Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Mofra]

True, difference being that Cordy and probably O'Brien are known quantities in that we wouldn't expect either to really improve from what they already offer.

Isn't that what coaches prefer? A known quantity rather than a maybe. Clarkson in particular seemed big on that.

 

[Mofra]

You want to play silly hypotheticals?
You get brought into a company, you are taken under the wing by the CEO, he shows confidence in you to put you on a team that is taking on a big project, and the project is a massive success.
You take a lot of time off sick leave yet whenever you come back the CEO puts you straight back into the team working on the big project, but the project suffers because you aren't performing at your best.
Then the other members of your team vote to make you one of the leaders on the project.
Then you demand to leave the business for another business despite being under contract and despite being a lead on the project.
The CEO refuses and you make an excuse that it was because you were sad because of covid and he really likes working for the company.
Now you go to lunch with the new guy who was kicked out his company.
You get sick again but the CEO keeps putting you on the big project and you aren't performing well. You are carried by the rest of your team to the end of the project but you were so bad the other team members couldn't finish the project.
The company offers you another contract, great money for many years, despite you having serious limitations to your abilities. You are great at one or two things but suck at most other things, but the CEO love you.
When your contract runs out, will you leave for a bit more money and a slightly nicer view or will you show loyalty to the guy who made you?

What actually makes a football club and makes them worth supporting?
Who would Chris Grant be to you if he left for Port Adelaide for double the money?
What’s the difference between 600k and 700k? Bugger all when you understand how money works and you can turn it into as much as you want. It’s also bugger all when you are Josh Dunkley and when other players are congratulating their team mates on milestones on instagram, he’s flogging his free haircuts, ready made meals and dozens of other endorsements.

* Josh Dunkley. Beveridge showed confidence in him as a first year player with serious limitations to play roles in a team that won us a premiership. He’s been seriously injured more than once and Beveridge has shown confidence in Dunkley to bring him straight back into the team, to the detriment of the team. Players showed confidence in him as a 5th year player to make him part of the leadership group, only 6 months later for him to have a sook and demand a trade to a club down the road with 2 years left on his contract. Him sooking resorted to the Dogs going to a captain-vice captain setup in 2021 with no additional players in the leadership group to avoid the embarrassment of removing this clown from it. Now, he sits on the outside of group huddles, holding his new best buddy’s hand. He tried to set the narrative after the failed trade, saying it was because of covid and isolation... yet here we are.

On the flip side - if rumours are to be believed, we're chasing Barrass only 12 months after he signed a big money, long term deal until 2024 or 2025.
There is a human element to AFL but it is a brutal industry. Dunkley may make us all uncomfortable but that's the new reality

 

[Dale4captain]

In the real world, what would the rate be for employees who turn down a 20% pay rise to move companies? Probably almost zero you’d say?

And what would the rate be in the AFL? It would be pretty high I reckon? You don’t see many players move on, particularly the well paid ones.

Does this give you some idea why the comparison doesn’t work?

For context, I have significant background in professional sports acquisitions and back of house operational roles within sporting codes as well as a limited amount of sports management background, albeit I no longer work in any of these roles now.

I can tell you that they (clubs) are all operated as a business and the players are seen as employees just as any company sees their own employees in any other professional sense.

Yes, it’s a hard comparison because of the salary discrepancy but a regular job doesn’t have a time bomb attached to it. 3 years is what an average player gets on a list. That’s a short life span. 12 years if you’re really flipping good. In a regualr business, you don’t get fired for being over 30. In this business, the AFL, you do.

If Dunks chooses to move for a 20% payrise and a more favourable role that suits his skill set, let the bloke do it. He has 5-7 years left in the game to maximise his income and earning potential. He owes the club nothing. Literally nothing. He’s fulfilled his current contractual obligations. You can be salty he asked out of his current contract a few years ago but in reality, he saw it through and no harm was done.

Supporters need to grow up and realise you support a team. The loyalty is with THE TEAM. You get attached to players but they’re employees and they move on like other employees in other companies and other codes.

Look at the NBA for a more developed sense of supporter base. They either support the franchise as a whole or you follow your favourite players around the league as they maximise their earning potential In an incredibly short window. You get an occasional player whom stays completely loyal to his franchise, like a Tim Duncan, but it’s the exception to the rule.

 

[Dog 36]

For context, I have significant background in professional sports acquisitions and back of house operational roles within sporting codes as well as a limited amount of sports management background, albeit I no longer work in any of these roles now.

I can tell you that they (clubs) are all operated as a business and the players are seen as employees just as any company sees their own employees in any other professional sense.

Yes, it’s a hard comparison because of the salary discrepancy but a regular job doesn’t have a time bomb attached to it. 3 years is what an average player gets on a list. That’s a short life span. 12 years if you’re really *ing good. In a regualr business, you don’t get fired for being over 30. In this business, the AFL, you do.

If Dunks chooses to move for a 20% payrise and a more favourable role that suits his skill set, let the bloke do it. He has 5-7 years left in the game to maximise his income and earning potential. He owes the club nothing. Literally nothing. He’s fulfilled his current contractual obligations. You can be salty he asked out of his current contract a few years ago but in reality, he saw it through and no harm was done.

Supporters need to grow up and realise you support a team. The loyalty is with THE TEAM. You get attached to players but they’re employees and they move on like other employees in other companies and other codes.

Look at the NBA for a more developed sense of supporter base. They either support the franchise as a whole or you follow your favourite players around the league as they maximise their earning potential In an incredibly short window. You get an occasional player whom stays completely loyal to his franchise, like a Tim Duncan, but it’s the exception to the rule.

Cannot argue with that but if a player moves don't hide behind culture, different role, and I am happy here but the fact is you are not happy etc etc say it as it is I got more money and/or I will be the man in their midfield and not be in the shadows of others.

 

[Bald]

Cannot argue with that but if a player moves don't hide behind culture, different role, and I am happy here but the fact is you are not happy etc etc say it as it is I got more money and/or I will be the man in their midfield and not be in the shadows of others.

It’s also possible to be happy somewhere but happier elsewhere.

 

[Dog 36]

It’s also possible to be happy somewhere but happier elsewhere.

Probably a better word is content but you are right.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

If Dunkley re-signs for two years, will all be forgiven? Or will we just be postponing the inevitable until he becomes an FA?

 

[immortalmike]

Wait, so let’s get this right.

Hypothetically:

The company you have been working for for the last 7 years offers to renew yoir contract. Similar rates as what you’re currently on, you don’t mind the company, you’ve had good years, you’ve had bad years. You don’t always get on with your boss and you’ve had friction with some of your colleagues but the place is pretty good if not mildly stale in its approach to business.

A second company comes along. Offers you a 20% raise. It’s in another city. Similar longevity in contract and promises you the corner office space you’ve wanted for a few years. You don’t know the folks you’ll be working with but you get told that you’ll lead your division and have some genuine say and direction in how it operates.

You’d stick with the original company?

Answer honestly.

For the 108th thousand time. These examples are completely irrelevant when it comes to playing elite sport. They are not the same thing. Will people stop using these examples.

 

[Dale4captain]

Cannot argue with that but if a player moves don't hide behind culture, different role, and I am happy here but the fact is you are not happy etc etc say it as it is I got more money and/or I will be the man in their midfield and not be in the shadows of others.

Why not thought? Josh was a 190cm inside midfielder whom at the time of his trade request, was being played as a ruck/half forward. Further, he was filthy with the attitudes of several of his teammates and the less than professional attitude they had toward their careers.

Why does he have to justify it at all to the public? It’s not a mandatory element of an AFL players contract to disclose personal decisions to all and sundry.

 

[Dog 36]

Why not thought? Josh was a 190cm inside midfielder whom at the time of his trade request, was being played as a ruck/half forward. Further, he was filthy with the attitudes of several of his teammates and the less than professional attitude they had toward their careers.

Why does he have to justify it at all to the public? It’s not a mandatory element of an AFL players contract to disclose personal decisions to all and sundry.

He does not have to justify anything but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it is most probably a duck.

He can tell us about his teammates attitudes and the less than professional attitude and throw the club under the bus to put the spotlight on them when the underlying issue is something else.

Teammates attitudes and professional attitude and you choose Bumbers ?

 

[doggies ftw]

For context, I have significant background in professional sports acquisitions and back of house operational roles within sporting codes as well as a limited amount of sports management background, albeit I no longer work in any of these roles now.

I can tell you that they (clubs) are all operated as a business and the players are seen as employees just as any company sees their own employees in any other professional sense.

Yes, it’s a hard comparison because of the salary discrepancy but a regular job doesn’t have a time bomb attached to it. 3 years is what an average player gets on a list. That’s a short life span. 12 years if you’re really *ing good. In a regualr business, you don’t get fired for being over 30. In this business, the AFL, you do.

If Dunks chooses to move for a 20% payrise and a more favourable role that suits his skill set, let the bloke do it. He has 5-7 years left in the game to maximise his income and earning potential. He owes the club nothing. Literally nothing. He’s fulfilled his current contractual obligations. You can be salty he asked out of his current contract a few years ago but in reality, he saw it through and no harm was done.

Supporters need to grow up and realise you support a team. The loyalty is with THE TEAM. You get attached to players but they’re employees and they move on like other employees in other companies and other codes.

Look at the NBA for a more developed sense of supporter base. They either support the franchise as a whole or you follow your favourite players around the league as they maximise their earning potential In an incredibly short window. You get an occasional player whom stays completely loyal to his franchise, like a Tim Duncan, but it’s the exception to the rule.

I understand what you’re saying but geez if that’s what you want good for you - personally I like the fabric of AFL staying in tact, not the absolute cesspit of player movement that is international sports.

No one has to grow up, we love footy and that includes our team and our players. No I don’t condone messaging the players on IG or any bullshit like that but if a few no bodies vent on Bigfooty ffs who gives a ****.

You might see the NBA model as ‘more developed’ and maybe see yourself as more mature due to having that opinion. Brilliant for you mate, I see it as aids and not something I support or give two ****s about.

Neither of our opinions are wrong though

 

[Anja_Nees]

I think Dunks has learnt to drive a hard bargain, probably from his dad. He can’t very well talk enthusiastically about his future at the club when their is a stalemate on the negotiations. I am confident that a compromise will be reached and he will stay.

If you look at Port, it will be an upheaval to move. The coach is not popular and likely to get the chop over the next 12 months and they are an unbalanced side that only plays well at home, as long as it is not a final. Not a tantalising prospect.

Essendon, hung him and his brother out to dry two years ago. Same situation with the coach, they look miles off it, and the supporters have become very abusive to the players. It is a bigger club, and it is in Melbourne, but the negatives outweighs the positives.

Negatives for the dogs is a crazy but successful coach, good team mates Adz, Bont etc. A game plan that even the players can see is shite, young elite talent coming through. Hopefully the good outweigh the negative.

Have heard some less than ideal things about the way Dunks Snr can be with these matters, and he didn’t exactly end up on great terms with Sydney.

 

[Dale4captain]

I understand what you’re saying but geez if that’s what you want good for you - personally I like the fabric of AFL staying in tact, not the absolute cesspit of player movement that is international sports.

No one has to grow up, we love footy and that includes our team and our players. No I don’t condone messaging the players on IG or any bullshit like that but if a few no bodies vent on Bigfooty ffs who gives a *.

You might see the NBA model as ‘more developed’ and maybe see yourself as more mature due to having that opinion. Brilliant for you mate, I see it as aids and not something I support or give two *s about.

Neither of our opinions are wrong though

Where did this come from? I don’t see myself that way at all. I enjoy conversing with many on here but the hyperbole about player movement is too much at times.

 

[ossie_21]

If Dunkley re-signs for two years, will all be forgiven? Or will we just be postponing the inevitable until he becomes an FA?

All will be forgiven, I’ll even get a tattoo of his face on one of my arse cheeks

 

[BLACAE]

In the real world, what would the rate be for employees who turn down a 20% pay rise to move companies? Probably almost zero you’d say?

And what would the rate be in the AFL? It would be pretty high I reckon? You don’t see many players move on, particularly the well paid ones.

Does this give you some idea why the comparison doesn’t work?

I gave up a 6 figure salary to re-enlist in the Army until injury forced me to call it quits. I know I would likely be in the minority in doing so, but I loved every minute in the Defence Force, the Culture, the mateship and the role I performed. If a person really loves what they do, money is not a massive factor.

 

[Mofra]

Cannot argue with that but if a player moves don't hide behind culture, different role, and I am happy here but the fact is you are not happy etc etc say it as it is I got more money and/or I will be the man in their midfield and not be in the shadows of others.

I'm not sure the AFL public is mature enough for that conversation yet. As best 'family security' gets wheeled out for more senior players.

Let's not pretend we haven't low-balled players so they look elsewhere (JJ, Dahlhaus)

 

[Del165892]

You get an occasional player whom stays completely loyal to his franchise, like a Tim Duncan, but it’s the exception to the rule.

are we sure this is a correct use of "whom"? The way im reading it, the player in this sentence is the subject, no? "He stays loyal"

D Mitchell or W W Biscuit please confirm

 

[Next Waiting]

Where did this come from? I don’t see myself that way at all. I enjoy conversing with many on here but the hyperbole about player movement is too much at times.

Agree completely. As long as they (the players) fulfill they're professional obligations whilst on the payroll all well and good. The problem as I see it, is that many fail to realise that AFL teams are more franchise than club these days. It is what is.

The way to insulate yourself from the inevitable defections of players from one club to another for any number of reasons is to attach yourself to the colours and the team, as it is, for that season. Speculate all you want about what might be or might have been.

Of course, the gnashing of teeth and the idea of being snubbed by a player for another club, the opportunity to boo them at the next opportunity and so on is all part of the rich tapestry and theatrical surrounds of the game we love. Love the game.

 

[inyourfacedunk]

I gave up a 6 figure salary to re-enlist in the Army until injury forced me to call it quits. I know I would likely be in the minority in doing so, but I loved every minute in the Defence Force, the Culture, the mateship and the role I performed. If a person really loves what they do, money is not a massive factor.

He wouldn't be quitting footy though. And he'd be playing in his favourite role. Full time.
Having said that, I hope he stays. While others see his value as a trade target, I personally see his value as a player for the club.

 

[hutchy31]

Interesting reading the past few pages. I'm generally more on the side of recognising that it's a job for the players, they have a fairly short career at AFL level and therefore should do what they like in terms of club movement if it's for genuine reasons (money being one of them). What's annoying is when some explanations get trotted out because they're more palatable than the actual reason - e.g. I'm moving for better opportunity/playing in preferred position (actually it's because I'm getting another $150k a year).

As for Dunkley, now the situation has occurred twice in a few years I think it's logical for all parties for him to leave. He can be better paid elsewhere in a role that he feels is more suited to him, and while he'll be difficult to replace at least we'll get something half-decent in return and it is an area of the list that we do have reasonable depth (even if his like-for-like replacement in 2023 might not be quite as good). I'm fairly pragmatic about all this normally and I'm fairly tired of hearing about the constant trade speculation, so unless he wants to sign on long-term then maybe best if he heads off.

 

[immortalmike]

For context, I have significant background in professional sports acquisitions and back of house operational roles within sporting codes as well as a limited amount of sports management background, albeit I no longer work in any of these roles now.

I can tell you that they (clubs) are all operated as a business and the players are seen as employees just as any company sees their own employees in any other professional sense.

Yes, it’s a hard comparison because of the salary discrepancy but a regular job doesn’t have a time bomb attached to it. 3 years is what an average player gets on a list. That’s a short life span. 12 years if you’re really *ing good. In a regualr business, you don’t get fired for being over 30. In this business, the AFL, you do.

If Dunks chooses to move for a 20% payrise and a more favourable role that suits his skill set, let the bloke do it. He has 5-7 years left in the game to maximise his income and earning potential. He owes the club nothing. Literally nothing. He’s fulfilled his current contractual obligations. You can be salty he asked out of his current contract a few years ago but in reality, he saw it through and no harm was done.

Supporters need to grow up and realise you support a team. The loyalty is with THE TEAM. You get attached to players but they’re employees and they move on like other employees in other companies and other codes.

Look at the NBA for a more developed sense of supporter base. They either support the franchise as a whole or you follow your favourite players around the league as they maximise their earning potential In an incredibly short window. You get an occasional player whom stays completely loyal to his franchise, like a Tim Duncan, but it’s the exception to the rule.

This view will be the death of a club like ours.
Why bother continuing to support a small club in a competition only three states in a backwater country care about?

I've always found that football is about romanticism. About feeling. It's the reason for the father-son rule. We care about those names. A Liberatore or a West or a Darcy playing anywhere else would be a travesty.

If you take the emotion out of the game for the players then what do you have? A jumper that has changed 100 odd times and a small regional location. Not exactly a recipe for long term survival.

 

[Bald]

Is it possible that the truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle?

Josh Dunkley

5

Josh Dunkley

Age

28

Ht

191cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.8

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

7.0

3star

HB

13.7

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

was likely justified to request a trade, supporters are justified to be frustrated at him playing hardball twice.

There'll always be players like Jack Macrae and Marcus Bontempelli

4

Marcus Bontempelli

Age

30

Ht

194cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.5

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

10.3

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

4.8

5star

CL

4.4

5star

D

18.4

4star

K

9.7

4star

HB

8.8

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

4.1

5star

CL

4.0

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

5.8

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.8

5star

CL

1.8

4star

that embody the club, we can't accept everyone to be of that mindset. That too, isn't an ideal environment.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

This view will be the death of a club like ours.
Why bother continuing to support a small club in a competition only three states in a backwater country care about?

I've always found that football is about romanticism. About feeling. It's the reason for the father-son rule. We care about those names. A Liberatore or a West or a Darcy playing anywhere else would be a travesty.

If you take the emotion out of the game for the players then what do you have? A jumper that has changed 100 odd times and a small regional location. Not exactly a recipe for long term survival.

Ironically we are talking about Dunkley. A Swans father son. And we've passed up on our own too in recent times.

I agree footy has an emotional/romantic element no doubt. But there is a middle ground here where you're both right. Ideally loyalties stay but they can't be expected to no matter what. These guys are elite performers with a 5 to 15 year window to make hay.

 

[footscray1973]

For context, I have significant background in professional sports acquisitions and back of house operational roles within sporting codes as well as a limited amount of sports management background, albeit I no longer work in any of these roles now.

I can tell you that they (clubs) are all operated as a business and the players are seen as employees just as any company sees their own employees in any other professional sense.

Yes, it’s a hard comparison because of the salary discrepancy but a regular job doesn’t have a time bomb attached to it. 3 years is what an average player gets on a list. That’s a short life span. 12 years if you’re really *ing good. In a regualr business, you don’t get fired for being over 30. In this business, the AFL, you do.

If Dunks chooses to move for a 20% payrise and a more favourable role that suits his skill set, let the bloke do it. He has 5-7 years left in the game to maximise his income and earning potential. He owes the club nothing. Literally nothing. He’s fulfilled his current contractual obligations. You can be salty he asked out of his current contract a few years ago but in reality, he saw it through and no harm was done.

Supporters need to grow up and realise you support a team. The loyalty is with THE TEAM. You get attached to players but they’re employees and they move on like other employees in other companies and other codes.

Look at the NBA for a more developed sense of supporter base. They either support the franchise as a whole or you follow your favourite players around the league as they maximise their earning potential In an incredibly short window. You get an occasional player whom stays completely loyal to his franchise, like a Tim Duncan, but it’s the exception to the rule.

I don't disagree with some parts of this, but I take umbrage at "Look at the NBA for a more developed sense of supporter base".

Our supporter base development is just fine - AFL is NOT the NBA. What you call more developed I see as devalued. The beauty of our game has been that, by and large, players tend to remain loyal to a club, allowing for the fact that they are compensated more these days accordingly for that.

That last paragraph is what is inherently wrong with the large sports around the world. It is not a good thing, even if it is slowly happening here. You might like because you're in the business - I detest it.

And telling supporters (i.e. posters on this forum) they "need to grow up" is straight out condescending.

 

[Del165892]

I'm fully supportive of all player's movements and I'll never begrudge any of them for leaving. I'll be sad when we lose good ones like Dunks, but when one player leaves a new one always comes in. There's as many reasons to be happy about player movements as there are to be sad. I think being comfortable with change and not getting TOO attached to the players is key. Just be grateful for the time that we had them for and wish them the best. It doesn't mean you're not as passionate about footy to feel that way. Obviously sport naturally leads to feelings of tribalism, and maybe that's part of the allure, but don't get sucked into it to the point that it makes you feel bitter.