Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Mighty Lions]

If you’re not popping a gasket, perhaps don’t start your posts in all caps as it makes you look really angry.

If you’ve gone back and have had another look and still don’t get it, I don’t think I can help you. Maybe just eat a snickers and come back tomorrow.

Snickers gives me gas.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

I know Matt Rendell was rubbed out for suggesting this a few years ago but are clubs going to look past young indigenous players who are going through troubles in fear of being wrapped up in litigation now? I'm a tigers supporter and have been proud of the ongoing effort the the club continues to put into Sydney Stack despite some ongoing struggles. Are young players with any issues simply going to be left behind now from a media risk management perspective? (Apologies for crashing your board just reading some different perspectives on the situation)

It's a long bow to draw at this stage without all the details a thorough investigation would bring to light but you make a valid point.

I truly believe the media has and will create a greater divide between the races in the AFL landscape now, through their initial reckless and unbalanced framing of the leaked review.

We are starting to see more information come to light to suggest that this was not race related, but unfortunately a juicy race related story in the AFL and the prospective ratings was the only thing they saw.

They had no care for how this would play out for the first nations people in the review and how this could impact future issues of racism in the AFL and they had no care for people who had to bare the accusations without due process.

I just hope that the mess that the ABC created around the racism accusations, doesn't distract us from the still serious issues of governance in the AFL and the civil rights and liberties of players in the AFL no matter what there race is, cause these are the question marks that still remain unanswered in this particular situation.

 

[Section 5]

Kennett said the people interviewed for the report had requested confidentiality and Hawthorn respected that.

"Sadly, they made a decision to talk to the press ... they named people with whom they had very real issues," he said.

"That was unfair to those (people), so therefore we need to have this resolved.

"I don't see this is as a crisis - I know this club, I know its history and I know its strength.
......
At the end of his speech, Kennett again insisted the Hawks would "overcome" the issue.

"Understand this as being a bump along the highway, but ... it is an important bump and it has to be dealt with professionally," he said.

'I do not consider this to be a crisis': Kennett on Hawks report

Hawthorn president Jeff Kennett says he was flabbergasted - and worse by the club's external review but hopes for a resolution by the end of the year

www.afl.com.au

 

[BrizzyBandit]

Add another 6 months to any resolution now. I think this is going to be well and truly taken out of the AFL's hands

Sadly this has become political now.

The virtue signalling on this board is nothing compared to what the media and politicians do with it.

This review isn't about the truth.


The only thing that has become clear and undeniable is that Fagen won't coach us again

 

[western royboy]

Sadly this has become political now.

The virtue signalling on this board is nothing compared to what the media and politicians do with it.

This review isn't about the truth.


The only thing that has become clear and undeniable is that Fagen won't coach us again

What is it about o wise one? Please tell us inferior beings who don’t share your intellect

 

[BrizzyBandit]

As someone who has indigenous relatives, I cannot begin to describe some of the dysfunction that exists in first nation communities.

The cyclical violence, abuse, and mayhem that occurs is truly terrible.

As a nation we haven't solved much, yet we're about to persecute 2 or 3 AFL coaches to make ourselves feel better.

It's a joke. These politicians jump in to destroy a few lives of men who have had to try and work through this stuff..... but ignore what's happening at a national level. It's pathetic.

 

[lioninthesand]

As someone who has indigenous relatives, I cannot begin to describe some of the dysfunction that exists in first nation communities.

The cyclical violence, abuse, and mayhem that occurs is truly terrible.

As a nation we haven't solved much, yet we're about to persecute 2 or 3 AFL coaches to make ourselves feel better.

It's a joke. These politicians jump in to destroy a few lives of men who have had to try and work through this stuff..... but ignore what's happening at a national level. It's pathetic.

Can we not continue the the ‘competition over who knows the most indigenous people’ that started last night. It’s really ‘I’m not racist but’, ‘I’ve got indigenous mates so’ - it doesen’t somehow give your opinion more credibility or excuse a persons questionable position on these matters, its also very cringe.

 

[M Malice]

Yeah I’ve read that article. Reads like a more moderate version of whats been alleged.

On the one hand it might prove he did it to everyone, but by virtue, isn’t that then also suggesting he is likely to have actually done what they alleging?

I think it’s a silly focus by supporters of the accused, at this point, aren’t we not yet sure this behaviour even occurred?

The fact as implied, ‘it was happening to everyone’ isn’t going to save Fagans job.

I think it will save Fagan's job if there is found to be no racism involved in the behaviour. Also Viceregal post #2116 in this thread sums up my views on it perfectly.

 

[western royboy]

As someone who has indigenous relatives, I cannot begin to describe some of the dysfunction that exists in first nation communities.

The cyclical violence, abuse, and mayhem that occurs is truly terrible.

As a nation we haven't solved much, yet we're about to persecute 2 or 3 AFL coaches to make ourselves feel better.

It's a joke. These politicians jump in to destroy a few lives of men who have had to try and work through this stuff..... but ignore what's happening at a national level. It's pathetic.

Respectfully, I do not share your views and that is not the issue at play here. I can only hope the SouthoftheYarra doesn’t read any of your postings

 

[spotthedog1]

Sadly this has become political now.

The virtue signalling on this board is nothing compared to what the media and politicians do with it.

This review isn't about the truth.


The only thing that has become clear and undeniable is that Fagen won't coach us again

Undeniable that Fagan won't coach us again? I'll take that bet.

He stood down voluntarily. He was told it would be a 6-8 week timeline. My money - at 8 weeks, he will come out with a statement of:

"I voluntarily stood down on the basis of a 6-8 week AFL investigation. That basis has now passed and it is clear that this isn't going to be resolved for months or years. I respect the process, and want the truth to be found, but of course no one could possibly expect people not found guilty of anything to be prevented from being employed for years on end. We should all agree that that is not justice. As such, I'm stepping back into my role, and will start on day 1 of the preseason. I will continue to be part of the process over the next months or years, and expect the truth to be revealed in time. I absolutely maintain that i am innocent of any of allegations, and expect due process to vindicate that."

There you go. Denied.

 

[lioninthesand]

I think it will save Fagan's job if there is found to be no racism involved in the behaviour. Also Viceregal post #2116 in this thread sums up my views on it perfectly.

We will agree to disagree on that.
If the accusations in the review are substantiated and proven to have occurred to a number of indigenous players in their care, the fact other likely more moderate examples occurred to non indigenous players will not save their jobs.

Think about that being the outcome, ‘it did happen to these familes, but it also happened to others and was way more widespread so we will be reinstating them as coaches, no further action required’.

I’d say just stick with the ‘it probably didn’t happen’ angle TBH, because this new emerging defence is terrible on so many levels.

 

[lioninthesand]

Undeniable that Fagan won't coach us again? I'll take that bet.

He stood down voluntarily. He was told it would be a 6-8 week timeline. My money - at 8 weeks, he will come out with a statement of:

"I voluntarily stood down on the basis of a 6-8 week AFL investigation. That basis has now passed and it is clear that this isn't going to be resolved for months or years. I respect the process, and want the truth to be found, but of course no one could possibly expect people not found guilty of anything to be prevented from being employed for years on end. We should all agree that that is not justice. As such, I'm stepping back into my role, and will start on day 1 of the preseason. I will continue to be part of the process over the next months or years, and expect the truth to be revealed in time. I absolutely maintain that i am innocent of any of allegations, and expect due process to vindicate that."

There you go. Denied.

I desperately want Fages back as coach and I think there is a way back fir him, if there can be a middle ground found and an approach of learning rather than burning can be adopted.

However, if he was reinstated as head coach with this investigation ongoing, that would be extremely difficult.

Can you imagine him coaching, everytime there is a new leak, new content of an interviewees testimony emerges, work safe findings, new evidence given - it will send shock waves through the playing group every week.

If we start losing a few games and there is new damaging info in the media that week, can you imagine the ‘Lions coach under pressure’ stuff that would emerge and blanket the club.

A new email leak and ‘Fagans screwed’, something positive ‘we can relax’, ‘Clarko did this and Fages was in the room, what does that mean’? Players would feel every new development.

If this drags on for as long as we suspect, having a head coach and a playing group intrinsically attached to a process like that could have a really damaging long term effect.

If it is 8 weeks or even into preseason, no worries, but if there is no end in sight round 1, I’d be putting an interim coach in place (from the current assistant group) and just say ‘Fages, you’re our man, but take 12 months to deal with this’ then if all works out and his position is seen as tenable, recontract him for 3 years - starting 2024.

going in with this hanging over his head is completely untenable, he won’t do it anyway, he won’t want to subject the group to it.

 

[Saucery]

This might open a can of worms, but when Leigh Matthews brought all the wives in and told them they couldn't have sex or had to abstain during certain times of the season so it didn't disrupt the season with player unavailability.

Wouldn't this be considered the same sort of "control" or "abuse" of human rights or civil liability?
Definitely not a workplace appropriate directive, wouldn't you say?
And if so, why aren't we talking or making something of this behaviour?


I don't see this current situation as a race issue.
A morality issue, most definitely and definitely a football governance issue and perhaps a civil rights issue.

This is only a race issue at this point in time because only first nations people have been reviewed and their stories told so far.

IF and I say if, once everyone on the playing list, coaching staff and football department have been interviewed and heard and IF they find that this treatment was in isolation of the first nations people on that list and club.....only then can this be deemed as a racial issue.

Truth be told it doesn't matter a toss what the colour of their skin is, if this sort of crap happened to any person regardless of race, creed, gender or standing and is proven, then the perpetrators should be stripped of there jobs and have a massive case to answer

Yes and can you imagine the response such an edict would elicit today? And that's the point, we have come a long way but have much still to do. It's encouraging we can discuss such things openly and honestly. To quote Jeff this is not a crisis but a bump along the road, I think it's some where closer to a chronic crisis than an acute bump but still neither in total.

 

[nup]

Can we not continue the the ‘competition over who knows the most indigenous people’ that started last night. It’s really ‘I’m not racist but’, ‘I’ve got indigenous mates so’ - it doesen’t somehow give your opinion more credibility or excuse a persons questionable position on these matters, its also very cringe.

No it's not

 

[SizeMatters]

Fagan is one person who can say he has worked with indigenous people over many years.

Anyone else on this thread who can say the same let us know now so we know you're not just throwing your opinions out there.

I'm First Nation and my family have a strong First Nation connection back home in BNE (father's cousin is an elder in the community) and have volunteered a ton of my own time and money to helping First Nations communities in Canberra. I've experienced the generational trauma from the moment I was born. From generational substance abuse to father's (thankfully not mine) who bailed on responsibilities or end up in prison. I was the first person to finish high school, finish uni and get a 'career' job in my whole family. This was in only 6 years ago ffs.

The disgusting things that have been raised in that review is nothing I have ever experienced in my life. the Hawthorn football club have been tainted either way with that ******* racist prick Kennett still having a say over things. Vile human being stuck in the 50s.

 

[Sausages]

Add another 6 months to any resolution now. I think this is going to be well and truly taken out of the AFL's hands

Excellent news

Yes, it makes Fages coaching us next season that more difficult - but, my concern is and remains the reputation and potential legacy of Fages beyond just our coaching problem.

The more people poking around in the darkened halls of this issue, the better imo.

I'm still backing Fages, all the way.

 

[SizeMatters]

I hope this review of the review is thorough. Gut feel is the AFL will somehow brush this under the carpet as much as they can so the 'brand' isn't tarnished too much while the victims are left to dry out.

 

[Saucery]

Add another 6 months to any resolution now. I think this is going to be well and truly taken out of the AFL's hands

So, I'm guessing Work Safe will take way longer in their investigation as it will need to be legally rigorous in its findings.

Six months?

More?

The chance of any of the suspended returning before pre season, or even the season proper begins, seems ever more remote.

I know everyone at the club will pull together to cover Fagan's absence and the fans will stand fast.

I hope we can find some way to cover what will be a great loss, at least in the short term.

But I also hope it will galvanise the playing group to new heights.

 

[dlanod]

As someone who has indigenous relatives, I cannot begin to describe some of the dysfunction that exists in first nation communities.

The cyclical violence, abuse, and mayhem that occurs is truly terrible.

As a nation we haven't solved much, yet we're about to persecute 2 or 3 AFL coaches to make ourselves feel better.

It's a joke. These politicians jump in to destroy a few lives of men who have had to try and work through this stuff..... but ignore what's happening at a national level. It's pathetic.

Obviously we should do nothing in this scenario until all other problems are solved. That will guarantee improvement.

 

[Sausages]

So, I'm guessing Work Safe will take way longer in their investigation as it will need to be legally rigorous in its findings.

Six months?

More?

The chance of any of the suspended returning before pre season, or even the season proper begins, seems ever more remote.

I know everyone at the club will pull together to cover Fagan's absence and the fans will stand fast.

I hope we can find some way to cover what will be a great loss, at least in the short term.

But I also hope it will galvanise the playing group to new heights.

Aye, that last point is where I hope we can derive some club-wide resolve.

For if Fages is unable to satisfactorily explain his role in the allegations, sufficient that critics really have little or no basis for arguing otherwise, then the negative impact on our players could be catastrophic.

 

[Squizz89]

Yeah I’m not sure how he could return whilst all this plays out in the background.

Looking at this through a purely Brisbane Lions club perspective for a moment. We are a team in a flag window, who are bringing in a number of high profile recruits to hopefully take us the next step. We can’t have that undermined by a number of processes/investigations going on behind the scenes with our coach.

I would hope (& think) even Fages would agree with that.

 

[Sausages]

Yeah I’m not sure how he could return whilst all this plays out in the background.

Looking at this through a purely Brisbane Lions club perspective for a moment. We are a team in a flag window, who are bringing in a number of high profile recruits to hopefully take us the next step. We can’t have that undermined by a number of processes/investigations going on behind the scenes with our coach.

I would hope (& think) even Fages would agree with that.

Aye, I believe Fages will know when the time is up. He won't sacrifice the dreams of 22 young blokes in order to satisfy his own agenda.

The only person I can see Fages throwing under the bus would be Clarko or Burt, with documented evidence that says "they went nutsoid, I tried to prevent it" (in slightly more formal language ) - and I'd reckon he'll move Heaven and Earth to avoid doing that.

But ultimately, he may have no choice.

 

[spotthedog1]

I desperately want Fages back as coach and I think there is a way back fir him, if there can be a middle ground found and an approach of learning rather than burning can be adopted.

However, if he was reinstated as head coach with this investigation ongoing, that would be extremely difficult.

Can you imagine him coaching, everytime there is a new leak, new content of an interviewees testimony emerges, work safe findings, new evidence given - it will send shock waves through the playing group every week.

If we start losing a few games and there is new damaging info in the media that week, can you imagine the ‘Lions coach under pressure’ stuff that would emerge and blanket the club.

A new email leak and ‘Fagans screwed’, something positive ‘we can relax’, ‘Clarko did this and Fages was in the room, what does that mean’? Players would feel every new development.

If this drags on for as long as we suspect, having a head coach and a playing group intrinsically attached to a process like that could have a really damaging long term effect.

If it is 8 weeks or even into preseason, no worries, but if there is no end in sight round 1, I’d be putting an interim coach in place (from the current assistant group) and just say ‘Fages, you’re our man, but take 12 months to deal with this’ then if all works out and his position is seen as tenable, recontract him for 3 years - starting 2024.

going in with this hanging over his head is completely untenable, he won’t do it anyway, he won’t want to subject the group to it.

I think the initial investigation for this to be over by then, but not the saga. We'll see the AFL investigation complete or disbanded before the season. A work cover investigation by this time next year. First lawsuits after that. Possibly player vs coach, player vs AFL, and coach vs everyone for libel. If the courts get involved, add 2-3 years. Seriously - that's the time court cases take at the moment.

If either Fagan or Clarkson are stood down by their clubs, expect a lawsuit for that too. If someone said something, and your employer suspended you for a year despite no proof or conviction, you'd sue them too.

If you're waiting for this to be over... you might be waiting a while.

 

[lioninthesand]

Obviously we should do nothing in this scenario until all other problems are solved. That will guarantee improvement.

Its the 5 step program to white people denying any wrong doing againts minorities.

Step 1- they are proably liars, I doubt a white person would do that.

Step 2 - ‘I’m not racist and have indigenous friends.. but..’.. go onto say heaps of pretty racist but semi intellectual sounding stuff.

Step 3 - it might have happened but it wasn’t that bad, happened to white people too.

Step 4 - look, it probably did happen, but there’s no point fixing this incident because there’s so much worse stuff happening on a larger scale (accusations that it won’t fix the issue, virtue signalling etc) WE ARE HERE

Step 5 - if found guilty - find ways to malign and discredit the victims (they were druggo’s, it was their fault, they are playing the victim etc)

This one is following the program to an absolute tee.

Again - I’d just advise everyone stop the defence and the attack, until we find out more.

The current defend Fagan at all costs crew are running ahead of the story and casting clumsy judgements that are actually hurting Fages as it stands.

 

[Sausages]

Again - I’d just advise everyone stop the defence and the attack, until we find out more.

The current defend Fagan at all costs crew are running ahead of the story and casting clumsy judgements that are actually hurting Fages as it stands.

Well, tbf lioninthesand that response is usually a knee-jerk reaction to perceived attacks on Fages.

There has been a media pile-on and to this point, the accused haven't put forward anything other than statements of intention to defend.

It's not unsurprising people who support him wish to defend in his absence.