AFL State of Origin - time to bring it back?

[bzparkes]

AFL SOO is just an absolute wankfest for the Vic media to jerk themselves off to the 'Big V' over.

It can **** right off.

 

[PhatBoy]

Wednesday night even as a lifelong rugby league fan was one of the highest quality and most intense games I’ve ever watched. Even as a Queensland fan I was kind of disappointed in the try at the end as it probably made the margin less reflective of the quality of the contest. Physical, angry, clinical, aggressive, skilful, gutsy - it was outstanding.

I don’t think you can manufacture that with afl. The edge of your seat nature of a good AFL game is different, it doesn’t come from anger and passion it comes from that fine line between success and failure when a marginally missed target with a kick can cost you a game or when a player in open space gets thwarted like the Castagna incident last weekend.

You don’t require a state rivalry or a ‘best of the best’ clash of line ups to create those sorts of games they just happen and the players at the lower end play their role in that.

 

[Kwality]

Who cares about their pathetic state rivalry.

Brain-dead game for brain dead fans.

The AFL because truck loads of dollars are driving past the door.

 

[iameviljez]

The AFL because truck loads of dollars are driving past the door.

I feel like… when people make these arguments, they forget that SOO died from a lack of interest, both public and player.

There isn’t much money in a one off game with 45k spectators.

 

[Kwality]

Wednesday night even as a lifelong rugby league fan was one of the highest quality and most intense games I’ve ever watched. Even as a Queensland fan I was kind of disappointed in the try at the end as it probably made the margin less reflective of the quality of the contest. Physical, angry, clinical, aggressive, skilful, gutsy - it was outstanding.

I don’t think you can manufacture that with afl. The edge of your seat nature of a good AFL game is different, it doesn’t come from anger and passion it comes from that fine line between success and failure when a marginally missed target with a kick can cost you a game or when a player in open space gets thwarted like the Castagna incident last weekend.

You don’t require a state rivalry or a ‘best of the best’ clash of line ups to create those sorts of games they just happen and the players at the lower end play their role in that.

The problem is the great H&A games are rare because its not the best v best that delivers that contest. Players ego to succeed in Origin.

 

[Macca180]

As stated above..
State of Origin is the biggest/most important thing in RL.
Winning the Grand Final/Premierships is the biggest/most important thing in AFL. No player is going to risk jeopardising the premiership with injury in a state of origin game in AFL.

 

[Kwality]

I feel like… when people make these arguments, they forget that SOO died from a lack of interest, both public and player.

There isn’t much money in a one off game with 45k spectators.

See the TV money.

Origin died in the 90s, this is a different time. As I've said, only the players can deliver Origin.

 

[PhatBoy]

SOO in rugby league is based on a mutual hatred between the teams and fans even if it only exists for a week around each of the three games.

There are other hatreds in league but much less intense than the afl - the roosters and bunnies are the last two sets of teams who genuinely hate each other. Everyone who’s not a Parra fan loves taking the piss out of their inability to win anything since 1986, the running joke is that everyone hates Manly but really it’s fairly good natured, and even the local derbies like Penrith and Parra, Cronulla and St George, Wests and Parra to some degree, and the Queensland rivalry of Brisbane and the Cowboys - they don’t have the intense dislike that the AFL rivalries do.

That’s what origin subsists on.

AFL already has that with the Adelaide and Perth rivalries, the big four club rivalries, Geelong and Hawthorn, even the mutual fan dislike between Geelong and Richmond even if the two sets of supporters don’t necessarily care that much about the other team itself. I don’t think those feelings could be replicated at a state level in afl

 

[Macca180]

Wednesday night even as a lifelong rugby league fan was one of the highest quality and most intense games I’ve ever watched. Even as a Queensland fan I was kind of disappointed in the try at the end as it probably made the margin less reflective of the quality of the contest. Physical, angry, clinical, aggressive, skilful, gutsy - it was outstanding.

I don’t think you can manufacture that with afl. The edge of your seat nature of a good AFL game is different, it doesn’t come from anger and passion it comes from that fine line between success and failure when a marginally missed target with a kick can cost you a game or when a player in open space gets thwarted like the Castagna incident last weekend.

You don’t require a state rivalry or a ‘best of the best’ clash of line ups to create those sorts of games they just happen and the players at the lower end play their role in that.

Yeah, not now in AFL. But up until about 1990 it was certainly that way.

 

[kreuze_missile]

Imagine the NBA all-star game - but half the good players don't turn up and the ones that do only shoot lay ups.

That's your modern AFL state of origin.

Hard pass

 

[Jibroni]

I think having a tournament/carinval every 2 years would have some merit. Reduce the H & A season to 20 weeks to accommodate for origin games.

 

[kreuze_missile]

I think having a tournament/carinval every 2 years would have some merit. Reduce the H & A season to 20 weeks to accommodate for origin games.

17 weeks*

Extended finals series

+ some exhibition crap that keeps c7 $ coming in

 

[iameviljez]

See the TV money.

Origin died in the 90s, this is a different time. As I've said, only the players can deliver Origin.

Yeah but if the crowds can’t be arsed turning up, that seems to suggest they won’t be arsed watching either.

FWIW, the factors that killed SOO haven’t gone away. If anything, they have become stronger.

 

[PhatBoy]

Imagine the NBA all-star game - but half the good players don't turn up and the ones that do only shoot lay ups.

That's your modern AFL state of origin.

Hard pass

Exactly. Even one team can make state of origin what it is in league - like it or not, origin is about Queensland and Gordon Tallis made a very good observation last night for someone who can come across as being very dim:

For 80 years league fans and players in Queensland had nothing to aspire to. They played in what was clearly an inferior competition to the one in Sydney, so they didn’t have that inherent allegiance to a particular jersey from the time they were kids and discovering the sport unlike kids in nsw who had a club to throw themselves behind. Then origin came along and suddenly all those footy fans and aspiring young players had something to cling to and it was 8 years before Brisbane came along and the Gold Coast - the latter of which was an on and off basket case until the cowboys arrived in 95. Even now the very widely distributed population of Queensland still only has three teams to look to, (soon to be four) across a huge state and a growing population base. So playing for Queensland became the number one driving force for every player for the first decade of origin and that has fed into the generations since.

Adelaide and Perth have got their two clubs each and most people in those states have aligned with one of those clubs and for whatever reason, those teams have United millions of fans each and that’s what kids in those states aspire to, that’s what fans look towards. The recruiting and drafting processes in afl lend themselves much more to the tribalism of club footy: in league that’s not the case. As a profession you go and trial wherever you can, if there’s a spot at Canberra you aim for that, if there’s a spot at the warriors you aim for that. Yes Queensland fans still love club footy and their youth aspire to play it but the ultimate goal is to ‘pull on the maroon jersey and stick it up the Blues.’ Circumstances gave birth to that attitude, it’s not something you can just manufacture by creating a ‘new origin’ concept and I think the afl would be setting itself up for failure if they tried to

 

[Bjo187]

Oh come on there is no way that NSW or QLD would have better talent than a top AFL team.

Let's take NSW as an example, they have over 50 players in the AFL (more than an AFL list). Their team would include about 5 current and former club captain's. Witts, walker, rampe, mills, steele (inc ACT).

Then you add guys like Hawkins, heeney, bruest, Smith who all still rank highly in champion data points and the fact is, yes they rank higher than the current premiership team points wise.

 

[Bjo187]

It died because players wouldn’t play it.

Unless they’re willing to do it and do it seriously, it’d just be a farce.

That's why you offer the players a bigger peice of the financial pie than usual, make it 50 percent. Then they are invested in also growing the concept each year for a bigger payday.

Looking at some rough numbers, west coast make around 40 million per year off games, so 11 home games that's 4 mill per game, Essendon around 3 million per year when accounting for memberships and ticket sales for 11 home games. The tv networks value a game at about 2 mill each (if you go off fox paying the NRL 20 mill for team 17 and 11 home games added to the season).

Offer the players 50 percent of revenue from representative games. So let's say SOO AFL brings in 15 mill per season across the 3 games - Vic metro v country, s.a v w.a, nsw v qld (best case). Across 25 players for each team it's 100k per player. Let's halve that to allow for worse case scenario and spend costs, players will get minimum 50k for playing one game extra, in their back pocket.

I would actually get the two states competing to agree on a scenario where winner takes all, or say winner gets 60 or 70 percent of the playing salaries. I reckon you'd see the intensity go up big time, you might even see some biff brought back. The other thing is the AFL couldn't come in being do gooders on harsh suspensions or misdemeanors during origin games, as it deters players from playing.

It's pretty simple, basically you incentivise playing (big payday, what they put in they get out of the success of SOO) and disincentivise not playing (any player selected that pulls out must also miss the following weeks h & a game). You also put the split round byes a few weeks post origin so the top players get a rest too.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

That's why you offer the players a bigger peice of the financial pie than usual, make it 50 percent. Then they are invested in also growing the concept each year for a bigger payday.

Looking at some rough numbers, west coast make around 40 million per year off games, so 11 home games that's 4 mill per game, Essendon around 3 million per year when accounting for memberships and ticket sales for 11 home games. The tv networks value a game at about 2 mill each (if you go off fox paying the NRL 20 mill for team 17 and 11 home games added to the season).

Offer the players 50 percent of revenue from representative games. So let's say SOO AFL brings in 15 mill per season across the 3 games - Vic metro v country, s.a v w.a, nsw v qld (best case). Across 25 players for each team it's 100k per player. Let's halve that to allow for worse case scenario and spend costs, players will get minimum 50k for playing one game extra, in their back pocket.

I would actually get the two states competing to agree on a scenario where winner takes all, or say winner gets 60 or 70 percent of the playing salaries. I reckon you'd see the intensity go up big time, you might even see some biff brought back. The other thing is the AFL couldn't come in being do gooders on harsh suspensions or misdemeanors during origin games, as it deters players from playing.

It's pretty simple, basically you incentivise playing (big payday, what they put in they get out of the success of SOO) and disincentivise not playing (any player selected that pulls out must also miss the following weeks h & a game). You also put the split round byes a few weeks post origin so the top players get a rest too.

It's still a bit hard. Pay them for showing up and you'll just get an NBA All Star-game farce. Except it'd be even worse, because it's a full contact sport, so it'd be like watching a training warm-up. It'd be an insult to the viewers.

Pay only the winners and you disincentivise them from playing as they might not get anything. Especially if the selected squads are one-sided, the underdog team's players probably don't bother.

It's very, very hard to manufacture passion with money. Very hard.

We can certainly give it a go but I'm very sceptical.

It works in League as the two-team/state rivalry is so massive. The whole sport revolves around those two states and all the best players are either one or the other, so it's basically an all-star game too. In our game it's diluted because you have Vic, SA, WA and Tas to a lesser extent. There's no enormous 1v1 rivalry and hatred to really sustain it.

 

[Kwality]

Yeah but if the crowds can’t be arsed turning up, that seems to suggest they won’t be arsed watching either.

FWIW, the factors that killed SOO haven’t gone away. If anything, they have become stronger.

Obviously we disagree.

 

[PhatBoy]

It's still a bit hard. Pay them for showing up and you'll just get an NBA All Star-game farce. Except it'd be even worse, because it's a full contact sport, so it'd be like watching a training warm-up. It'd be an insult to the viewers.

Pay only the winners and you disincentivise them from playing as they might not get anything. Especially if the selected squads are one-sided, the underdog team's players probably don't bother.

It's very, very hard to manufacture passion with money. Very hard.

We can certainly give it a go but I'm very sceptical.

It works in League as the two-team/state rivalry is so massive. The whole sport revolves around those two states and all the best players are either one or the other, so it's basically an all-star game too. In our game it's diluted because you have Vic, SA, WA and Tas to a lesser extent. There's no enormous 1v1 rivalry and hatred to really sustain it.

Also I would argue that the acceptance level of injury is higher in League.

Fans know because it has been part of the fabric of the code for 40 years that if their players get selected for Origin they are at risk of injury that will restrict their club football. It’s an accepted part of the game. Fortunately in my time watching SOO I can’t recall TOO many serious injuries that have completely wrecked a club’s season.

But imagine in one of their flag years if Martin had have done an ACL in a rep game and how tigers fans would have reacted.

Imagine if a Dan Menzel had 4 knee reconstructions, played a year of great footy then did it again in an origin game.

The fans would be nowhere near as sympathetic or accepting of the concept as what nrl fans are

 

[Bjo187]

Also I would argue that the acceptance level of injury is higher in League.

Fans know because it has been part of the fabric of the code for 40 years that if their players get selected for Origin they are at risk of injury that will restrict their club football. It’s an accepted part of the game. Fortunately in my time watching SOO I can’t recall TOO many serious injuries that have completely wrecked a club’s season.

But imagine in one of their flag years if Martin had have done an ACL in a rep game and how tigers fans would have reacted.

Imagine if a Dan Menzel had 4 knee reconstructions, played a year of great footy then did it again in an origin game.

The fans would be nowhere near as sympathetic or accepting of the concept as what nrl fans are

That mindset is a bunch of bs though, with the Essendon injury reports I reckon more players get injured during weekly training than during games these days. If it didn't happen during SOO it could have happened the week after, or, on the training track anyway. The players/ clubs need to harden up and realise they are paid to play games of football, that's what supports the industry and everyone gets paid.

Also Bunk Moreland, the argument there is no rivalry is the same as saying there would be no rivalry between the giants and suns before they entered the competition. Rivalry is built over time and previous encounters, as well as state by state bragging rights, you have to actually try and give it a go to let the formula build up over time. I also think Vic country will be like a Queensland with their level of pride and passion and we all know how patriotic w.a and s.a are.

 

[StevenwellerHFC]

I'm 110% for it, bring it back already.

 

[Kram]

 

[Woolly Mammoth]

Wednesday night even as a lifelong rugby league fan was one of the highest quality and most intense games I’ve ever watched. Even as a Queensland fan I was kind of disappointed in the try at the end as it probably made the margin less reflective of the quality of the contest. Physical, angry, clinical, aggressive, skilful, gutsy - it was outstanding.

I don’t think you can manufacture that with afl. The edge of your seat nature of a good AFL game is different, it doesn’t come from anger and passion it comes from that fine line between success and failure when a marginally missed target with a kick can cost you a game or when a player in open space gets thwarted like the Castagna incident last weekend.

You don’t require a state rivalry or a ‘best of the best’ clash of line ups to create those sorts of games they just happen and the players at the lower end play their role in that.

Agreed, as a very casual Rugby fan, I could never maintain sustained interest in the actual NRL comp, but always like to watch SOO every year, and game 3 was just off the f***ing chain , a hollywood scriptwriter couldn't have done a better job. Zero chance the AFL could manufacture anything close to that even if they were able to force the biggest names to play in it, the league might actually look pretty silly if they tried and imagine if they derail a few player's seasons with injuries in a failed experiment.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I think having a tournament/carinval every 2 years would have some merit. Reduce the H & A season to 20 weeks to accommodate for origin games.

There is no way the AFL, or the clubs, would go for a shorter season. A couple of Origin games won't make up two rounds of the AFL season.
Unfortunately, the AFL is much more focussed on profits (despite being a non-profit) over the sport of Australian Football it is supposedly custodian of.

Its close enough to zero chance no matter what, but the tiniest hope only exists in post-season in the International Rules timeslot. And even then clubs would claim players needed to be sent off surgery.
If it was only once every four years or something players might be, and perhaps remain, keen to play. An opportunity that only occurs 2-4 times in a career might not get tired.

 

[Kwality]

A couple of Origin games won't make up two rounds of the AFL season.

An Origin game is the equivalent of another Grand Final in the advertising world.