Play Nice AFL Womens - General Discussion

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greatwhiteshark said:
you said it is irrelevant whether the women bring anything to the table, never at any point did I say they need to fund themselves right now.
I responded to your quote which basically said women never have to do anything.
I actually said they were in their infancy and hopefully In time will continue to raise what they bring to the table.
As I said to Owen you are all to bloody sensitive, it was your quote not mine.
I think the women are relevant, you think they are not.
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That I said they do not need to justify their existence by making a profit, leads you to believe I think they are irrelevant?? That they are relevant is why the AFL is prepared to lose money on them.

And that the AFL is prepared to sink funds into it now doesn't mean a financial return is off the table, or not part of the equation long term. I do not think the AFL has factored in profit for the AFLW in any sort of planning period they have, but the more income the AFLW generates, the less net cost there is in running the comp, the more money the AFL will invest.

AFLW cash flow is good, its just not the deal breaker that the haters hope it will be.
 

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HugeJohnson said:
How does the AFLW actually make money? This is a genuine question, as far as I know entry to games is free and I can't see TV viewership being too high, although I'm not aware of exact figures.
I understand the importance of women's sport and I'm in no way trying to belittle the competition, I'm just curious how they justify tripling the salaries of these players in the next couple of years with no money being generated from the competition.
The AFL are already propping up quite a few AFL clubs, they've cut the soft-cap, and now with even more AFLW teams coming in on top of that and minimum salaries being tripled, all the while crowds in both the men's games and women's games seemingly falling away in the last couple of years... I'm wondering how sustainable it is in the long run. The women's game is decades away from even thinking about it being profitable, I'm not sure 60k per year adds up.

They say they want to be paid for 22 hours a week. Over a 16 round season (12+4 finals) plus let's say 6 weeks of preseason
22×22 = 484 hours
59013÷484 = $121.92p/h

Let's say a team doesn't even make finals so just 12 rounds plus 6 week preseason
18×22 = 396
59013÷396 = $149.02p/h

To me, thats crazy money. And that would just be the minimum salary!
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I don't know how it's justified either.

WNBA is well established and runs a shortfall of $10 million a year on operating costs. And this is in a country of 330million people that are sports mad from highschool level upwards.

The average WNBA player salary is $120k, the highest is 228k. Their season is 36 games plus finals.

That's a league that has been around about 25years. AFL needs a lot of ground work to establish this fully.

Disclaimer - I'm not against the league, and have watched games and understand the afl is pushing for inclusivity at grass roots level. I just don't think higher salary at the top level really changes the level of female participation at Auskick level or raises the standard at the highest level to make it better spectacle.

Id be giving that money out like candy to get the players out to schools/camps/clinics.
 
my name was taken said:
I don't know how it's justified either.

WNBA is well established and runs a shortfall of $10 million a year on operating costs. And this is in a country of 330million people that are sports mad from highschool level upwards.

The average WNBA player salary is $120k, the highest is 228k. Their season is 36 games plus finals.

That's a league that has been around about 25years. AFL needs a lot of ground work to establish this fully.
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And you'll remain confused as long as you look at AFLW through the irrelevant lens of the American model.

The rapid growth of league-wide sponsorship and membership, and having a highly diverse audience, justifies the AFL's investment as well as boding well for reaching their long term aspirational targets. And that's before even getting into the benefits witnessed at club level, such as...

Adelaide: Board member/football director has stated their women's program has been profitable from day one.
Brisbane: $70m+ training facility driven by women's football, men's team benefit after failing to get funding for over a decade.
Carlton: $40m+ for facility upgrades, a significant chunk of which will be used mostly by the men's team.
Collingwood: President has stated women's team was key in securing the club's biggest sponsorship deals.

...I could go on alphabetically one by one through each club. But at this point, if you don't get the gist, it's probably because you don't want to.

my name was taken said:
I just don't think higher salary at the top level... raises the standard at the highest level to make it better spectacle.
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Might be the most out-of-touch statement anybody's made in 118 pages.

I wonder why since huge payrises in Australian women's cricket in 2017 (not just for the best 11, but right down to the bottom-half domestic players quickly going from $10k to $40k to $60k per year), towering over the investments made by other countries, the national team has basically become unbeatable.

They went from getting knocked out of World Cups by the West Indies and India (not even the traditionally strong England and New Zealand), to winning 40 of 42 ODIs and never losing a T20I series. Massive increase in audience for the WBBL in that time too.

No credible evaluation would claim the product isn't a much better spectacle now than 5 years ago (which is also true for AFLW, but the next 5 years will take its biggest strides forward with the significant incoming CBA changes).
 
Teen Wolf said:
And you'll remain confused as long as you look at AFLW through the irrelevant lens of the American model.

The rapid growth of league-wide sponsorship and membership, and having a highly diverse audience, justifies the AFL's investment as well as boding well for reaching their long term aspirational targets. And that's before even getting into the benefits witnessed at club level, such as...

Adelaide: Board member/football director has stated their women's program has been profitable from day one.
Brisbane: $70m+ training facility driven by women's football, men's team benefit after failing to get funding for over a decade.
Carlton: $40m+ for facility upgrades, a significant chunk of which will be used mostly by the men's team.
Collingwood: President has stated women's team was key in securing the club's biggest sponsorship deals.

...I could go on alphabetically one by one through each club. But at this point, if you don't get the gist, it's probably because you don't want to.


Might be the most out-of-touch statement anybody's made in 118 pages.

I wonder why since huge payrises in Australian women's cricket in 2017 (not just for the best 11, but right down to the bottom-half domestic players quickly going from $10k to $40k to $60k per year), towering over the investments made by other countries, the national team has basically become unbeatable.

They went from getting knocked out of World Cups by the West Indies and India (not even the traditionally strong England and New Zealand), to winning 40 of 42 ODIs and never losing a T20I series. Massive increase in audience for the WBBL in that time too.

No credible evaluation would claim the product isn't a much better spectacle now than 5 years ago (which is also true for AFLW, but the next 5 years will take its biggest strides forward with the significant incoming CBA changes).
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Its great when someone tries to turn genuine discussion into passive aggressive retorts and mixes the meaning behind a post. You seem to be under the impression I am against women being paid more. Sponsorships and investements are fantastic and I am unaware of where I negated the impact of the woman's league in this capacity in my comment. "Justifies the afl investment"- I also didn't suggest AFL retract any money to be invested. My reply was towards a revenue generation from operating comment.

Correct, the women's cricket is doing fantastic, and they arguably had a great base heading into a dominant period prior to additional funds. Improvement due to salaries is a difficult argument and one that cant be proved in either direction in such a small window. eg they won the 2013 ICC WC and the T20 2014 WC and Australia are the most successful country in women's ICC WC history. Losing a single knockout match in a tournament held every 4 years is a high bar to set for being considered unsuccessful. Cricket Australia is also not the AFL like you mention WNBA isn't (a BCG report warns of a $90m shortfall for CA and recommends some restructuring). However my point was directed at grassroots in the early stages of the league, when I was a kid I never pursued playing footy because how much money there was in it at the top, and i know the AFL puts money in but in the infancy stage of the league there can always be more.

anyways im out
 
my name was taken said:
You seem to be under the impression I am against women being paid more.
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You said "I don't know how it's justified" regarding the investment in AFLW.

Then I explained to you how it's justified.

my name was taken said:
Improvement due to salaries is a difficult argument and one that cant be proved in either direction in such a small window.
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That's what you say. Every single high-profile analyst, administrator, coach and player in sport completely disagrees.

my name was taken said:
Cricket Australia is also not the AFL
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Their investment strategies in women's sport are very similar. Neither are anything at all like the WNBA.
 
I'm not sure if I already knew this, nor if it's widely known, but worth mentioning in light of recent discussions about the naming of awards.

The design for the Grand Final BOG and Leading Goalkicker medals are based on photos taken of the same player in the same game from 2015. And this player just so "happens" to be... from Queensland! It's a Qonspiracy, I tells ya.

aflwmedals3.jpg

aflwmedals2.jpg

What is with this AFL-Double-Q bias?? And actually, make it triple, because the design for the Rising Star medal is based on the same Queenslander in a game from 2014:

aflwmedals1.jpg

So there ya go. For all the fear that Erin Phillips might tragically become a retroactive 2x Daisy Pearce Medallist, who woulda knew that she's in fact been a 2x Katie Brennan Medallist all this time. And, oddly enough, so is Darcy Vescio.

For the record, the BOG award in that 2015 game was sure enough won by Daisy Pearce. But Brennan was the leading goalkicker on the day with 4. In the 2014 game, however, KB was not even Rising Star age unlike Harris and Blackburn who were standout teenagers in that match.
 
I mean it’s got to be obvious that increasing the pay packet will lead to better players

The more they earn from footy the more capable they are to dedicate more of their time to improving their football rather than concentrating on second jobs
 

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Profop said:
Absolute shambles that none of this sorted and they want to start the season in August
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Has to be the broadcasters/sponsors/somebody?? that are pushing for an August start, otherwise why on earth have the AFL started this so late. Gil is only now overseas trying to find options for a new streaming deal which would obviously have a huge part in funding the AFLW. Just feels like someone else has to be pushing for this August start date coz how could any organisation this big be so incompetent to come up with a plan that most of the stakeholders hate and yet not be able to make it happen in a reasonable time frame.
 
FoopyNerd said:
why on earth have the AFL started this so late
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That would be where the B in CBA comes into play. Negotiations running this late benefits the AFL.

And the fact of the matter is the deal would already be done if the AFLPA accepted the league's counter offer. The players have been the far less competent party because, try as they might, there's no way to reconcile "Too much footy in the one year" with "We want 12 rounds, not 10".
 
FoopyNerd said:
Has to be the broadcasters/sponsors/somebody?? that are pushing for an August start, otherwise why on earth have the AFL started this so late. Gil is only now overseas trying to find options for a new streaming deal which would obviously have a huge part in funding the AFLW. Just feels like someone else has to be pushing for this August start date coz how could any organisation this big be so incompetent to come up with a plan that most of the stakeholders hate and yet not be able to make it happen in a reasonable time frame.
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No way the AFL is having no women’s football for 18 months, not with a women’s soccer World Cup in that timeframe and NRLW on the rise.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
le dominateur said:
No way the AFL is having no women’s football for 18 months, not with a women’s soccer World Cup in that timeframe and NRLW on the rise.
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So instead of listening to their own players and the fans to start after the men's season, the AFL are trying to piggyback off the Women's World Cup for whatever reason... sounds about right. The AFL want the start date literally the week after the World Cup Final.

Piggybacking off the Women's World Cup might be the only thing that gets AFLW some media attention and sponsors during a men's season. Maybe it might work out better for them this year, but "August starts" fail every other. Fingers crossed for the league this coming season.
 
Munga said:
So instead of listening to their own players and the fans to start after the men's season, the AFL are trying to piggyback off the Women's World Cup for whatever reason... sounds about right. The AFL want the start date literally the week after the World Cup Final.

Piggybacking off the Women's World Cup might be the only thing that gets AFLW some media attention and sponsors during a men's season. Maybe it might work out better for them this year, but "August starts" fail every other. Fingers crossed for the league this coming season.
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An August start in 2022 has absolutely nothing to do with the 2023 FIFA Women's World Cup.

And to represent the players and/or fans as if they're all campaigning for a start after the men's season is highly disingenuous. The only reason some players have spoken out against an August start is because of the quick turnaround. They'd rather have the season moved forward gradually.

Players and clubs have overwhelmingly complained about games in summer. The AFL, still wanting to have most of the women's 13+ week comp not overlap with the men's, has therefore come up with the only true compromise.
 
Teen Wolf said:
An August start in 2022 has absolutely nothing to do with the 2023 FIFA Women's World Cup.

And to represent the players and/or fans as if they're all campaigning for a start after the men's season is highly disingenuous. The only reason some players have spoken out against an August start is because of the quick turnaround. They'd rather have the season moved forward gradually.

Players and clubs have overwhelmingly complained about games in summer. The AFL, still wanting to have most of the women's 13+ week comp not overlap with the men's, has therefore come up with the only true compromise.
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Yes sorry, I meant next year re the World Cup. Cheers.

So are you saying that it's most of the players pushing to play when the men are playing? That's news to me. I thought it was the other way around with only some complaining about the summer sun (which I agree, it was mental and said so before the season even started). And I've heard one or two mention wanting to be home for the Christmas/New Year period, which is just bizarre in the world of competitive sport, but I'm happy for those to be byes. "They'd rather have the season moved forward gradually", so most of the players want MORE overlap with the men? Yikes. But I could also read that as moving 10 months forward to an October start, that'd work hahaha.

And/or is it the AFL, by wanting "most" of the season not overlapping, implying that they do want some overlap with the men? It's stupidity, but that's just my opinion. I haven't heard a single good reason for taking on the men's comp.

I've said the same thing for a few years now... I haven't been convinced by an August start (if there's a single good reason, there would be half a dozen bad ones), and haven't been unconvinced by an October start. Practically a similar season to the NTFL:

Munga said:
Start early October (30 Sept. next season at the earliest). From December to partway through February play ONLY at night where heat is a problem (matches every night if required). You can't have anyone playing in the summer sun, but the nights are fine (I do it regularly). There can be stacked night matches across Australia with matches now available each week in each timezone. Have mid-season byes for Christmas + New Year.

That's 12 rounds pre-Christmas, the remaining 5 rounds post-New Year. Add four weeks for finals, then the Grand Final would be played early March.

It's almost the same timeframe as NTFL, except they still play during the day in summer up there!

I really don't understand why they're looking at anything else other than this. Not only would the women's league be buried by the men's media in winter or during the men's finals, but the quality of the matches in winter would be much worse. The smaller and lighter footballs already get carried away in the wind, I can't wait to see it in the wet and slop of winter too. I would think that attention, advertising and sponsorships would suffer too, but that's just my own assumption. And apparently some clubs don't even share their facilities (or have the capacity to) when the men are in season, good luck to the women trying to use the gyms during pre-season and the first five weeks of their season!

Mind boggling playing in winter. There must be something else driving this change because it certainly doesn't make any logical sense.
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Munga said:
And/or is it the AFL, by wanting "most" of the season not overlapping, implying that they do want some overlap with the men? It's stupidity, but that's just my opinion. I haven't heard a single good reason for taking on the men's comp.
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The players don't want to play in summer. Unless the AFL totally ignores that, an overlap with the men's is unavoidable.

Munga said:
I haven't been convinced by an August start (if there's a single good reason, there would be half a dozen bad ones)
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Gillon McLachlan thinks there are "probably eight or 10 benefits", which would include capitalising on the following:
  • bye weekend before the AFL finals
  • more than half the men's teams have already finished their season
  • no AFL matches on Sundays in September
  • first ~6 weeks of the season at top venues with only a handful of AFL games to schedule around
  • public holiday before the grand final
  • play through October and November, the quietest months on the Aus sporting calendar
  • finals in December, easier to avoid hot weather
  • finish before Christmas/New Years--not a player-driven initiative, it's what the whole industry wants
 
Yeah I think the move to August is mainly supported by the players they’re just upset that it got sprung on them so quickly

Understandable seeing they all need to take time off their day jobs to play and that’s not much time to organise all the time off they’ll need
 
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