Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[glenashley]

Payne going ok for lions.

 

[dergert]

Payne going ok for lions.

I think that ship has sailed unfortunately

 

[willofwest]

I think that ship has sailed unfortunately

Maybe lions need points for father sons this year. Could we trade Paine for picks ?

 

[dergert]

Maybe lions need points for father sons this year. Could we trade Paine for picks ?

Surely they wouldn't entertain it with Marcus Adams' being a tampon .

 

[Smiley Boy]

I have stayed in my job despite being offered roughly 50% more elsewhere. And that was without thousands of little kids idolising me or the opportunities being an AFL player offers you. So maybe not everyone is money motivated or I'm just a sucker for being loyal.

Wish Dunkley or anyone else in pursuit of greater remuneration well but don't give them an out or excuse their actions as one everyone would take.

How noble of you

Loyalty means f all in sport these guys have short careers and want to set themselves up for life after footy

Not all players are Chris Grant and will stay for 40c and a letter…some people just need to get over it and move on if he leaves as we’ll be compensated fairly

We’re not losing Bont, Naughton, Macrae or Libba we’ll get over it

 

[immortalmike]

I don’t understand why they are irrelevant in today’s environment? Why can’t players see their club as purely an employer? They don’t get to choose who drafts them unless they are a father son or they game they system somehow (Bailey Smith I’m looking at you son!). Just because we have loyalty to the dogs doesn’t mean our players always do? We are also very quick to turn on individuals that may no longer “suit” (Luke Beverage I’m talking about you!) even though technically he has been a major part of bringing us everything any of us have ever asked for.

I think a pure corporate analogy is extremely apt and I think people are absolutely entitled to use it.

Because in a corporate environment you don't have thousands of adoring children looking up to you.

It it a privilege to make a living kicking a ball around a park and with that comes a certain sacrifice. It isn't like any other job. And it is what it is.

That we have supporters who give a club that gives them pretty much nothing in return money each year (I'm not talking memberships I'm talking donations and sponsorships) for no logical reason means it's just not a normal or comparable workplace.

What you say about aspects of toxic fandom is true but also not helping your corporate analogy either.

Argue on the merits of players being calculated if you must but leave the tired metaphor behind.

 

[immortalmike]

How noble of you

Loyalty means f all in sport these guys have short careers and want to set themselves up for life after footy

Not all players are Chris Grant and will stay for 40c and a letter…

And the sport is poorer in my opinion for it. I genuinely hope that we don't see our club come to its demise one day because of it also.

 

[Deadly Darcy]

Because in a corporate environment you don't have thousands of adoring children looking up to you.

It it a privilege to make a living kicking a ball around a park and with that comes a certain sacrifice. It isn't like any other job. And it is what it is.

That we have supporters who give a club that gives them pretty much nothing in return money each year (I'm not talking memberships I'm talking donations and sponsorships) for no logical reason means it's just not a normal or comparable workplace.

What you say about aspects of toxic fandom is true but also not helping your corporate analogy either.

Argue on the merits of players being calculated if you must but leave the tired metaphor behind.

All of these arguments underpin the rational of the metaphor. The argument that players, once drafted and employed by individual clubs, should consider the children who support, the privilege associated and ‘supporters being owed’ by those clubs, may be relevant for some players (thank god for Bontempelli) but not for others.

The AFL players association have made it abundantly clear in their negociations that player choice of movement between clubs has to be a right absolutely because they are employees. They argue that any employee of any business in the corporate world has that right. Indeed they’ve threatened to test that right, and try to prove and found a legal precedent, on multiple occasions. The AFL has backed down each time to avoid that because the AFL house would lose that argument. And if they lost the argument, the concept of the draft and other equalisation measures would fall from the wayside and Collingwood or Essendon would win another 16 flags etc etc.

Its therefore a corporate business. Some players will stay out of goodwill but the corporate analogy (although you may not like it and it takes away some of the beautiful parts of the AFL) is absolutely correct. We are just lucky that many players do believe in paying it back like Bailey Smith just confirmed he incorporated into his own decision to re-sign. I don’t like the fact that it’s corporate and cutthroat either and I hate losing players (particularly to Essendon - I’ll be massively pissed off if Dunkley nominates them as we will be screwed) but the corporate analogy is he only one to use because it’s absolutely how the Dunkley types view their decisions in this space.

 

[immortalmike]

All of these arguments underpin the rational of the metaphor. The argument that players, once drafted and employed by individual clubs, should consider the children who support, the privilege associated and ‘supporters being owed’ by those clubs, may be relevant for some players (thank god for Bontempelli) but not for others.

The AFL players association have made it abundantly clear in their negociations that player choice of movement between clubs has to be a right absolutely because they are employees. They argue that any employee of any business in the corporate world has that right. Indeed they’ve threatened to test that right, and try to prove and found a legal precedent, on multiple occasions. The AFL has backed down each time to avoid that because the AFL house would lose that argument. And if they lost the argument, the concept of the draft and other equalisation measures would fall from the wayside and Collingwood or Essendon would win another 16 flags etc etc.

Its therefore a corporate business. Some players will stay out of goodwill but the corporate analogy (although you may not like it and it takes away some of the beautiful parts of the AFL) is absolutely correct. We are just lucky that many players do believe in paying it back like Bailey Smith just confirmed he incorporated into his own decision to re-sign. I don’t like the fact that it’s corporate and cutthroat either and I hate losing players (particularly to Essendon - I’ll be massively pissed off if Dunkley nominates them as we will be screwed) but the corporate analogy is he only one to use because it’s absolutely how the Dunkley types view their decisions in this space.

I could not disagree with you more but feel that this has already got off topic enough.

Suffice to say whilst the AFL is of course a corporation (nobody argued otherwise) it is an extremely irregular/unique profession that isn't comparable to your Joe six-pack 5 day a week job. The whole shebang works on irrationality and emotions, that some players see it as a cold corporate decision is to the games' detriment and that some supporters seem to be okay with giving them illogical outs (like the examples being used) also not only short-sighted but also kind of sad to me.

Long story short Dunkley and his ilk is well within their rights to see it as the same as working any other job for any other corporation. That doesn’t mean that's what he actually does and that we as supporters should be okay with the game becoming that way.

 

[BWFC]

Player chooses more money and walks out on a club. People defend him say its a business and just a job.'
Supporters criticize a clubs poor performance and they cop abuse they're not loyal supporters.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Surely they wouldn't entertain it with Marcus Adams' being a tampon .

He's stuck up?
He's absorbent?
He can still frolick on the beach during his period?

I don't get it?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

What the hell are these guys eating these days?

Remember when Will Minson ran the Big Men’s Eating Club? All the big guys at the club would regularly go out together for a steak dinner. I wonder if the club dietitian would allow that now.

 

[chop0205]

He's stuck up?
He's absorbent?
He can still frolick on the beach during his period?

I don't get it?

Frequently out for 3 weeks

 

[Munnez]

What the hell are these guys eating these days?

Growth Hormone don't tell anyone

 

[HK_Bulldog]

Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

 

[Del165892]

Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

...don't give way to hating.

 

[Just Watching]

For context, I have significant background in professional sports acquisitions and back of house operational roles within sporting codes as well as a limited amount of sports management background, albeit I no longer work in any of these roles now.

I can tell you that they (clubs) are all operated as a business and the players are seen as employees just as any company sees their own employees in any other professional sense.

Yes, it’s a hard comparison because of the salary discrepancy but a regular job doesn’t have a time bomb attached to it. 3 years is what an average player gets on a list. That’s a short life span. 12 years if you’re really *ing good. In a regualr business, you don’t get fired for being over 30. In this business, the AFL, you do.

If Dunks chooses to move for a 20% payrise and a more favourable role that suits his skill set, let the bloke do it. He has 5-7 years left in the game to maximise his income and earning potential. He owes the club nothing. Literally nothing. He’s fulfilled his current contractual obligations. You can be salty he asked out of his current contract a few years ago but in reality, he saw it through and no harm was done.

Supporters need to grow up and realise you support a team. The loyalty is with THE TEAM. You get attached to players but they’re employees and they move on like other employees in other companies and other codes.

Look at the NBA for a more developed sense of supporter base. They either support the franchise as a whole or you follow your favourite players around the league as they maximise their earning potential In an incredibly short window. You get an occasional player whom stays completely loyal to his franchise, like a Tim Duncan, but it’s the exception to the rule.

I think the barstardisation of sports is what people don't like. Resisting an NBA model of player empowerment and big clubs monopolising stars is a rational thought process, as is likening clubs to everyday business.

A real slippery slope to fully encourage player empowerment, just as it is to encourage full club empowerment, just ask the NBA, who have all sorts of issues at the moment.

Striking a balance is important and you know you have the balance right when some stay for loyalty and some leave for cash.

 

[ScottyDogg]

Can someone bring me up to speed on the Barrass chat, I have seen a couple references, is there anything to this or just throwing names around?

 

[Testekill]

Can someone bring me up to speed on the Barrass chat, I have seen a couple references, is there anything to this or just throwing names around?

Just someone with mail saying that we're having a red hot crack at Barrass in order to pick up a really good defender long term.

 

[immortalmike]

...don't give way to hating.

"Hate, hate, hate!"- Silky Johnson 'Player Hater of The Year 2002'.

 

[immortalmike]

He's stuck up?
He's absorbent?
He can still frolick on the beach during his period?

I don't get it?

In one week out for three.
It's an injury reference.

 

[Next Waiting]

I think the barstardisation of sports is what people don't like. Resisting an NBA model of player empowerment and big clubs monopolising stars is a rational thought process, as is likening clubs to everyday business.

A real slippery slope to fully encourage player empowerment, just as it is to encourage full club empowerment, just ask the NBA, who have all sorts of issues at the moment.

Striking a balance is important and you know you have the balance right when some stay for loyalty and some leave for cash.

That's fair.

Sport has progressed from amateur to shamateur to professional. We all still love the game but the people playing it at the highest have evolved into employees in a profession that lasts 3 years on average.

In all professions, some stay because they like and/or are comfortable in the environment they're in (even for less money sometimes) and/or want a one company career whilst others like a new challenge, new experiences, new people, a change of scenery, variety in their environment and/or more money.

It's a unique work environment no doubt, but a work environment it is. The balance between the AFL/clubs' power and the players' power is the critical one as you suggest. We're doing OK.

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

That's assuming Bruce plays beyond next year, let alone all of next year.
I fear he's cooked so Lobb, Naughton and JUH is a solid KPF trio with Darcy developing down back (and Darcy may only play a handful of games next year).

2024-25 Darcy should be aiming to play regular football and we're not even sure he'll be a forward by that stage. Lobb's final year might just be the perfect time for Darcy to transition from defence to forward.

That's how I see our tall forwards next year Naughton, JUH, Lobb, unless Bruce has a ripping preseason and preseason game then who knows.

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

I thought it was 3?
I'm far more concerned at Jones' 3 year deal as a 32 year old after 12+ months out of the game

Jones from what I'm leading to believe has not had much injuries and is going to come back in ripping shape and its 2 years with an option for a third.

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

A few of the doubters may be a bit more receptive to my mail now haha

Not saying everything ends up happening

Bulldogs sound out former Giants coach

The Dogs are showing interest.

www.sen.com.au

Yeah I wrote about we SHOULD sound him out as an assistant a while ago, then I seen you post your info about 10 or so days later, I had no info on it, just thought we should.