west, come home and incorporate it in a Chinese way

On policy, there is a trade off. as long as the CCP keep jobs flowing and food on the table, people dont care about democracy or rights. its something we genuinely do not get, there are not massive numbers of chinese crying for democratic freedoms and to become another usa clone

It's also the reason why the West consistently fails to understand Putin's appeal in Russia.

Speaking to Russians, it was obvious to me that they see him as a guarantor of security (both political and economic) in a potentially fragile multi-ethnic state. They don't see liberal democracy as providing that.

 

[Fire]

It is not wise to do business with Russia. They have a habit of using leverage. Its best to decouple.

 

[DaRick]

Looks like the Nagorno-Karabakh war has wrapped up with an Azeri win:

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Russia sign deal to end Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

President Putin said Russian peacekeepers would be deployed along the frontline in Nagorno-Karabakh and the corridor between the region and Armenia.

www.afr.com

TLDR, from Wiki:

Result

Azerbaijani victory[25][26] Ceasefire agreement signed on 10 November 2020[24] Azerbaijan retains control over the territories that it recaptured during the war Russian and Turkish joint peacekeeping forces to be deployed to the region,[27] Armenia is granted access to Nagorno-Karabakh through Lachin corridor Start of the 2020 Armenian protests Memorandum of understanding signed on 11 November 2020, for the formation of the Joint Turkish–Russian Center[27]

Territorial changes

During the war: Azerbaijan gains control of 5 cities, 4 towns, 240 villages[28] and the entire Azerbaijan–Iran border Post-ceasefire: Some parts of Nagorno-Karabakh, along with all Armenian-controlled territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh to be ceded back to Azerbaijan by 1 December 2020 Azerbaijan is granted direct land access to its exclave of Nakhchivan via a corridor through Armenia[29]

My overall impressions:
- This war has been a disaster for Armenia - they lost territory, suffered heavy casualties, failed to counter Azerbaijan's drones and were essentially forced to capitulate to Azeri demands.

- Alienating a key ally and limiting military/intelligence/security collaboration with them, which Armenia has done in recent years RE Russia, has potential strategic costs.

- The Azeris have confirmed that drones have an essential part to play in modern air-to-ground warfare, and that an extensive SAM (surface-to-air missle) network such as that deployed by the Armenians will not necessarily stop them from inflicting heavy casualties at minimal personal cost. Armenia's inability to deploy such drones itself undoubtedly expedited its eventual defeat. Azerbaijan still suffered heavy casualties, but they have over 3 times Armenia's population, and clearly Armenia could not inflict nearly that many casualties proportionally.

- This war has had mixed outcomes for Russia and Turkey. Turkey's ally won and Turkey gets to increase its potential influence by deploying peacekeepers to the region, but they have to deploy them in concert with Russian peacekeepers. Russia have not exactly been amenable to Erdogan's Neo-Ottoman ambitions, so that won't exactly please the wannabe sultan. Meanwhile, Russia's ally lost, and Ukraine have been emboldened accordingly, but the Armenian regime itself has been badly weakened and will likely be unsustainable, which will probably lead to a more pro-Russian regime replacing it.

- Iran are also losers in this conflict. Azerbaijan and Israel have both achieved their goals; Azerbaijan won territory while keeping casualties manageable, while Israel got to test their equipment in battle while strengthening ties with Azerbaijan. Given that Iran have fairly good relations with Armenia while sharing tense relations with Azerbaijan and hostile relations with Israel, they are unlikely to be pleased with Armenia's capitulation. Their close ally Syria also have good relations with Armenia and poor ones with Turkey, which doesn't help.

- Saudi Arabia have enjoyed a mixed outcome. It's reasonably clear to me that they would have preferred an Armenian victory because they were wary of Erdogan's Turkey being emboldened by any potential Azeri victory, but Turkey's success was qualified and Iran have been losers in the conflict, so for them it's not all bad.

- Ethnic cleansing of Armenians in the conquered territories is still a real worry, although Russian peacekeepers would likely stem some of it. That being said, I can still see a lot of Armenians fleeing to Armenia-proper in fear of Azeri reprisals for past ethnic cleansing.

 

[Jello_B]

Looks like the Nagorno-Karabakh war has wrapped up with an Azeri win:

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Russia sign deal to end Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

President Putin said Russian peacekeepers would be deployed along the frontline in Nagorno-Karabakh and the corridor between the region and Armenia.

www.afr.com

TLDR, from Wiki:

Result

Azerbaijani victory[25][26] Ceasefire agreement signed on 10 November 2020[24] Azerbaijan retains control over the territories that it recaptured during the war Russian and Turkish joint peacekeeping forces to be deployed to the region,[27] Armenia is granted access to Nagorno-Karabakh through Lachin corridor Start of the 2020 Armenian protests Memorandum of understanding signed on 11 November 2020, for the formation of the Joint Turkish–Russian Center[27]

Territorial changes

During the war: Azerbaijan gains control of 5 cities, 4 towns, 240 villages[28] and the entire Azerbaijan–Iran border Post-ceasefire: Some parts of Nagorno-Karabakh, along with all Armenian-controlled territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh to be ceded back to Azerbaijan by 1 December 2020 Azerbaijan is granted direct land access to its exclave of Nakhchivan via a corridor through Armenia[29]

My overall impressions:
- This war has been a disaster for Armenia - they lost territory, suffered heavy casualties, failed to counter Azerbaijan's drones and were essentially forced to capitulate to Azeri demands.

- Alienating a key ally and limiting military/intelligence/security collaboration with them, which Armenia has done in recent years RE Russia, has potential strategic costs.

- The Azeris have confirmed that drones have an essential part to play in modern air-to-ground warfare, and that an extensive SAM (surface-to-air missle) network such as that deployed by the Armenians will not necessarily stop them from inflicting heavy casualties at minimal personal cost. Armenia's inability to deploy such drones itself undoubtedly expedited its eventual defeat. Azerbaijan still suffered heavy casualties, but they have over 3 times Armenia's population, and clearly Armenia could not inflict nearly that many casualties proportionally.

- This war has had mixed outcomes for Russia and Turkey. Turkey's ally won and Turkey gets to increase its potential influence by deploying peacekeepers to the region, but they have to deploy them in concert with Russian peacekeepers. Russia have not exactly been amenable to Erdogan's Neo-Ottoman ambitions, so that won't exactly please the wannabe sultan. Meanwhile, Russia's ally lost, and Ukraine have been emboldened accordingly, but the Armenian regime itself has been badly weakened and will likely be unsustainable, which will probably lead to a more pro-Russian regime replacing it.

- Iran are also losers in this conflict. Azerbaijan and Israel have both achieved their goals; Azerbaijan won territory while keeping casualties manageable, while Israel got to test their equipment in battle while strengthening ties with Azerbaijan. Given that Iran have fairly good relations with Armenia while sharing tense relations with Azerbaijan and hostile relations with Israel, they are unlikely to be pleased with Armenia's capitulation. Their close ally Syria also have good relations with Armenia and poor ones with Turkey, which doesn't help.

- Saudi Arabia have enjoyed a mixed outcome. It's reasonably clear to me that they would have preferred an Armenian victory because they were wary of Erdogan's Turkey being emboldened by any potential Azeri victory, but Turkey's success was qualified and Iran have been losers in the conflict, so for them it's not all bad.

- Ethnic cleansing of Armenians in the conquered territories is still a real worry, although Russian peacekeepers would likely stem some of it. That being said, I can still see a lot of Armenians fleeing to Armenia-proper in fear of Azeri reprisals for past ethnic cleansing.

Thoughts on recent messaging? Seems obvious to me that Russia and US will start working more closely together now.

 

[Power Raid]

Thoughts on recent messaging? Seems obvious to me that Russia and US will start working more closely together now.

russia has already developed what the west needs to counter China's growing naval force and naval batteries in the South China Sea. It will also save Australia $300B to $500B ................. and that is nuclear powered drone torpedoes. They do everything a submarine can, without the risk of life and can be mass produced and have artificial intelligence.

Submarines are no no longer required and yesterday's technology.


We should be partnering with Russia and with that comes India. This means the number 1, 2 and 4th most powerful militaries are aligned.

 

[madmug]

Thoughts on recent messaging? Seems obvious to me that Russia and US will start working more closely together now.

A 'marriage' of current convenience perhaps?

Russia & China have a long 'history'. China have apparently voiced territorial desires over parts or the Russian far east.

USA & Russia are old cold war enemies. Now its a different world & they have more common foes with with which to contend.

Its a 'funny' old world of international relations, or whatever they call it now.

 

[CD Xbow]

The truth leaks out - How a court case may have inadvertently revealed that Russia has troops in Ukraine | The Independent

Tens of thousands of Russian troops likely to be massing in Donbass. Will Mr Putin spin the wheel?

 

[Green Hammer]

The truth leaks out - How a court case may have inadvertently revealed that Russia has troops in Ukraine | The Independent

Tens of thousands of Russian troops likely to be massing in Donbass. Will Mr Putin spin the wheel?

Gone back to base. The west is spinning more bullshit hysteria

 

[Green Hammer]

A 'marriage' of current convenience perhaps?

Russia & China have a long 'history'. China have apparently voiced territorial desires over parts or the Russian far east.

USA & Russia are old cold war enemies. Now its a different world & they have more common foes with with which to contend.

Its a 'funny' old world of international relations, or whatever they call it now.

Xi names the ‘new heights’ China-Russia relations reached in 2021

Chinese President Xi Jinping praised the bilateral relations with Russia in a New Year’s message to President Vladimir Putin, saying the two set new trade records and stepped up their game in the fields of energy and space.

www.rt.com

 

[Power Raid]

Xi names the ‘new heights’ China-Russia relations reached in 2021

Chinese President Xi Jinping praised the bilateral relations with Russia in a New Year’s message to President Vladimir Putin, saying the two set new trade records and stepped up their game in the fields of energy and space.

www.rt.com

when push comes to shove, Russia will be on our side

Russia is a conservative nation and with that comes racism and religion. There is no way they will side with yellow people.

I base this comment on the Indian Govts view that despite Russia being an ally, they won't help India in a time of need due to the colour of their skin.

 

[Green Hammer]

when push comes to shove, Russia will be on our side

Russia is a conservative nation and with that comes racism and religion. There is no way they will side with yellow people

Why would they align themselves to a sinking ship

Countries accelerate shift away from US dollar

The holdings of gold in the foreign exchange reserves of the central banks have been growing worldwide, hitting a 31-year high this year. At the same time, US dollar holdings have been dropping.

www.rt.com

 

[Power Raid]

Why would they align themselves to a sinking ship

Countries accelerate shift away from US dollar

The holdings of gold in the foreign exchange reserves of the central banks have been growing worldwide, hitting a 31-year high this year. At the same time, US dollar holdings have been dropping.

www.rt.com

Is it a sinking ship?

Or just an opinion?

 

[Green Hammer]

Is it a sinking ship?

Or just an opinion?

Yes and no

 

[Power Raid]

Why would they align themselves to a sinking ship

Countries accelerate shift away from US dollar

The holdings of gold in the foreign exchange reserves of the central banks have been growing worldwide, hitting a 31-year high this year. At the same time, US dollar holdings have been dropping.

www.rt.com

There is no doubt the US has lost the momentum gained from securing all the technology from the UK and Germany post war. Then we see the greatest emergence of middle class globally, in the history of man, under the reign of US which is pegging back the gap.

China's rise will be short lived without massive social reforms, the economic impact of losing ~40% of their population and being overtaken by india.

Hopefully China learns from what made the US great and avoid the issues that make the US a pathetic society. Hopefully the EU under the pressure of China and US continue to evolve to become a better and better place. Hopefully Russia post putin has an orderly transition of power.

 

[Green Hammer]

There is no doubt the US has lost the momentum gained from securing all the technology from the UK and Germany post war. Then we see the greatest emergence of middle class globally, in the history of man, under the reign of US which is pegging back the gap.

China's rise will be short lived without massive social reforms, the economic impact of losing ~40% of their population and being overtaken by india.

Hopefully China learns from what made the US great and avoid the issues that make the US a pathetic society. Hopefully the EU under the pressure of China and US continue to evolve to become a better and better place. Hopefully Russia post putin has an orderly transition of power.

They have learnt. China has not and refuses to, open up to US hedge fund privatisation of their country to the US empire’s outrage of course.

Also china builds things in other countries rather than bombing them. That helps

 

[sdfc]

if you look at chinese history, "they" only went on epic conquer the world runs twice, and it wasnt them (it was the mongols after they conquered and took control of china)

china has been historically focused on what it thinks is "china" for two reasons IMO. the first, is historically a massive superiority complex. They refused to adopt many superior western military technologies because they assumed barbarian tech was inferior to the awesome power of china. they had a few tilts at exploration, most famously Zheng He, who is a big part of the reason for their SCS claim. he got one run, and upon returning the emperor changed and the new one didnt give two fu**s about seeing if the grass is greener. this is important because it underlines a fundamental problem with chinese thinking. being 3000 years old, they assume they have seen every challenge. Add to this their Confucian teaching practices, which promote rote learning over research and innovation. This isnt a country that thrives on exploration or innovation, it assumes china is the diamond in the crown, so who gives as sh*t about the crappy semi previous stones.

secondly managing the millions within china has always been a massive headache, and maintaining social cohesion has taken much of their resources. everyone focuses on the han oppressing the minorities, but even the han had enough warlords and generals to covert power and dominance. now did this mean china was happy for the rest of the world to do whatever the fu** it wanted? not quite. if you were out of reach, yeah, fu** off - dont know you, dont like you, and never want to meet you. if you're nearby, tribute. rock up, leave gifts, koutou, and fu** off.

today IMO we are still dealing with this sh*t. Chinese view china as the supreme nation on this earth, and the past three hundred years was a time out caused by western humiliation. they want what they consider their rightful place on that throne back. now that doesnt mean they want to conquer the world. what it means is they want (and frankly crave) respect. they want to be treated as a superpower, with the rights and privileges that power gives. and they want to never be in a position to bow down to any other nation again.

this is why i want us to be unaligned. our values culturally dont match those of the PRC. however, every year our nation is becoming more asian, and the usa is beginning its slide. just like england, at some stage they will start focusing on key areas only, because they can no longer afford to project power globally. that means we will be f’ed off pretty quickly. We need to find a way to live in the shadow of china, but without being swallowed by them. we dont do that imo by provoking them in our role as the USA's deputy sheriff of asia. at some stage the usa will ditch up for more important fights, why wait to be dumped?

China has a long history of expansion.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

China has a long history of expansion.

In what is essentially the Taiwanese definition of China today.

 

[sdfc]

In what is essentially the Taiwanese definition of China today.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Taiwan still claims mainland China PLUS all of Mongolia, and parts of India, Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Russia, and a few others.

The only times China had a true "let's conquer everyone" army was the two times the Mongol Khan's took the throne, and for very good reason.

Managing it's internal strife and revolts occupied it pretty much entirely. The Mongol empires collapsed both times simply because it's too hard to control massive land territories over prolonged periods of time. Its why they essentially ignored you as long as tributes were made.

The holy Roman Empire had the same problem. While the dream of copying Charlemagne and he reunification of Europe was always there, it's was too hard to conquer and hold the individual crowns for long periods of time.

For all the talk of China's external facing army, people massively underestimate how much effort is going to keeping China whole. They don't have the world's largest CCTV system watching its own people to stop shoplifting